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Tumensuns · **07-21-2015, 08:00 AM**

(07-20-2015, 11:06 PM)Lililove Wrote: Home so I could read through things a little easier then on my phone. First off...

My analogy wasn't meant to be taken literally or be super dissected. The essential message was simply that, in the end, the results are the same with just a slight difference to the method. The end result is accepted, but for me (personally) bickering over how that is achieved just causes more issues then not. By all means, people are welcome to their differing opinions! But to be dickish to those that use a method you (using 'you' in the broad, general sense) don't agree with is unacceptable. Period. It takes absolutely no effort to be a polite human being and let the person know that, while you may not agree with it, if it would be alright if you/your character overlooked it due to the conflict in lore.

Boom. There. Finished. Not many people would argue with that polite approach and most can walk away happily.

Now, I will be the first to admit as an RPer I have used fantasias ICly. Why? Because when they first became readily available over a year ago, I was one of those that looked it over and was like 'Hmmm...IC or not IC?'. Given everything is very much a fantasy setting with dragons that can make you understand their language, a superior but now mostly extinct race that were super scientific geniuses who created throngs of advanced tech, experiments, etc. (the Allagans) and a whole list of other things...well, the usage of a potion that can change your appearance seems super miniscule to me.

In the end? If you can find a good way to explain it ICly, go for it! But just be prepared that not everyone will agree too it and learn to shrug it off if someone gets super 'rawr, grawr, shaaaaame' about it. There's plenty of people who will accept it with good IC reasoning over those who won't.

It's more of a question of continuity, not people just being mean spirited. If fantasia was as readily available, then why aren't we weaponizing it(as someone had said earlier in this thread)? Or why haven't we seen instances of it in the main story? Sure would have helped with the whole Ul'dah thing if we could just change form.

It's fantasy, but all fantasy is usually grounded by reality. We still follow the laws of gravity, for example. Without any sort of continuity, what exactly is stopping us from being cyborg werewolf demons? Or a jedi? or Bill Murray?

This is not some sleight to be dickish, or whatever you want to call people who ask for a little bit of credibility, just a general inquiry of where exactly does the line get drawn between being apart of the universe created by the developers, and going against it.

FreelanceWizard · **07-21-2015, 08:55 AM**

(07-21-2015, 08:00 AM)Tumensuns Wrote: It's more of a question of continuity, not people just being mean spirited. If fantasia was as readily available, then why aren't we weaponizing it(as someone had said earlier in this thread)? Or why haven't we seen instances of it in the main story? Sure would have helped with the whole Ul'dah thing if we could just change form.

Because, as Fernehalwes said at the London Fan Fest, Fantasia can only turn you into what you (the drinker) actually really feel that you truly are and truly want to be. So, it can't be used as a weapon, to facilitate crime, to escape danger, and so on; it simply doesn't work that way. It just lets you transform yourself into the thing you want to be deep in your heart.

Now, sure, you can argue that he was just being playful with an answer and that the fact that it never shows up in the MSQ is an argument against its existence, but IMO, there's enough "cover" at this point to justify Fantasia's existence, as well as enough lore regarding its rarity to justify people being quite skeptical about it ICly (though don't forget full body glamours, which show up in several quest lines).

Gegenji · **07-21-2015, 09:07 AM**

(07-21-2015, 08:55 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: Because, as Fernehalwes said at the London Fan Fest, Fantasia can only turn you into what you (the drinker) actually really feel that you truly are and truly want to be. So, it can't be used as a weapon, to facilitate crime, to escape danger, and so on; it simply doesn't work that way. It just lets you transform yourself into the thing you want to be deep in your heart.

It hasn't been used that way, though. Fantasia potions I've seen (from outside, in passing and such rather than actual interactions) used in RP were usually boiled down to little more than "Oops, I accidentally drank this and I'm a Lalafell." It's nothing about the person being a Lalafell deep down - and they can change back just as easily - which kinda conflicts with Ferne's explanation.

That said (and I think I've mentioned it before, either in this thread or elsewhere), I have nothing against the use of Fantasia in an IC sense. As long as it fits the story and character being presented to me. If the event is supposed to be lighthearted and goofy and not altogether serious, a "whoops we're all Miqo'te" arc could be in good fun. It's just when Fantasia is being used solely as a cop-out that I would have issue - no reason for being the race in a permanent sense beyond "I drank a Fantasia." Even just putting in a bit about feeling out of place and some strange merchant gave you a vial that brought out "your true self" would help some.

Of course, there's plenty of other options too - being cursed by Sylphs or some witch or something. The aforementioned glamours and Fantasia just being an OOC way to facilitate all that. However, again, how well I'll take it when it's presented to me is wholly dependent on said presentation. And I continually mention "presented to me" because it really only will matter if it's something I'm dealing with, right? No real need for concern about what Gordon the Hyur-turned-Roe's deal is if I never interact with him.

Or something. I could just be rambling. I do that sometimes. Blush

FreelanceWizard · **07-21-2015, 09:19 AM**

(07-21-2015, 09:07 AM)Gegenji Wrote:
(07-21-2015, 08:55 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: Because, as Fernehalwes said at the London Fan Fest, Fantasia can only turn you into what you (the drinker) actually really feel that you truly are and truly want to be. So, it can't be used as a weapon, to facilitate crime, to escape danger, and so on; it simply doesn't work that way. It just lets you transform yourself into the thing you want to be deep in your heart.

It hasn't been used that way, though. Fantasia potions I've seen (from outside, in passing and such rather than actual interactions) used in RP were usually boiled down to little more than "Oops, I accidentally drank this and I'm a Lalafell." It's nothing about the person being a Lalafell deep down - and they can change back just as easily - which kinda conflicts with Ferne's explanation.

I'm definitely not in favor of the "oopsie! I've changed my race all of a sudden!" use of Fantasia, because as you note, that also goes against what Fernehalwes said -- unless, I suppose, your character's deep-down desire is to be a constantly shifting being with no clear identity.

I suppose I'm more willing to defend Fantasia and similar artifice because the two times I've been near its use ICly, it's been part of long-term character development arcs, there's been significant consequences involved, and the people involved were fine with the IC skepticism being tossed their way.

Personally, I like the idea of someone feeling out of place, like they're a hyur trapped in a auri body, waking up one morning to find a mysterious vial near their bed with a card that says, "Drink me Smile

". Where did it come from? Who made it? It made your life better since you drank it, but its provenance is mysterious.

Lilia Lia · **07-21-2015, 09:22 AM**

(07-21-2015, 09:07 AM)Gegenji Wrote: It's just when Fantasia is being used solely as a cop-out that I would have issue - no reason for being the race in a permanent sense beyond "I drank a Fantasia." Even just putting in a bit about feeling out of place and some strange merchant gave you a vial that brought out "your true self" would help some.

In a funny way, I actually find it easier to deal with people whose IC Fantasia has an "oops" explanation than people who make it a major part of their story.Â When it boils down to it, no matter how much time and effort people put into their "How I IC Fantasia'd" story, the grand majority of people are really changing their race for OOC reasons, and adjusting their IC stories thereafter.Â "This new race looks neat, I want to Fantasia into one, but I need to find a way to make it work with my story..."Â At least this is the case with every IC Fantasia I've ever seen.

So in that way they tend to be kind of immersion-breaking.Â It's like when an actor in a soap opera quits so the writers have to come up with some explanation for why they aren't there anymore.Â It will always feel kind of disingenuous.Â

Anyways, the "oops" stories are easier to cope with because people in those situations are more willing to just not talk about it, whereas some people who choose to RP their race change will inevitably make it part of a huge portion of all of their RP, so it's harder for people who aren't open to that kind of thing.

Gegenji · **07-21-2015, 09:31 AM**

(07-21-2015, 09:22 AM)Lilia Lia Wrote:
(07-21-2015, 09:07 AM)Gegenji Wrote: It's just when Fantasia is being used solely as a cop-out that I would have issue - no reason for being the race in a permanent sense beyond "I drank a Fantasia." Even just putting in a bit about feeling out of place and some strange merchant gave you a vial that brought out "your true self" would help some.

In a funny way, I actually find it easier to deal with people whose IC Fantasia has an "oops" explanation than people who make it a major part of their story.Â When it boils down to it, no matter how much time and effort people put into their "How I IC Fantasia'd" story, the grand majority of people are really changing their race for OOC reasons, and adjusting their IC stories thereafter.Â "This new race looks neat, I want to Fantasia into one, but I need to find a way to make it work with my story..."Â At least this is the case with every IC Fantasia I've ever seen.

Is it any worse than the other way around, though? Someone suddenly retconning their entire history to say that they were always this race? Being glamoured the entire time and not knowing it, possibly even having false family and false memories of a past that is suddenly in-congruent with the "revelation"? These sorts of explanations have the same potential to be just as immersion-breaking as a "How I IC Fantasia'd" story. Which is why I put emphasis on the overall presentation and how it is worked - I'm sure both could be done fabulously well just as much as they can be done terribly - so I try to take them on a case-by-case basis and seek to avoid any sweeping generalizations if I can manage it.

I suppose the issue is and always will be that this is ultimately an OOC cosmetic item that folks seek to use and explain in RP. It just became a hot topic of discussion lately due to the advent of an entirely new race. And, due to the overall alt-unfriendliness of the game, people sought easier ways to explain why their character was suddenly scaly. New jobs are easier to explain and work around from an RP standpoint. An entirely new race? Not so much.

Cato · **07-21-2015, 09:41 AM**

Accidental double post. >_>

Cato · **07-21-2015, 09:45 AM**

I'm not really sure what to make of the 'polite human being' comment. Poor choice in wording, perhaps? I'd quite like more clarification since after taking another look through the last few pages I can't see anyone being mean.

Nobody is saying 'you can't do this'. They're pointing out as Â - polite human beings - that role-players who use fantasia shouldn't be terribly surprised if other role-players are uncomfortable with the idea of acknowledging it.

It's a matter of personal preference and to be honest I'm starting to get a bit weary of the implication (intentional or otherwise) that someone is 'mean' or 'not a team player' for valuing a good story above appeasing every little whim that another role-player happens to have.

Debates like this are interesting. They stop things from stagnating and we're dealing with a very diverse community. I'd rather see everybody bring their opinions to the table instead of going down the route of never speaking out against anything ever.

Personally speaking I don't feel the need to lace my every word with sugar. Will I try to be polite? Certainly - but in my experience quite a lot of role-players are drawn to drama and will kick up a fuss even when someone explains to them, politely, that they're really not interested in acknowledging some of the more bizarre ideas that the more colourful character concepts revolve around.

Admittedly I may be being a tad defensive here - so apologies if so - but it's a major pet peeve of mine. Hence the rant!

Manari · **07-21-2015, 09:48 AM**

This all happened back at the end of 1.0 and the beginning of 2.0 when they added male Miqo'te. Many people were already playing either a midlander model or a female Miqo'te model but RPing that they were male Miqo'te. But even more people just suddenly became male Miqo'te seemingly at random with the OOC explanation of "I always wanted to be male Miqo'te, it just wasn't added yet."

This was even before any kind of fantasia or character changing item was added in game. This was all using a one-time character redesign that SE offered all 1.0 players the first time they logged into 2.0, so there wasn't even an "is this IC'ly possible" argument. It was just a lot of arguing about how its silly that so many people are suddenly a completely different gender or race. But yet again, it was all due to a shiny new race being added... or at least a shiny new gender to a race.

Momo · **07-25-2015, 04:32 PM**

One of the things I think is fascinating in this instance is the fight for transracial characters, and the fact that it is possible to be one.Â Now as a person who leans towards heavy RP, I personally don't like IC Fantasia use, as I tend to ignore it exists at all as a character (nor would I ever have a reason to change from being a Lala...because well, hello, Lalafell duh best yo!), but I have seen it used in instances where it was part of a plot that I felt was acceptable and supported by lore, however they didn't state it was a Fantasia, and was more of a curse which was placed upon them.

Whatever the case, I agree in this case that for the most part, a great deal of RPers are not going to support a race change with Fantasia, and for good reason.Â The potion itself was placed in the game for OOC of character reasons, and is used to change characters for OOC reasons in general and then made to fit.Â This isn't the best approach to a race change for me, if one wants to change their character, then make a new character as a main and make a new story to go with that character, if one would like to keep a character they already have and retcon that background to being a different race, then do that, and I think you will be better accepted than using a scapegoat to justify your OOC decisions to race change.

Otherwise, I say make an alt first of that character, play it for a while, see what you think before you make this kind of decision, which assuming you love your character...is a big one!Â Then accept that you will be choosing to call some of your RP cred in question, because whether you like it or not, it is clear that is what may be a consequence of this choice.

(Am I the king of run-ons?Â Me finks, yus...yus I am!)

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Fantasia usage ICly?

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