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Warren Castille · **10-20-2014, 08:03 AM**

(10-18-2014, 09:09 PM)Coatleque Wrote: Can an MMO once, just ONCE drop an expansion without raising a level cap? I am sure they can fill it with enough content and trinkets to keep things going without requiring us to grind out another ten useless levels and two - three more skill on an already full hotbar.

I liked how things were done with the gear iLevels. That would have been an acceptable system in and of itself.

I was thinking about this in the shower this morning. We don't know WHAT we're going to get in the comings levels, and I find that pretty exciting. Right now there's a fairly defined "skill every X levels, trait every Y" pattern that allows for growth all the way up to 50, plus job quests, plus class quests. I don't know if we can be sure those projections will continue.

I could totally see new traits added for class quests, for example. There could be some retooling without requiring a whole rebuild: Paladin trait so shield blocks restore TP, Monk trait to scale TP regen with GL stacks, etc.

I think regarding levels, though, there's just an innate expectation to get more when buying an expansion pack. Only game I can think of that really didn't do much with them was FFXI, since the "original" game already let you hit 75 when it landed stateside. There wouldn't be a level increase for seven or eight years, then there were three of them in rapid succession, following by one more to cap at 99 a year or two later. To my understanding the game is all iLvl now.

iLvl provides a degree of growth without needing new experience levels, but at some point I think they ("they" being the developers) need to equalize things for potential new/catching up players. Imagine someone returning to the game in 2.4 and wanting to gear up. There's a wealth of content they just burn through (namely any dungeon prior to Current Expert dungeons, and two tiers of old coil potentially) on top of things that just get skipped entirely (EX primals) on top of dead content that's extremely difficult to queue for (Westwind outside of poor Light times, CT1 and soon CT2). Once everyone's back to only having a handful of dungeons and trials it forces everyone back to working together.

Aldotsk · **10-20-2014, 09:18 AM**

While I want to try to agree with Coatleque's statement in people not wanting to level anymore because of extra skills that we will have to use, but honestly - I'd be really irritated of myself unable to play this game to explore newer parts of the world if I can't have a purpose, and that is getting EXP and leveling up.Â

As of right now, at level 50 - I am stuck. Getting new ilvl gear is not going to put my interest in going into newer contents.

I mean, sure. We can also talk about new classes and we have to level from 1 through 60 and it'll get boring and tedious. But sometimes, it's fun and something to kill your time since more people will get bored as hell if they aren't doing end game or Roleplaying after hitting the highest level.

Coatleque · **10-20-2014, 09:30 AM**

(10-20-2014, 08:03 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: There's a wealth of content they just burn through (namely any dungeon prior to Current Expert dungeons, and two tiers of old coil potentially) on top of things that just get skipped entirely (EX primals) on top of dead content that's extremely difficult to queue for (Westwind outside of poor Light times, CT1 and soon CT2).

But that already happens NOW. And it's not just me stating that. A constant thing on developers' minds is how all that hard work they did just goes to waste when new content comes out. Nobody ever goes back to the old stuff.

I am sure they can find some way to re-use the old stuff with the new.

Warren Castille · **10-20-2014, 09:52 AM**

(10-20-2014, 09:30 AM)Coatleque Wrote: But that already happens NOW. And it's not just me stating that. A constant thing on developers' minds is how all that hard work they did just goes to waste when new content comes out. Nobody ever goes back to the old stuff.

I am sure they can find some way to re-use the old stuff with the new.

Oh, I didn't mean to infer that it wasn't happening currently. SE's given themselves an obstacle with "only 24 exactly, no more no less" to older content. Very few people ran outdated raids in Warcraft (in my experiences, anyway) for the same reasons: you got better gear from new dungeons than old raids gave you. The exceptions were generations-old raids people did for achievements and the like, and the fact you could challenge raids solo. Considering the pacing of XIV currently, it scares me to think of the sort of numbers-bloat it would take to be able to down CT1/2 alone.

It's the problem with vertical progression, really. Not to constantly talk about XI (because trust me, it wasn't all roses and sunshine over there) but for a long, long time the "best in slot" gear was so explicitly situational you were changing equipment for every single action. One gear to fight in, one (or two, or three) to weaponskill in, extra enmity on tanks for each action, haste gear, recast gear, damage taken gear...

Creating a "complete" character required you to have beaten basically everything. Every expansion put out "sidegrades" that weren't truly better or worse than anything else barring extreme examples. Consider that gear available in 2003 was SUPERIOR to every competitive option until 2009. It was an odd game in that way. The way you keep people doing old content is by making new content not offer anything better, and that just makes people realize the skinner box is skinning much faster, ESPECIALLY in today's "I want it gimme gimme gimme" crowds.

Titan EX too hard nerf plz

Inessa Hara · **10-20-2014, 10:08 AM**

I dont see the problem with increased level cap. At worst, we would just be reworking hotbars and learning new rotations. Thats not going to kill anybody.

At best, we get a whole new addition of skills and abilities, new classes and probably more cross class skill slots or classes we can cross class with.

At most, the maximum amount of time you would spend on reorganizing you're hotbars is an hour at best.

Warren Castille · **10-20-2014, 10:11 AM**

(10-20-2014, 10:08 AM)Inessa Hara Wrote: I dont see the problem with increased level cap. At worst, we would just be reworking hotbars and learning new rotations. Thats not going to kill anybody.

At best, we get a whole new addition of skills and abilities, new classes and probably more cross class skill slots or classes we can cross class with.

At most, the maximum amount of time you would spend on reorganizing you're hotbars is an hour at best.

Dragoon is already a bloated mess of a priority system. Monk is already tightly-bound by just-long-enough effects to keep debuffs running. Adding new buttons to those sets would throw the whole thing off or not even be used. Warrior already has two "rotations" they can use and adding extra buttons would be borderline bloaty whereas paladin could stand to have something other than 123repeat.

Class balance is difficult, and it's not just about hotbars.

Aldotsk · **10-20-2014, 10:46 AM**

The Dragoon class system was already messy with the skills given to them. I doubt there will be any class balance systems since Final Fantasy classes had its own unique traits. Every one of them. To my belief, they are already "balanced". It's just matter of how players see if they are balanced or not. In the end, it just comes down to your style of playing, your skill and gears over how balance works.Â

But if we are talking about people wasted their effort on gaining awesome gears at the end game because of new expansions, WoW and other MMORPGs have done this a lot. This also applied to FFXI where when lvl 99 cap came out, the lvl 75 Dynamis gears meant nothing afterwards.

It's just marketing by developers to make players to regain their efforts to gain cooler gears or play longer so they dont get bored. If you did succeed in clearing the end-game dungeon on that old expansion or old content, the only thing you'll probably get would be a hand shake or achievement.

Also I would love to see Monk use Hundred Fists. They were originally supposed to have it too.

Warren Castille · **10-20-2014, 11:04 AM**

That's mostly what I meant: Some classes don't have room for new abilities without completely rewriting the established priorities while some classes have room for entire new combos.

Regarding Dynamis drops, though: Large, large portions of that gear was dead on arrival. I can think of RDM Hat, BLM Hat, DRG Helm and SAM Helm that stand out. There wasn't a single redeeming quality to most of those sets, though.

That reinforces my point, though: You were doing that old content for the few paltry good pieces of it. It would never fly in today's "everything must be good and everyone must get it in 3 months" economy.

I'm impressed SE's managed to give us new content every 3 months. I wonder if they're going to scale back come 3.0.

Aldotsk · **10-20-2014, 11:14 AM**

Probably not. According to Yoshida to his live letter from 2.1-2.2, he did mention that there are a lot of contents and needs to catch up from 1.0 lores and etc that they've missed due to fixing it into 2.0 ARR contents.

So the new patches will keep happening until Yoshi-P retires or resigns with Square Enix. His contract for Final Fantasy XIV project has been going on for about two years since 2011-2012, and his decision to stay or leave will be by 2016. (That's when most developers/producers leave after 4 year agreement term)

But also, FFXIV isn't throwing the entire content in one big patch like Tera/ArcheAge. There seems to be always newer part of story into the game. They probably estimated that regular casual players would beat the story mode within 2-3 months at least (By doing one or two quest per day at least along with some side quests and grinding. Casual players only play about one to three hours per day. - Heck not everyone plays during weekdays and play on weekends and yet they pay $12-15 per month because they enjoy it.). Which means that all of the story modes that we've had from 2.0-2.5 were actually just A Realm Reborn "expansion" itself with unique arc titles.

I have a feeling that it'll slow down by 4.0-5.0 expansion but 3.0? I think Yoshida still has more stuff in his pockets to show every 3 months.

Coatleque · **10-20-2014, 11:14 AM**

(10-20-2014, 10:08 AM)Inessa Hara Wrote: I dont see the problem with increased level cap. ...

Aldotsk Wrote:But if we are talking about people wasted their effort on gaining awesome gears at the end game because of new expansions, WoW and other MMORPGs have done this a lot. ...

I don't see it as a 'problem' either. I am simply tired (see: not bored) of the same mechanic every single time. I wish someone would just do something different for an expansion rather than regurgitate the same experience in another ten levels followed by the same 'end-game' again.

Inessa Hara · **10-20-2014, 11:47 AM**

@Coatleque
Well what did you expect then? Most games with RPG mechanics and story's are played be leveling up and going through a storyline and I cant possible think of a single game that hasn't done this. (This is excluding non-RPG games though.)

Okay, so there is ONE game I can think of thats an RPG that hasnt done this in exact terms and that's last remnant. There is no level system, but they have this thing called battle rank which levels up based on the number of battles and how difficult they were and characters have their stats increased based on their selective units performance in battle and the games story arc can be progressed (and completed) at any battle rank, even at the lowest possible level. Quests can also be taken and completed at any level as well.

Back to my point though. If this was MMO like guild wars 2 were players could play and complete the game at level they want or go about the story in any way they choose then maybe, but Final Fantasy XIV is built in a way that would require a complete overhaul like they did with 1.0 for it to work.

Basically, the game, built the way it is, accomplishes the style in which it was built for perfectly. Some people may not like it. Others will, but it does what it was styled to do perfectly.

@Warren
I am sure the developer's are considering how they will be balancing the current classes to work with a new level cap and they will most likely implement something to balance it out.

Foxling · **10-20-2014, 12:16 PM**

(10-20-2014, 10:11 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(10-20-2014, 10:08 AM)Inessa Hara Wrote: I dont see the problem with increased level cap. At worst, we would just be reworking hotbars and learning new rotations. Thats not going to kill anybody.

At best, we get a whole new addition of skills and abilities, new classes and probably more cross class skill slots or classes we can cross class with.

At most, the maximum amount of time you would spend on reorganizing you're hotbars is an hour at best.

Dragoon is already a bloated mess of a priority system. Monk is already tightly-bound by just-long-enough effects to keep debuffs running. Adding new buttons to those sets would throw the whole thing off or not even be used. Warrior already has two "rotations" they can use and adding extra buttons would be borderline bloaty whereas paladin could stand to have something other than 123repeat.

Class balance is difficult, and it's not just about hotbars.

In terms of Monk, yes it's based on timing and such so adding a new attacking/debuff ability would either throw things off or be pointless, but there's always the chance that they'll be given a self-buff or something instead.

Adding new buttons doesn't necessarily have to lead to everything being thrown out the window and reworked from the ground up.

Warren Castille · **10-20-2014, 12:32 PM**

(10-20-2014, 12:16 PM)Foxling Wrote: In terms of Monk, yes it's based on timing and such so adding a new attacking/debuff ability would either throw things off or be pointless, but there's always the chance that they'll be given a self-buff or something instead.

Adding new buttons doesn't necessarily have to lead to everything being thrown out the window and reworked from the ground up.

I blame WoW for my kneejerk reaction, especially with how they treated paladin for a long time.

It would be nice to see other effects, or even off-GCD things.

Oscare · **10-20-2014, 12:53 PM**

Right now, the FFXIV fornula is a skill at every two levels (alternating between an action and a trait (petition for AoE Stoneskin lol #rek't inb4theyremovestoneskin)). This raise to 60 THEORETICALLY (assuming that they don't change up the formula but lets not be like 96% of the FFXIV population) means five new actions and four new traits. However, I can see that the general consensus seems to br that there are already a satisfactory amount of actions. This begs the question of whether they're going to be MORE actions, or if these jobs are going to get more actions at all.

I think it's a legitimate concern, and I don't really think there's ANY way of knowing besides just waiting and keeping an open mind about it. Don't be The Assuming Crowd. The higher the standards, the stronger the disappoint. (Does 2,38 housing ddisappoint ring a bell?)

Warren Castille · **10-20-2014, 12:57 PM**

(10-20-2014, 12:53 PM)Oscare Wrote: Right now, the FFXIV fornula is a skill at every two levels (alternating between an action and a trait (petition for AoE Stoneskin lol #rek't inb4theyremovestoneskin)). This raise to 60 THEORETICALLY (assuming that they don't change up the formula but lets not be like 96% of the FFXIV population) means five new actions and four new traits. However, I can see that the general consensus seems to br that there are already a satisfactory amount of actions. This begs the question of whether they're going to be MORE actions, or if these jobs are going to get more actions at all.

I think it's a legitimate concern, and I don't really think there's ANY way of knowing besides just waiting and keeping an open mind about it. Don't be The Assuming Crowd. The higher the standards, the stronger the disappoint. (Does 2,38 housing ddisappoint ring a bell?)

My personal expectations are a new trait or two along the trail and two new job thingies, one at 55 and one at 60. Let the leveling process reward like, Enhanced Stat 5 and 6 and maybe one for extra fluff, then everyone gets a new pair of skills from their class expansion.

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RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes