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***Maril*** · **10-01-2014, 09:58 AM**

As an FC leader, I must admit it gets harder and harder to teach people the basics of roleplay, and uphold a level of quality in the FC that you can be completely happy with.Â
I don't exactly know how to put the right words on to what I am experiencing, but it's almost as if "Newer" roleplayers increasingly refuses to accept the rules for what they are - but rather they debate them, question them, and ignore them at will if they do not agree with them. I was a TERRIBLE roleplayer when I started out some 5-6 years ago, and I was literally told "This is not how you do that. THIS is how you do it!" over and over on so many areas through my learning experience (I joined a guild where I had a mentor) and I -never- questioned the stuff they were telling me. I fully recognized it was not alright for me to question why, because -I- was the new player and -they- had the experience, so what they told me had to be the right stuff.Â I have failed people from our trial because they refused to accept what we were teaching them, something that happens on a semi-regular basis.

If I had to point out a "group" where I see this from, it is from roleplayers who are new to MMORPG-RP, but have anywhere from 5-15 years of experience with other ways of roleplaying, or written media. This is why I always flinch a bit when someone says they've done pen and paper for 15 years - I suddenly doubt if they are willing to acknowledge that things are different here. And whilst stuff like IC/OOC is a thing across all of the variants of RP ever, there are some things from other variants that aren't used here. And then it's that whole thing with (and I know not everyone is like this) when people say they're been Rping (as a general term, not specific to mmorpgs) for 15 years and then I say "Oh, I've done it for 5-6 years" then the reaction I tend to get is more of a "Oh she's a wee little runt!" rather than "This person is telling me not to do (thing), I should listen". So more and more I tend to assume that people are new to RP regardless of if the have done pnp for x amount of years, if they just started out in mmorpg-rp.Â

An argument I see a lot when people want to justify anything from severely breaking the lore, to breaking these common rules of RP, and so on is that "They just do what is fun".
And as much as I want to admire peoples desire to have fun, I just. Egh. I need a gif to illustrate how I feel about that but I can't find one.Â
I guess I just take things more seriously? Not to mean that I don't have fun, I have fun everyday, but I follow the rules like I always have. The rules are why we all tend to get along, why back in older games I didn't have to question if I wanted to RP with the person next to me because they seemed a wee bit too far into the light end. And it's not because I don't like light-rpers, but when they ignore the lore it becomes more near impossible, because I -do- follow the lore and if my character acknowledges their stuff then I would not follow the lore. Ack! And when they take ooc as IC? I just want to run. I do not mean to double-cross players, but it is something my character sort of maybe does now and then. Because she is not a nice girl.Â
These days I can't even be in the quicksand without encountering something I have to assume didn't happen, like people teleporting into dungeons mid-rp. What the actual ;_;Â

Anyhow, rambling aside. I do feel inspired enough to see if I can compile a little something for my FC on the subject, a forum post or so. Just to increase the awareness.

Michelleswain · **10-01-2014, 10:09 AM**

(10-01-2014, 08:52 AM)Jaques Wrote: There is even a thread here that talks about some minor bleeds that are generally taken as 'not really a problem'.

Ultimately I guess what I'm saying is rant away. It sounds like you've got a system in place on determining who you RP with and who you don't. Stick buy it and get the individuals who make the game fun. Which sounds like what you're already doing. As I mentioned before chronic and blatant offenders will usually end up outside of many circles eventually through their own action.

Method acting and a bit of meta is ok in my opinion, so long as it is not disruptive (such as causing one to leave a guild or not getting in-game actual help).

An example of this is my player walking away and not talking to you IC for a while. Perhaps you offended her or something. Even though she is mad at you IC, if you suddenly asked for my help in a duty, the OOC me would help you.

I don't feel it's a rant per se, but I wanted to raise awareness, bring the issue to light. But guess what? So many positive responses on here and so many people telling me "Yes this is a common problem and this has been my experience", that you're right.

Honestly I did not know so many people shared my opinion on this matter and have had the exact same experiences I have had! By the way, even the tabletop examples myself and my husband haveÂ experienced.

That being said, this is a discussion forum regarding the ebb and flow of role playing. I feel a lot better that there are others out there that have experienced this issue but having the discussion raises awareness in hopes that new role-players who I direct to the site can see such threads and reflect on them.

And regarding all of my examples (and other occurrences) I simply ended any relationship, left the guild immediately,Â as well as ended any outstanding RP threads. Only people involved in the RP thread that were affected are informed if need be. I understand where you're coming from regarding the Witch-hunt flipping around. I end any such gossip immediately.

CrookedTarot · **10-01-2014, 10:17 AM**

I'll use a recent little thing that happened since I am a person that will admit I have a hard time separating the two--within a certain reason.

Basically, Tarot screwed up royally. He therefore becamme defensive. I therefore became defensive. My personality, whenever things don't go the way I planned or when I look like an ass, leads me to steam over things for a while, essentially thinking of a million different ways I can respond to largely hypothetical scenarios.

For instance, I almost found myself dreading the inevitable scolding Tarot would receive. Not because it was the group demoting me or trashing Tarot or anything; it was because Tarot (and thus myself) had guessed wrong about something in an RP related to the group and it, ICly, cost the group in terms of endangering his teammates.

What was more is that, since Tarot is very dear to me, is very much a character (as someone said earlier) that I have invested a great deal of time and care into, his emotions become mine. I knew the player was a great person but the character was smug and full of themselves (at least from Tarot's perspective) so he knew that apologizing--at least he guessed apologizing--would be met with a demeaning and dismissive response from the person he screwed up with.

This compounded my own emotions since that type of response pissed me off personally--you begin to see where this is headed? I actually had to pull myself away from the computer and take a day to relax and deal with it. Some people, like myself, sadly have that sort of thing. Thankfully, I've learned from previous flare ups to pull out before I have my character say or do something stupid that is largely OUT of character for them simply as a response to the feelings I have.

This is still something I am working on and I doubt I'll ever largely be free of. I say all this to just give a reminder that some of us are aware of this problem we have and that, maybe, a 'safe' word (he) could be used to indicate when you are feeling a bit too testy or upset and need a moment. Something to let your fellows players know 'Hey, I'm getting that feeling in my gut, I need to just leave.'

Tarot isn't the type to storm off an pout, which means that I need to formulate an escape for him--but if this 'safety' word exists than maybe it will be easier for players to pull out and their fellow RPers can simply gloss over the character's departure. Instead of:

"Oh yeah, we tried to talk to him/her but they just left in a huff"

It can be that the OOC notification is given and the player just leaves to cool off then later on the characters can say,

"Hey, you okay? You kinda got quiet and then X before you left'

Something along those lines so that if you need to back out quickly for the blurring of lines, you don't feel like your character will further be stigmatized, y'know?

Hope that was clear! Laugh

Parvacake · **10-01-2014, 10:18 AM**

(10-01-2014, 09:52 AM)ShayRei Wrote: Communication, communication, communication.Â

That'really all you can do to combat the IC and OOC bleed.

Â All of my yes. Just...here, take all of it. *shoves at and piles on the 'like's*

I just recently ended an RP partnership where communication was HUGELY lacking at the end. And it's something that can stem even outside the boundaries of IC and OOC melding. If one person can't/won't/is unable to communicate...it can cause things to fall apart. Majorly.

I have seen more RP and had more of my own RP end because of a lack of communication. It takes barely five seconds to drop someone a line or express a concern. "Hey, you ok? That RP was pretty exhausting and you seem a bit out of it" or "You seemed to get pretty angry over our characters' fight earlier. Something up?" These are mild examples, but sometimes all a person needs is a little nudge to open the doorway.

More often then not I have seen interactions go sour because one person was saying or doing something wrong and didn't realize it made the other person uncomfortable, IC or OOC. While some would rather avoid the possible confrontation those things would bring, most tend to be more then understanding. Those that aren't? Safe to say a little extra evaluation never hurts in case they may have something lurking under the skin. Some people who it seems are IC and OOC blending may not even know they're doing it, or that they're coming across that way. And then there are those that go 'IC and OOC blending? Derp, what's that?'...and that's when you get on your SCH cap and give them the 411.

Kage · **10-01-2014, 10:24 AM**

As a new roleplayer both in general and MMORPG, I recently found that I had lots of bleedthrough between IC and OOC emotions. It wasn't the fact that I couldn't separate them but I just -felt- them that sometimes I was in general moods that well affected myself, those I RP with, and those who RP with them. I find this a separate issue than the ones you've described.

Honestly, I'm not sure why at all the player you RP'd with demanded gil. It almost seems like a set up to take gil from you @_@; I have almost always, when gil is involved in RP between my friends, never used actual gil. Unless I want to tip Momodi's barmaid help. It seems more of people taking advantage than something RPers, new or old, would do.

Parvacake · **10-01-2014, 10:24 AM**

(10-01-2014, 10:17 AM)CrookedTarot Wrote: I'll use a recent little thing that happened since I am a person that will admit I have a hard time separating the two--within a certain reason.

Basically, Tarot screwed up royally. He therefore becamme defensive. I therefore became defensive. My personality, whenever things don't go the way I planned or when I look like an ass, leads me to steam over things for a while, essentially thinking of a million different ways I can respond to largely hypothetical scenarios.

For instance, I almost found myself dreading the inevitable scolding Tarot would receive. Not because it was the group demoting me or trashing Tarot or anything; it was because Tarot (and thus myself) had guessed wrong about something in an RP related to the group and it, ICly, cost the group in terms of endangering his teammates.

What was more is that, since Tarot is very dear to me, is very much a character (as someone said earlier) that I have invested a great deal of time and care into, his emotions become mine. I knew the player was a great person but the character was smug and full of themselves (at least from Tarot's perspective) so he knew that apologizing--at least he guessed apologizing--would be met with a demeaning and dismissive response from the person he screwed up with.

This compounded my own emotions since that type of response pissed me off personally--you begin to see where this is headed? I actually had to pull myself away from the computer and take a day to relax and deal with it. Some people, like myself, sadly have that sort of thing. Thankfully, I've learned from previous flare ups to pull out before I have my character say or do something stupid that is largely OUT of character for them simply as a response to the feelings I have.

This is still something I am working on and I doubt I'll ever largely be free of. I say all this to just give a reminder that some of us are aware of this problem we have and that, maybe, a 'safe' word (he) could be used to indicate when you are feeling a bit too testy or upset and need a moment. Something to let your fellows players know 'Hey, I'm getting that feeling in my gut, I need to just leave.'

Tarot isn't the type to storm off an pout, which means that I need to formulate an escape for him--but if this 'safety' word exists than maybe it will be easier for players to pull out and their fellow RPers can simply gloss over the character's departure. Instead of:

"Oh yeah, we tried to talk to him/her but they just left in a huff"

It can be that the OOC notification is given and the player just leaves to cool off then later on the characters can say,

"Hey, you okay? You kinda got quiet and then X before you left'

Something along those lines so that if you need to back out quickly for the blurring of lines, you don't feel like your character will further be stigmatized, y'know?

Hope that was clear!

All of this is also good too Smile

I've put a very tight rope on my own emotions when it comes to RP. I generally don't even talk to people on an in depth level anymore since some tend to question why it is I'm so separate with little to no immersion. Though there are times where I'm being affected by something outside of game (a bad phone call, argument with a friend, etc.) where I need to pull out of an RP STAT. Sometimes with little to no warning for the RP.

I've had people accuse me of blending when these have happened at stressful moments in an RP and that I'm 'running away'. This is where the aforementioned communication comes in to keep things clear.

OttoVann · **10-01-2014, 10:27 AM**

Hm, maybe I've been lucky but I haven't had trouble with IC/OOC bleed too much in regards to others. A lot of my IC 'girls' are friends with me on skype and some are even so bold to refer to me by my real name. This is fine, all of them understand we are friends and there is some solid as fuck trust there. They know I'm married, they know my wife encourages me to do whatever I want in game - and we have fun. We have IC relations for sure but OOC we're fine.

In fact with Kerwin my old IC romance, we know quite a lot about each other behind the screen and we have an extremely firm grip on ic/ooc romance bleed. I dunno I guess Ive been lucky. Even after we had to split IC due to real life and IC schedules schisms we still remain good friends and there is no overt attachment.

Then again last night I was getting admonished quite well for bleeding my IC/OOC in a Linkshell for being a bit too crass and/or lewd when talking to people versus only being a skirt chasing horndog IC only. Or perhaps I treat people while they are OOC as though they are IC sometimes. Im an offender in my own small way.

Michelleswain · **10-01-2014, 11:07 AM**

(10-01-2014, 09:52 AM)ShayRei Wrote: Communication, communication, communication.Â

Loved this advice and I could use more of it!

I am guilty sometimes of putting the blinders on and not saying to myself "Ok time out, lets take this OOC and ask them in a whisper if everything is ok". Or at least saying "Hey, is everything ok? I really like this dramatic RP, but I think feelings are being hurt" or something to that affect.

I'm normally pretty good at that. The one thing that normally does derail me isÂ if myÂ character of a different race/species being treated like any other ordinary 2014Â human from the U.S. even though the game takes place in 1200's medieval fantasy land. Frustrated

Typically any OOC debate divulges into some high end philosophical argument on because we're all sentient beings we all should act, feel, behave, have the same instincts and so on, or the immature response of "Well you just hate humans."

However the one growing trend where as in the past that would have worked (a few simple OOC checks), I'm noticing that the player is also recalcitrant OOC. Meaning the line between IC and OOC is completely gone. No, they really are mad at you.

So I take it to OOC and I try to be sweet and friendly as you described. But they are still upset OOC, and then I get upset that they are upset. At that moment all communication breaks.

Here's an example; I'm not into Futas. Not for any moral reasons, but I have viewed the growing trend of Futas as outside the parameters set byÂ most MMO gameÂ lores (I consider them like a race of their own?). Rarely does any setting set a plausible background where they can exist without extreme bends in the lore (aside from the cheesy "well it's magic" excuse). A lot of my prejudices against such characters stem from their predominance within the ERP exclusive community whereby ERP is prioritized above all else (to the detriment of lore, background, other forms of RP, non-romance RP etcetera).

I almost always fade away when a character confronts me (typically OOC) that they are a Futa. I appreciate that they make it known, however I had one case where the player didn't make it known until well into about a week's worth of role play sessions. They had failed all my other checks, but stupid me was mesmerized with how helpful, how active and reactive(my favorite type of role players), and how available to role play they were. When I confronted them about it OOC their response was "Well that's only if we get really close, otherwise it's not an issue". My brain exploded... I didn't know what to say or think. I then tried to explain why I had some reservations about it and the person exploded saying I was being intolerant. I tried my best to diffuse the encounters and lower my level of interaction with them, only to be met with increasing accusations of "abandoning them and being a jerk to them for no reason". Again a bit more searching revealed the person had grown attached to my character and I.

This all ended in having to blacklist the person and de-friending.

What was the proper course of action in this situation?
Was I to accept what ever race, species, pseudo-lore, third party creation they came up with?
This is a hard case of IC bleeding into OOC severely (I'd argue there was no bleeding but a hemorrhage).

Kage · **10-01-2014, 11:28 AM**

Personally, anyone who -defines- their character and her actions as "futa' gives me a redflag because there's usually no reason for me (or my character) to know that unless we're headed down that road (and I have since learned I don't want to go down such roads). Having it in your character info usually turns me away as a player.

Edit: I do ignore public lewd bordering onto venn diagram of ERP. My character, myself, I'm not interested in people who RP as people who just want to go out into public spaces to grope and make out with each other. That's just my personal tastes.

Though I must ask you, how is "futa" lore-breaking? Unless we both have a different interpretation of the word. Hermaphrodites and intersexual people exist so I am... confused?

Edit: Granted you already have reasons to not interact, but I understand why they are confused as to why being a "futa" matters so much. It shouldn't matter, in my opinion. To me it's just as similar to saying transgender people do not exist. Hermaphrodites do not exist. Intersexed people do not exist.

Aldotsk · **10-01-2014, 11:28 AM**

I usually walk away from any ERP attempts because I find them to be disturbing and disgusting majority of the time.Â

Not only that the OOC and IC communication always has to work out, and if someone behaves like they are upset at you OOCly, they are being dramatic queens and should really learn that in DnD, there are more drama controversials than MMORPG and yet they still deal with it and grow up. (Why? Because chances are that your character is dead through DnD and there is nothing you can do to revive the character unless DM says so)

Demanding for actual Gil is messed up, and if it was me, I'd leave instantly and never bother to deal with any of that FC.

Parvacake · **10-01-2014, 12:40 PM**

(10-01-2014, 11:28 AM)Kage Wrote: Though I must ask you, how is "futa" lore-breaking? Unless we both have a different interpretation of the word. Hermaphrodites and intersexual people exist so I am... confused?

Edit: Granted you already have reasons to not interact, but I understand why they are confused as to why being a "futa" matters so much. It shouldn't matter, in my opinion. To me it's just as similar to saying transgender people do not exist. Hermaphrodites do not exist. Intersexed people do not exist.

I think one of the biggest things is that more often then not people use futanari as something purely sexual and for ERP purposes moreso then it being part of the character. It's not even a matter of being transgendered, intersexed, etc. as it is for sexual gratification. Of course, there are exceptions to everything. I had a good friend roleplay a hermaphrodite on GW2 and she was very eloquent in RPing out the struggles and complexities that can come with it. Even managed to make a very androgynous character for the part.

As for lore-breaking...*shrugs* In this game it's not so much 'magic' as it is 'fantasia' when it comes to making things happen. Personally I just let it go at this point.

Verad · **10-01-2014, 12:53 PM**

OP, I'm sorry you've had some bad experiences.

Your bad experiences are not indicative of a growing anything, the death of anything, or the need to place PSAs to the effect. This is not a community concern.

Flickering Ember · **10-01-2014, 01:54 PM**

IC being translated into OOC is a common problem as others have mentioned. It is a problem that most of us recognize as being bad but many of us still likely contribute to, even if we aren't aware of. Like godmodding and metagaming, they are issues we recognize as being bad and we don't understand how others can make them. The reality of it is that most examples of these, like previously mentioned, are so subtle that the players don't realize they are doing them. When called out on, they will just deny it. (Although, we also can't always understand each other's thought processes so it is possible what one may consider to be as 'crossing the line' is not something the other person thinks of as 'crossing the line')

My preferred method of dealing with this kind of thing, along with godmodding, meta-gaming, and drama, is to approach everything with a nonchalant attitude. Stuff happens and I try not to make a big deal out of it because I'm here to have fun and focusing on the mistakes and problems others make draws away from the fun. This isn't to say that I don't hold opinions or don't have periods where I don't get angry about something. I couldn't see myself sticking around with the scenario in Example B. I don't actually mind paying up real gil for RP, but it's principle that it would be required in that RP that would drive me away.Â

I can't say I agree with OP's way of trying to predict who will be these type of RPers. It feels a little generalizing and assumptive. In the end, we all make these mistakes, and to think that any of us are above them is to fall in the same trap everyone else does. We all think we are right in the end, which is why these things happen. Although, I guess I don't really RP with 'light roleplayers' because a light roleplayer doesn't roleplay frequently enough for me to establish any real connection with their character anyway.

Kage · **10-01-2014, 02:04 PM**

(10-01-2014, 12:40 PM)Lilithium Wrote:
(10-01-2014, 11:28 AM)Kage Wrote: Though I must ask you, how is "futa" lore-breaking? Unless we both have a different interpretation of the word. Hermaphrodites and intersexual people exist so I am... confused?

Edit: Granted you already have reasons to not interact, but I understand why they are confused as to why being a "futa" matters so much. It shouldn't matter, in my opinion. To me it's just as similar to saying transgender people do not exist. Hermaphrodites do not exist. Intersexed people do not exist.

I think one of the biggest things is that more often then not people use futanari as something purely sexual and for ERP purposes moreso then it being part of the character. It's not even a matter of being transgendered, intersexed, etc. as it is for sexual gratification. Of course, there are exceptions to everything. I had a good friend roleplay a hermaphrodite on GW2 and she was very eloquent in RPing out the struggles and complexities that can come with it. Even managed to make a very androgynous character for the part.

As for lore-breaking...*shrugs* In this game it's not so much 'magic' as it is 'fantasia' when it comes to making things happen. Personally I just let it go at this point.

But isn't that then letting OOC bleed into IC? Intersexed individuals and hermaphrodites are real. Yes some people do have -both-. If it's not headed into ERP region why is it a problem? If it -is- headed there then yes, I can see the issue but from a standpoint of "it's not lore-compliant" I don't see it at all.

Michelleswain · **10-01-2014, 02:30 PM**

(10-01-2014, 11:28 AM)Kage Wrote: Though I must ask you, how is "futa" lore-breaking? Unless we both have a different interpretation of the word. Hermaphrodites and intersexual people exist so I am... confused?Â To me it's just as similar to saying transgender people do not exist. Hermaphrodites do not exist. Intersexed people do not exist.

But isn't that then letting OOC bleed into IC? Intersexed individuals and hermaphrodites are real. Yes some people do have -both-. If it's not headed into ERP region why is it a problem? If it -is- headed there then yes, I can see the issue but from a standpoint of "it's not lore-compliant" I don't see it at all.

Your statement is basically saying; "There are some people in real life with pointed ears, therefor Elves exist"

Futanari as a trait commonly used by ERP Role-Players is distinct and has it own characteristics typically the result of magic or the involvement of a god. One of these traitsÂ usually being licentiousness to the point of exclusion of any other activity or the need for constant sexual activity.

The current common use of Futanari as a character traitÂ isÂ taken from the Hentai genre and is distinct with it's own definition and is rarely used anymore as it's original meaning in Japanese. Transgender/Intersexed being a real world occurrence. The two terms are not inclusive of one another. Futanari being a distinct character trope.

I have not read anywhere that the terms Transgender or Intersexed is interchangeable with "Futanari" the character trope, and could be considered offensive far more than the term "Shemale".

Stating that my statement regarding Futa is equivalent to stating "Hermaphrodites do not exist or intersexed people do not exist, is an attempt atÂ instigating flamewars and causing inflammatory remarks when that is not my intention. Perhaps you didn't do it intentionally, but I would appreciate it if you wouldn't make propositional fallacies like this.

The discussion on what settings I would be ok with having futanari or not is not the point of this thread. The point of my example being how once I backed out of the relationship with this person it bled straight into OOC regardless of any explanation I could give.

Second as someone else explained; in my experience every encounter I've had with futanari characters have all leaned to a potential ERP exclusive role-play session. It's unique in that as soon as I steer the thread in a non romantic, non ERP direction the person loses interest and leaves. This is the source of my contention with these characters and not their design specifically.

In Star Trek Online I had an extremely positive and excellent experience with a futanari. They fit their species perfectly into the lore, behaved like any other captain you'd meet in the setting yet with an interesting spin to their background. They respected my characters position in the Klingon Defense Force and at no time pushed the ERP agenda. Although at first I was distant the more I interacted with the character the more comfortable I became to the point of being good friends and always striking up an RP.

Because of that positive experience when I came to FFXIV and met a Futanari miqote I gave them the benefit of the doubt until I encountered otherwise.

I hope that cleared that up Big Grin

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