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Caspar · **09-03-2015, 06:20 PM**

Sohm Al is not hard per se, but the boss is tricky until you recognize the small circle that appears right before chaos blast. I think it is not so difficult people leave without attempting it like Pharos.

LiadansWhisper · **09-04-2015, 12:32 PM**

(09-03-2015, 06:20 PM)Caspar Wrote: Sohm Al is not hard per se, but the boss is tricky until you recognize the small circle that appears right before chaos blast. I think it is not so difficult people leave without attempting it like Pharos.

I'm not saying it is. Â I'm just saying that there's a limit on how hard they can make a random dungeon and avoid a large number of groups having issues. Â Even then, you may still have issues because you get a player who just doesn't understand how to play.

Oli! · **09-04-2015, 12:38 PM**

(09-03-2015, 12:44 PM)Telluride Wrote: there is no one Playerbase

I've always maintained that the idea of the One True Playerbase is a construct proposed to get people to design the game the way they want it to be designed.

No group will like all of the same things, even among a group that still likes a commonÂ thing, such as a game.

Telluride · **09-04-2015, 12:55 PM**

(09-04-2015, 12:32 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(09-03-2015, 06:20 PM)Caspar Wrote: Sohm Al is not hard per se, but the boss is tricky until you recognize the small circle that appears right before chaos blast. I think it is not so difficult people leave without attempting it like Pharos.

I'm not saying it is. Â I'm just saying that there's a limit on how hard they can make a random dungeon and avoid a large number of groups having issues. Â Even then, you may still have issues because you get a player who just doesn't understand how to play.

In my view, this hearkens right back to that gating issue we keep circling around. In short, if a dungeon is hard, but isn't required for advancing into other, unrelated things to do, then no problem. If a dungeon is hard, and locks story/main/unrelated/exploration content behind, then the problem arises.

It's why many people still cringe at getting Aurum Vale in the DF. Do most people know how to do it? Sure. Do we WANT to? Well, I sure as #$@%# don't. I still kind of resent that the game literally locks HOUSING behind that dungeon, since housing requires one to make max level in one's Grand Company, and there are not one, but TWO quests for Grand Companies that say, no Aurum Vale, no GC promotion, no housing for you.

It's one thing to require completing dungeons to be allowed to do more challenging raids - those things require the same skillsets to be done well with others. But... Housing?

Now, I'd concur that there's an issue for people wanting to do dungeons but being incapable of following basic directions, though; that messes things up for everyone. But this is part and parcel of FFXIV's mechanism for recycling content as long as possible. If a veteran player wants this or that reward/token, he or she may have to volunteer to do old stuff, and this requirement keeps newer players able to find parties and progress through required content - that's what the Duty Finder is designed to do. It's frankly a great way of making sure that it remains possible for people to progress/build new characters/classes, true, but it's set up so that said veterans can't even pick a single dungeon and say, "I hate that @#$@$#: I'll do any dungeon but that one."

So, we can blame players for being incompetent when they are, for better or for worse, but we're also looking at the very core design that SE has created with this game, which basically puts existing players in service to newer ones, to help them get through required content so that SE doesn't have to do so much work WITH that old content, nor have to come up with more palatable content for older areas.

We aren't just players for ourselves, the game says - we're in service to each other and saving work for the devs. That may be outside of the scope of this thread, though, to really discuss.

Caspar · **09-04-2015, 01:26 PM**

(09-04-2015, 12:38 PM)Oli! Wrote:
(09-03-2015, 12:44 PM)Telluride Wrote: there is no one Playerbase

I've always maintained that the idea of the One True Playerbase is a construct proposed to get people to design the game the way they want it to be designed.

No group will like all of the same things, even among a group that still likes a commonÂ thing, such as a game.

I do kinda agree, it's a bit of a buzzword. Yet there is something to be said for encouraging certain kinds of player behavior.Â

I think the purpose of doing hard content should correlate to the reward. I do think it's sorta dumb that aurum vale is a wall against housing, though it came out long before, so that was clearly unintentional. But say, I would be disappointed if to level crafters I needed unique untradeable mats from Vale. I actually like that dungeon; it's the people who attempt it and leave midway with their tails between their legs (sorry miqote) that ruin it.
That being said, I still think there should have been a gradual ramp up in difficulty in main content. There seems to be a notable jump around steps and the chrysalis, rather than a gradual increase, and a quick drop back down to trivial.

Warren Castille · **09-04-2015, 01:44 PM**

I was glad they nerfed Omega Weapon in FF8 once FF9 came out. I didn't want to have to gather a bunch of Holy Wars and stuff to get my Proof of Omega. /flimsystrawman

Housing isn't really a good example of a content lock. It requires you to do a shitty dungeon, yes, and it also requires you to have several millions of gil to acquire the thing. If some newbie player can't find help or the desire to ask someone to assist them, they're pretty likely to not have stumbled onto a fortune on top of things.

If you're talking FC rooms, which only cost 300k, I have to wonder why it's such a big deal to ask someone to unsync a lv60 and just steamroll it for you in a few minutes. If you're in an FC that won't do that for you, are you sure you want to spend 300k to be locked to them?

Telluride · **09-04-2015, 01:56 PM**

(09-04-2015, 01:44 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: If you're talking FC rooms, which only cost 300k, I have to wonder why it's such a big deal to ask someone to unsync a lv60 and just steamroll it for you in a few minutes. If you're in an FC that won't do that for you, are you sure you want to spend 300k to be locked to them?

I'll grant you that point. We've already brought up most of the content locks in other threads, so it seemed a fresh example, though one could just as well ask why rooms/houses should be GC Rank-locked at all, for that matter, at which point it stops being about difficulty and starts being about time investment, which is a completely different discussion, and one I imagine we'll probably be much more in agreement over.

Warren Castille · **09-04-2015, 02:03 PM**

(09-04-2015, 01:56 PM)Telluride Wrote: I'll grant you that point. We've already brought up most of the content locks in other threads, so it seemed a fresh example, though one could just as well ask why rooms/houses should be GC Rank-locked at all, for that matter, at which point it stops being about difficulty and starts being about time investment, which is a completely different discussion, and one I imagine we'll probably be much more in agreement over.

The challenge then becomes "what is this new person doing with their time if they aren't playing the game?" Ranking up at your GC is something you may or may not be doing on the side as you level and play through dungeons. AV is a good source of gear, experience, and is required for Grand Company progression. I'll grant you that they didn't have to lock it at all, but I suspect it was partially to make sure that people kept playing their game. There's a lot of strange level/MSQ locks that are to be blamed solely on gil sellers, and as mentioned above the requirement for AV was in before housing to be max rank.

I know it's a slippery slope fallacy, but why even bother needing to pay for a room at all? If you've already spent millions on a house, why not just open instances to members? The answer's the same: They want people playing, not just logging in once a week to look at their house. I wasn't trying to infer any sort of True Player Society or anything, I just miss the days where hard shit was either beaten or it wasn't, and there was a modicum of pride of being able to say you beat something tough. I confess "difficult" is incredibly subjective, but that's a discussion for another thread. Before we had patches and the like, you either beat the game or you didn't. Seeing the True Ending to Kingdom Hearts meant something before Youtube. Conquering secret bosses in RPGs was a badge of honor. I will concede that this is slightly apples to oranges; Steps is hardly Demifiend-from-DDS level difficulty, but I think the thought is the same. "This is hard, and I don't want to / can't do it, but I want what comes after it."

Comes back around to my not understanding not wanting to play the game. I just think of the less-fun stuff as the Sewer Level of MMOs.

Oli! · **09-04-2015, 02:13 PM**

(09-04-2015, 02:03 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: I just miss the days where hard shit was either beaten or it wasn't, and there was a modicum of pride of being able to say you beat something tough. I confess "difficult" is incredibly subjective, but that's a discussion for another thread. Before we had patches and the like, you either beat the game or you didn't. Seeing the True Ending to Kingdom Hearts meant something before Youtube. Conquering secret bosses in RPGs was a badge of honor. I will concede that this is slightly apples to oranges; Steps is hardly Demifiend-from-DDS level difficulty, but I think the thought is the same. "This is hard, and I don't want to / can't do it, but I want what comes after it."

Comes back around to my not understanding not wanting to play the game. I just think of the less-fun stuff as the Sewer Level of MMOs.

To invoke Player Choice, there's nothing really stopping people from doing this. If I want to sit down and play Kingdom Hearts and view the True Ending as a reward, all I have to do is not look it up on YouTube. If people want to do content the way that it was intended, all they have to do is get some level-appropriate gear and some friends, and belt it out as best they can.

The challenge hasn't been removed, it's still there, it's just that there are ways to bypass it that people are taking. It's possible to hop off of that train at any point and do things the way that they were built if that's really what people want.

For those that don't want to do that, the ability to have things be "easy" or whatever is there as well. Everyone can be happy that way, I feel, unless people feel that one option or the other shouldn't exist at all so that everyone can play in one way, which isn't something that I personally endorse.

Warren Castille · **09-04-2015, 02:18 PM**

(09-04-2015, 02:13 PM)Oli! Wrote: The challenge hasn't been removed, it's still there, it's just that there are ways to bypass it that people are taking. It's possible to hop off of that train at any point and do things the way that they were built if that's really what people want.

For those that don't want to do that, the ability to have things be "easy" or whatever is there as well. Everyone can be happy that way, I feel, unless people feel that one option or the other shouldn't exist at all so that everyone can play in one way, which isn't something that I personally endorse.

Coil nerfs, Pharos Nerf, and Steps Nerf are all a Thing, though. The original difficulty of these things were removed because (at least partially) people were unable to do them as they were designed. They were possible, barring Twister bug, and in the case of Pharos and Coil they were already completely optional. I will concede that steps threw a bunch of mechanics into Trial Roulette that most people weren't prepared for, but the original versions are gone.

I'm articulating it badly, as I'm not trying to say "Everyone must play the way I deem it!" I just miss when challenge was met with determination and not surrender. I blame FFXI.

Edit: I consider it a personal failing of my own, hence my claiming position as a grognard earlier.

Telluride · **09-04-2015, 03:28 PM**

(09-04-2015, 02:18 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: I'm articulating it badly, as I'm not trying to say "Everyone must play the way I deem it!" I just miss when challenge was met with determination and not surrender. I blame FFXI.

Edit: I consider it a personal failing of my own, hence my claiming position as a grognard earlier.

I do have to question: Are you're really playing the right game, though, for what you miss?

Because those games are out there:

Show Content

You may not believe me, but I do in fact understand what you want. I just don't know if an MMO like FFXIV is the best place to find what you want.

My wariness in this topic is that I have developed a powerful bias against this:

Fake Longevity
These kinds of bosses

These older times you long for, I actually do get, and they go muuuuuuuuuuch farther back than Kingdom Hearts: Raiders of the Lost Ark for the Atari2600. The Ultima games. Level 255 in Pac Man in the arcades. The difference is that once you got these personal achievements, then.. well, you can be done with the game. Modern gaming has not as much abandoned these sorts of persistence; in fact, it EXPLOITS them by Skinner-esque rewards systems:

Player: I beat SuperDragon EX! I beat SuperDragon EX! WoooooT
(now, in oldschool gaming, you're done! You got that bragging right. You pushed through. But...)

MMO: Yay! Oh, sorry, the drop you wanted didn't land. Come back tomorrow, loser, and try again! Okay, okay, have a few tokens, but.. you'll be back. Rest up, pal, we want you doing it again. We've gotta keep you subbed some way, right?

It's not that people are totally unwilling to meet challenges, but the people who like challenge for challenge's sake are not, by and large, MMO players, and they don't exist in enough numbers to keep one afloat and working - if they did, I might still be RPing as my Wildstar main. They're off playing all the sorts of games I have spoiler-linked up there.

Subscription / Marketplace - supported games wont' be built this way, because people don't pay fees forever for the same old challenge. If I want that rush of overcoming a challenge with determination and built-up skill, and that's my main goal, I know that there isn't an MMO out there that is really gonna scratch that itch forever, and the closest ones to it turn into the nastiest depths of Eve Online, which are what you get when pure determination and drive to defeat things, rather than a community-oriented spirit, get too much power. I played Eve Online for a year, and I don't ever want to go back to that pit (and now I'm sure that a dozen people reading this are thinking, "What's wrong, you couldn't handle it, Carebear Noob?", which is the precise reason I left that nasty place)

I think of that moment in Wreck-it-Ralph when Vanellope finally realizes why that medal is so important to Ralph, and that realization turns rivalry into a future friendship - they both have realized that someone understands why they want something so badly, and are willing to go against the very rules of their own worlds to get it. Silly example, I guess, but we aren't playing a game in which the determination we're discussing is held in anywhere as much value by the developers as it is by certain players. Sometimes, we have to literally find a new world, or make one, if we want those medals that represent our own self-gratification. We wanna work up to Titan, bust him up, and feel good about ourselves, but how valuable can that continue to feel when that same fight is what we're expected to do over and over? Can we not dislike a challenge once we've beaten it? Video Game bragging rights just don't mean quite the same thing as they did in the 80's and 90's, and not in an MMO.

And.. well, I think I rambled, but I'm posting it anyway.

Warren Castille · **09-04-2015, 03:45 PM**

Naw, you're fine. The challenge I'm having is that the transition wasn't instant: FFXI didn't file its teeth down for years and years, and XIV 1.0 was the sort of game you needed to outsmart and destroy in order to draw enjoyment out of it. I like ARR, and I like MMOs in general, but the concept has changed in my time spent inside of them.

I play hard games for the achievement, too. But this goes back to what I was saying about the trophies of yesteryear: You either could, or you could not, and you either accepted that or you worked your ass off to become able. Now you just go to the forums or twitter or reddit and hope enough people are in the same boat as you so you can get it changed, instead of learning the patterns of a challenging fight or spending the time to overcome it with gear.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to be one-and-done with content. Beating something and never returning to it is sort of a nice bit of closure? "I never have to do EX modes again, because I have all the weapons finally" or something similar. "I finally beat Coil, and now NEVER AGAIN." The issues that were being discussed here were less general and more specific to Steps (and Pharos, later). I realize my opening statement that helped spark all of this was a bit vague for that purpose, but I recall with no small amount of schadenfreude the numerous cries for "NERF!" because Steps wasn't able to be done without some communication or strategy.

There's something to be said for the lack of ramp-up: If you didn't do anything besides MSQ you never had to really work hard for anything except Chrysalis, which lots of people still don't like doing (and wipe to, if there's anything to be said for my recent experiences in the roulette).

I've changed by not changing at all! I used to have my cake, and I could eat it too. That's not the case, and some people are slow to let go of that. As mentioned, it's my issue, not anyone else's.

Aaron · **09-04-2015, 04:18 PM**

I wish ffxiv was Dark Souls combat hard.

I'd sub the everlasting shit outta the game forever and ever then.

Sorry just had to throw that in there.

On topic, the amount of casual players outnumber the amount of endgamers. So in general if the casuals want a nerf, they'll get it before the devs say no.

Just look at SoF.

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One heck of a nice run!

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes