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Melkire · **08-19-2014, 12:32 PM**

There's a point I'd like to make before seguing into my contribution to this thread: Sultansworn are not, strictly speaking, law enforcement. They are analogous to the Secret Service of the U.S. President. They serve as bodyguards for the sultana and guarantors of her safety in much the same way that the Secret Service serve as such for the President.

The difference is this: on the few occasions in game that the Sultansworn leave the palace behind, they do so to deal with threats to the Sultana's safety and/or political power, or else to deal with one of their own number.

The reason that Sultansworn (and Flames) on Balmung end up roleplaying as law enforcement ultimately stems from the fact that no one on RPC seems willing to roleplay as a Brass Blade on anything that even remotely approaches a full-time basis. Brass Blades are the police force of Ul'dah; law enforcement is their purview. I imagine no one wants to play one because that would require either:

a. roleplaying as a corrupt a-hole,
b. roleplaying as a world-weary good guy surrounded by a department of corrupt a-holes for coworkers,

...neither of which would appeal, I expect, to anyone but masochists (if i wasnt already heavily invested in my main, i would roll a Blade. ffffffffffuuuuuuu-). So people end up playing 'sworn and Flames as the law instead.

That, in no small part, is why in Balmung's Ul'dah you see a reverence for Sultansworn: they are rarely-seen knights of legend who are giving what spare time they have to descend and disseminate into the common populace in order to safeguard THE PEOPLE. They more often than not get the appropriate reaction and appreciation ICly.

You're not going to see anything of the sort in Limsa, because Merlwyb established a dictatorship over pirates, rapscallions, and other disreputables. Reverence is never going to secure you authority ICly; you're roleplaying in a city of criminals, respect is going to have be earned. What YellowjacketsÂ need to prey upon to keep the populace in line is fear, and that means posing a threat. Posing a threat isn't something you can do without superior numbers or firepower, which means that, in large gatherings, you're either going to have to round up consent to NPC a large task force, or else not participate in that capacity until you have the manpower in PCs. Keep to smaller one-on-one or one-on-two interactions.

If you build it, they will come.

Might take some time though, and some dedicated perserverance on your part.

Verad · **08-19-2014, 12:41 PM**

(08-19-2014, 12:29 PM)Black Hat Wrote: My utopian vision would be a community of RPers (such as this one) that doesn't tell each other "I dictate what happens to my character." Where IC actions have universal IC consequences (like Law Enforcement involvement, cause really.....really? Limsa may be Tortuga, but I still see Yellowjackets all over the streets, people.) and players think "OH crap. I got myself into this situation, now I need to think of an IN CHARACTER way out" instead of "I don't like this. You can't tell me what to do."

This is the opposite of my utopia and so it shall never come to pass.

Kage · **08-19-2014, 01:05 PM**

Honestly as a player I got shit-tired of the shit Kage got ICly and OOCly for being a Brass Blade. I made the decision "fuck it, he's going back soon. now."

As Sultansworn, Kage never tried to up and up arrest anybody unless it was with people I trusted. The Sultansworn gaols are typically used (when I was involved anyway) for political prisoners or spies who pose a big threat to the Sultana or the authority of the Sultansworn). otherwise, Kage points to any Brass Blades or just tries to say, "Look if you keep this up I don't think anyone would mind if I were to hand your arse to your face."

As a Brass Blade, there were people who were quite willing to accept the authority of the Brass Blades being the one true law enforcement of Ul'dah. Many more just gave Kage shit. People conveniently forget that the Brass Blades do still give their lives for people. They just remember the blatant corruption. lol

What I've tried to do is that with any player I am not comfortable with, due to their own RP or whatnot, is to either use OOC communications or I decide to ignore it all together. Using a Linkpearl or whatnot so that certain things said are not heard. I don't think I've ever tried to force Kage's perceived authority on anyone else. It's something that I let the other decide. If they don't, they don't. I've not really run into it though since I usually do that with people I trust to RP with.

No Longer Exists · **08-19-2014, 01:07 PM**

(08-19-2014, 12:41 PM)Verad Wrote:
(08-19-2014, 12:29 PM)Black Hat Wrote: My utopian vision would be a community of RPers (such as this one) that doesn't tell each other "I dictate what happens to my character." Where IC actions have universal IC consequences (like Law Enforcement involvement, cause really.....really? Limsa may be Tortuga, but I still see Yellowjackets all over the streets, people.) and players think "OH crap. I got myself into this situation, now I need to think of an IN CHARACTER way out" instead of "I don't like this. You can't tell me what to do."

This is the opposite of my utopia and so it shall never come to pass.

The crux of my point, Verad. Finding a meaningful compromise takes a backseat for the more personally motivated perspective to be the driver. What would your vision be?

Zhavi · **08-19-2014, 01:08 PM**

I think maybe there's some misunderstanding about Ruru's post, so Imma clear that up!

There was miscommunication oocly.

Ruru is a damn hard worker. He's a wonderful rper, with great ideas, who puts his all into everything. When he decided to play a yellowjacket, I was thrilled. Because I've played with Ruru quite a bit, I kinda did the assumey thing where I figured things would just flow together and we were on the same page.

Theyyyy didn't. I had thought Ruru was playing one way (ie, this was a behind-the-back stab at putting influence on Zhavi, without actually having the evidence/whatever to back it up, that the not-arresting bit was being done on purpose because he was actually bluffing), but he was, in all actuality, playing another way -- he felt that his character was genuinely being shut out and not taken seriously.

Sooo, I hashed it out with him over im to figure out what went wrong.

Blackhat had a lot of great things to say, as well as other people -- but the problem wasn't that Ruru was trying to assert ic authority over random people. It was players he knew, and who he knew supported him. I was gung-ho to have Zhi get arrested if it needed to happen. He didn't know that. We never talked about it. I assumed he knew . . . .and he was trying his damndest to be polite and go along with the rp, he didn't bring it up. Zhi being Zhi, she started drumming up support from others in the Wench (with the whole what-are-you-talking-about-I'm-innocent thing), which effectively shut Melodia down in that public space. Here I was thinking all 'man, guess she was bluffing' and ruru was all *headdesk* . . . whoops.

LESSON LEARNED: when trying out new things, keep the ooc communications open. Make sure both parties are on the same page. Big Grin

(i'mnotanidiotiswear)

(and in the interim, I've worked out a plan with ruru to ensure melodia has the space and ability to reassert authority over zhi!)

FreelanceWizard · **08-19-2014, 01:08 PM**

(08-19-2014, 12:29 PM)Black Hat Wrote: My utopian vision would be a community of RPers (such as this one) that doesn't tell each other "I dictate what happens to my character." Where IC actions have universal IC consequences (like Law Enforcement involvement, cause really.....really? Limsa may be Tortuga, but I still see Yellowjackets all over the streets, people.) and players think "OH crap. I got myself into this situation, now I need to think of an IN CHARACTER way out" instead of "I don't like this. You can't tell me what to do."

Without making a value judgment on the concept, the problem is that there's just no way to enforce that in open consensual RP (well, okay, there are ways, but none that are good). Ultimately, control of your character in a consensual RP environment belongs to you and you alone. The only time you cede any control is when you join a group of other RPers, and even then you can take that right back by leaving.

EDIT: I'm speaking in generalities on this thread, not trying to call anyone out or say that Rurutani or Zhavi or anyone else is trying to throw their weight around and control other people's RP. Certainly if a cop and a robber agree to a scene where the robber might get arrested, that's great; they've both consented to what's happening and to the authority, and fun can result. Smile

Aldotsk · **08-19-2014, 01:20 PM**

I've always had some time to look over this. Sure, your character is yours and you want your plot to be special and unique. However, if you are a villain that goes over the line to break every part of law and you don't want anyone to try to stop you - then what's the point of having other players to roleplay with you? There will always be those who think differently from you.Â

As long as they are not really out there to kill you or try to actually make your character disappear from existence, why bother resisting? Also, this community is nice enough. So be sure to talk to them through /tell. There is a reason why it exists. If players don't want to cooperate even through /tell, and they just deliberately being obnoxious or whatsoever, then you just shrug and ignore them or avoid them. There will always be dramas in Roleplaying, because everyone considers their characters too drawn to be important. They put that much effort. So it's tough.

If you are also power hungry, there will be others who will come after your throat too. That's why Roleplaying is fun. Because what you do can change the course of events and plots.

If you dont want anything to happen to your character, don't roleplay. Just write a novel.

No Longer Exists · **08-19-2014, 01:20 PM**

(08-19-2014, 01:08 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:
(08-19-2014, 12:29 PM)Black Hat Wrote: My utopian vision would be a community of RPers (such as this one) that doesn't tell each other "I dictate what happens to my character." Where IC actions have universal IC consequences (like Law Enforcement involvement, cause really.....really? Limsa may be Tortuga, but I still see Yellowjackets all over the streets, people.) and players think "OH crap. I got myself into this situation, now I need to think of an IN CHARACTER way out" instead of "I don't like this. You can't tell me what to do."

Without making a value judgment on the concept, the problem is that there's just no way to enforce that in open consensual RP (well, okay, there are ways, but none that are good). Ultimately, control of your character in a consensual RP environment belongs to you and you alone. The only time you cede any control is when you join a group of other RPers, and even then you can take that right back by leaving.

Essentially, yes and no. While as said previously, there's nothing wrong with saying "I do not consent", it comes with its own issues. History being doomed to repeat itself, if you will. There's consent and then there's being wishy-washy. Optimally, if you're committing an open crime visible to the public at large, you're consenting to having the cops called on you. There's no valid precedent for being offended that you got busted for stealing someone's stuff, especially not with your hand in the cookie jar (hypothetically.)Â

It's not about enforcement, but the evolution of roleplaying. The only way to keep it fresh and exciting is to be open to the excitement. Eventually, as evidenced myriad times before, we're all going to turn disillusioned. Really think about that. Some RPers love the random chaos of interacting freely and letting the chips fall where they may. Many do not and if you survey the statistics, it's those who don't that quit out of boredom. Controlling every aspect gets stale. RPing under the same paradigm gets stale. End game content grinds get stale. It's all the same principle.Â

What I mentioned in my brief utopian blurb was more of an offering of inspiration. We're already a community and we're all awesome, why don't we find that middling ground in the form of a community standard and expand rather than isolate ourselves? Course, if the general populace likes the status quo then there's your answer and the discussion is nicely moot.Â

Taking risks with any situation, real or fictional, keeps things invigorating, broadens horizons. That's all.Â

And this is all one Hat's perspective too. I'm humble enough to admit that I may be off the mark, I watch the forums and make these statements based on observations of patterns.

Melodia · **08-19-2014, 01:25 PM**

(08-19-2014, 01:08 PM)Zhavi Wrote: I think maybe there's some misunderstanding about Ruru's post, so Imma clear that up!

There was miscommunication oocly.

Ruru is a damn hard worker. Â He's a wonderful rper, with great ideas, who puts his all into everything. Â When he decided to play a yellowjacket, I was thrilled. Â Because I've played with Ruru quite a bit, I kinda did the assumey thing where I figured things would just flow together and we were on the same page.

Theyyyy didn't. Â I had thought Ruru was playing one way (ie, this was a behind-the-back stab at putting influence on Zhavi, without actually having the evidence/whatever to back it up, that the not-arresting bit was being done on purpose because he was actually bluffing), but he was, in all actuality, playing another way -- he felt that his character was genuinely being shut out and not taken seriously.

Sooo, I hashed it out with him over im to figure out what went wrong. Â

Blackhat had a lot of great things to say, as well as other people -- but the problem wasn't that Ruru was trying to assert ic authority over random people. Â It was players he knew, and who he knew supported him. Â I was gung-ho to have Zhi get arrested if it needed to happen. Â He didn't know that. Â We never talked about it. Â I assumed he knew . . . .and he was trying his damndest to be polite and go along with the rp, he didn't bring it up. Â Zhi being Zhi, she started drumming up support from others in the Wench (with the whole what-are-you-talking-about-I'm-innocent thing), which effectively shut Melodia down in that public space. Â Here I was thinking all 'man, guess she was bluffing' and ruru was all *headdesk* . . . Â whoops.

LESSON LEARNED: when trying out new things, keep the ooc communications open. Â Make sure both parties are on the same page. Â (i'mnotanidiotiswear)

(and in the interim, I've worked out a plan with ruru to ensure melodia has the space and ability to reassert authority over zhi!)

This. And with all the points made, there really isn't much more needed to the thread. *hugs all* Happy thoughts and move forward Smile

Melkire · **08-19-2014, 01:30 PM**

(08-19-2014, 01:08 PM)Zhavi Wrote: There was miscommunication oocly.

...ah.

(08-19-2014, 01:08 PM)Zhavi Wrote: It was players he knew, and who he knew supported him.Â Â

Ruru:

In addition to more/improved OoC communication, I'd suggest that, in a group full of folks that you know are supportive of your efforts and are there to work with you make something like this happen, you be a little more assertive. This doesn't mean forcing authority over someone via an arrest or something; it could mean, as Zhi mentioned earlier, that Melodia calls in Yellowjacket NPCs or something along those lines. Suddenly you have a Brute Squad facing down a tavern full of folks not willing to put their necks on the line for a single Keeper. I've found that conflict RP is a lot like chess - someone makes a move on the board that changes the field and puts you at a disadvantage, and it's up to you to counter in such a way to not only remove their advantage but gain one of your own (Osric ends up trying to do this a lot... sometimes he succeeds. >_>)

That's the advantage of roleplaying with a supportive group: if you go too far, they'll almost always immediately check in with you OoCly to let you know so that you can work things out,Â and if you're not going too far they'll play it out ICly. You've got a bit more leeway than you would with, say, random PCs you meet while walking around.

Anecdote time (mentioned parties, please forgive me!):

...once upon a time, I checked in with C'kayah to fake an "arrest" in orderÂ for Osric to get a chance to talk with him privately. He agreed to it. Little did IÂ know that he was roleplaying with other folks at the time, including one Sultansworn Lala Kage. Osric gently tookÂ Kage aside to let him know whatÂ was going on whileÂ hisÂ "Brass Blade" associate (thank you, Lanza) made the "arrest". It was an interesting bit of on-the-spotÂ improv,Â but it worked out because the individuals involvedÂ knew each other well enough (or had otherwise communicated well enough) to make the scene work.

Aya · **08-19-2014, 01:37 PM**

Oooooooh Ruru's GOON SQUAD!Â I like this :-]

Zhavi · **08-19-2014, 01:40 PM**

(08-19-2014, 01:30 PM)Melkire Wrote: Ruru:

In addition to more/improved OoC communication, I'd suggest that, in a group full of folks that you know are supportive of your efforts and are there to work with you make something like this happen, you be a little more assertive. This doesn't mean forcing authority over someone via an arrest or something; it could mean, as Zhi mentioned earlier, that Melodia calls in Yellowjacket NPCs or something along those lines. Suddenly you have a Brute Squad facing down a tavern full of folks not willing to put their necks on the line for a single Keeper. I've found that conflict RP is a lot like chess - someone makes a move on the board that changes the field and puts you at a disadvantage, and it's up to you to counter in such a way to not only remove their advantage but gain one of your own (Osric ends up trying to do this a lot... sometimes he succeeds. >_>)

In all fairness, I think Ruru felt that he wasn't allowed to do something like that. He was flying solo, and everyone was doing their damndest to make it as hard as possible for his character. He hasn't done a role like this before (that I know of) -- it can be intimidating. I think facing all that opposition, he felt like there were no options for his character. (quick edit - using npcs for that sort of thing can feel like you're being powergamey. Ruru is the sort of player who tries to avoid that at all costs; I suggested using them when we talked, but at the time I'm betting he felt like that wasn't an option)

RP, as any social activity, has its share of learning processes!

Verad · **08-19-2014, 01:41 PM**

(08-19-2014, 01:20 PM)Black Hat Wrote:
(08-19-2014, 01:08 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:
(08-19-2014, 12:29 PM)Black Hat Wrote: My utopian vision would be a community of RPers (such as this one) that doesn't tell each other "I dictate what happens to my character." Where IC actions have universal IC consequences (like Law Enforcement involvement, cause really.....really? Limsa may be Tortuga, but I still see Yellowjackets all over the streets, people.) and players think "OH crap. I got myself into this situation, now I need to think of an IN CHARACTER way out" instead of "I don't like this. You can't tell me what to do."

Without making a value judgment on the concept, the problem is that there's just no way to enforce that in open consensual RP (well, okay, there are ways, but none that are good). Ultimately, control of your character in a consensual RP environment belongs to you and you alone. The only time you cede any control is when you join a group of other RPers, and even then you can take that right back by leaving.

Essentially, yes and no. While as said previously, there's nothing wrong with saying "I do not consent", it comes with its own issues. History being doomed to repeat itself, if you will. There's consent and then there's being wishy-washy. Optimally, if you're committing an open crime visible to the public at large, you're consenting to having the cops called on you. There's no valid precedent for being offended that you got busted for stealing someone's stuff, especially not with your hand in the cookie jar (hypothetically.)Â

It's not about enforcement, but the evolution of roleplaying. The only way to keep it fresh and exciting is to be open to the excitement. Eventually, as evidenced myriad times before, we're all going to turn disillusioned. Really think about that. Some RPers love the random chaos of interacting freely and letting the chips fall where they may. Many do not and if you survey the statistics, it's those who don't that quit out of boredom. Controlling every aspect gets stale. RPing under the same paradigm gets stale. End game content grinds get stale. It's all the same principle.Â

What I mentioned in my brief utopian blurb was more of an offering of inspiration. We're already a community and we're all awesome, why don't we find that middling ground in the form of a community standard and expand rather than isolate ourselves? Course, if the general populace likes the status quo then there's your answer and the discussion is nicely moot.Â

Taking risks with any situation, real or fictional, keeps things invigorating, broadens horizons. That's all.Â

And this is all one Hat's perspective too. I'm humble enough to admit that I may be off the mark, I watch the forums and make these statements based on observations of patterns.

Setting aside the logistical issues of establishing a community standard - which, quite apart from the issues of consent laid out by other posters, are numerous - none of what you are describing is interesting to me as a player.

Why should I want to "evolve" my roleplay? Why should I want to broaden my horizons? The game is a pastime. I enjoy it, and I enjoy writing for it, but I find that too many utopian roleplayers who buy into the idea of a shared, single community (this comes up so often that I now call it "the myth of community" and will continue to refer to it as such in the future), seem to think it needs to be something greater, something more than a group of people sporadically swapping stories back and forth with greater or lesser degrees of success. And where are these statistics saying I'm more likely to quit coming from, anyway?

My personal vision is much smaller. Call it a tabletop upbringing or not having started online RP in MMOs, where the myth seems to hold more sway, but I prefer small groups and small stories, and, accordingly, I prefer prioritizing OOC consent and player agency over IC consistency. And, to take this back to the original topic, I see that making law enforcement RP extremely difficult because there is no central, shared body of authority outside of consent. There are law enforcement players here who I would trust enough to consent to their involvement (and that is a rarityÂ for me, so high praise for the server for that), but there are others out there who I can and will pretend don't exist because they conflict with how I see the setting.

At any rate, matters have cleared up for Ruru, so I will leave the thread be. If you want to continue this, please start a new thread.

FreelanceWizard · **08-19-2014, 02:13 PM**

(08-19-2014, 01:20 PM)Black Hat Wrote: Essentially, yes and no. While as said previously, there's nothing wrong with saying "I do not consent", it comes with its own issues. History being doomed to repeat itself, if you will. There's consent and then there's being wishy-washy. Optimally, if you're committing an open crime visible to the public at large, you're consenting to having the cops called on you. There's no valid precedent for being offended that you got busted for stealing someone's stuff, especially not with your hand in the cookie jar (hypothetically.)Â

I'm with you on this. Either you're consenting to interaction when you RP in public, or you need to be doing it in private; someone trying to commit a crime is exactly the sort of thing that should get a response, and you really shouldn't non-consent a reasonable response ("Stop thief!" is one thing, "*casts Flare*" is quite another). I think most RPers are onboard with that, and hypothetically, if L'yhta were caught doing something criminal, I'd take my IC consequence lumps. Smile

We don't need a community consensus or LEO RPers with blanket authority and far-reaching consequences to make that work. We just need sensible people and OOC communication.

EDIT: Clarified a little. Smile

Aldotsk · **08-19-2014, 03:23 PM**

To what Freelance said,

If you don't want law enforcement to chase after you, be sure to commit crime in a narrow street where no one's looking around. In an area with huge amount of people, there will be a commotion and someone will come after you.

But OOC communication is always the way to solve problems.

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Law Enforcement and the Impossibility of Playing It

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes