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Warren Castille · **11-07-2014, 01:17 PM**

(11-07-2014, 10:20 AM)Niklas Gran Wrote: As of this post, I will only be a minor for around 2-3 months, so I have a question: Does a kiss count as sexually-charged? I personally think it should be ok if a character kisses another, be it on a cheek or on the lips. To me that does not count as a sexual offenses or porn.

I've already alerted the authorities. Yer' doomed, kiddo!

I'm surprised there's this much conversation about the topic. Don't diddle kids, and if you must diddle, diddle privately, with someone you know won't think you're just escapisming your pedo urges. I think we can all agree kid-diddling is wrong.

Diddle.

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Tiergan · **11-07-2014, 01:24 PM**

I am a lot more understanding of two people playing teenaged characters actually, genuinely exploring the awkward clusterfuck that is teenage sexuality even if one is 19 and the other is 17. There's so much potential for hilarious storytelling.

The thing I am more specifically talking about are characters where there is an obvious age gap and we have older characters pursuing ones that are much younger - like a 25 year old hitting on a 15 year old or a 16 year old trying to jump on the bones of a 27 year old.

In terms of the argument that "We do so much worse things like murder, torture, rape, etc in RP!"

Those are all horrible things that we RP as horrible things played for drama and conflict. They also usually happen to adult characters. When they happen to child characters, the horror and impact of it is seen as even worse.

No one can tell me that the dude trying to hit on my friend's young miqo'te teen or my 15 year old lalafell is trying to RP a child-adult romance for the horror and narrative of it. Or that teenaged characters trying to get into Tiergan's pantaloons are doing it as a horrible thing played for drama and conflict. They're usually thinking that they can initiate it the same way as they would any other RP romance and move it along like any other RP relationship.

I know we let a lot of things slide as RPers for story-purposes, but normalizing an adult-child romantic relationship and its fetishization is creepy, enabling of really dangerous behavior, and should just not be one of those things we just let happen, guys.

Call it inciting a witchhunt if you will. At the very least, I shouldn't have to put a "No ERP" tag on my 15 year old character just to avoid it.

EDIT: Most awkward and hilarious typo ever. :V

Warren Castille · **11-07-2014, 01:38 PM**

I don't think any particular topic is off-limits for writing/roleplay, but I do think things need to be handled tastefully and maturely. It's difficult enough to get people to acknowledge lalafell can have non-lalafell partners. Tacking the Minor tag on top of it is... Well, yeah. That'd send up warning signs for sure, coming from a stranger.

Zhavi · **11-07-2014, 01:47 PM**

(11-07-2014, 01:24 PM)Tiergan Wrote: No one can tell me that the dude trying to hit on my friend's young miqo'te teen or my 15 year old lalafell is trying to RP a child-adult romance for the horror and narrative of it. Or that teenaged characters trying to get into Tiergan's pantaloons are doing it as a horrible thing played for drama and conflict. They're usually thinking that they can initiate it the same way as they would any other RP romance and move it along like any other RP relationship.

I know we let a lot of things slide as RPers for story-purposes, but normalizing an adult-child romantic relationship and its fertilization is creepy, enabling of really dangerous behavior, and should just not be one of those things we just let happen, guys.

Call it inciting a witchhunt if you will. At the very least, I shouldn't have to put a "No ERP" tag on my 15 year old character just to avoid it.

I think, then, that there is an acknowledged difference between those players engaging in storytelling, and those engaging in predatory or . . .hmm, socially unacceptable behavior that promotes victimization. In which case, I don't think anyone in the thread is encouraging the ooc side of things where people do ic things for personal ooc reasons (ie, pushing a character to do something not because it's something the character would do, but because the player wants it to happen no matter what); none of that is okay, in my book, because real people wind up getting hurt or victimized.

But, yes, there are some rpers who do push boundaries and write questionable material either to push themselves or try out some form of writing (after all, there are plenty of rpers who use rp as a means to practice in the hopes of one day writing something more serious). I agree that they're more likely a minority, however, and honestly I wouldn't be comfortable writing really questionable stuff with people outside of people I've rped with for a long time and have gotten to know oocly for just that reason -- I don't want it to be used as a means of, well, getting someone off.

But, to me, there is a level of squeamishness that I tend to avoid no matter the age of the character, where things go from legitimate attempt to use situation to further story or character development to sheer gratuity. At that point (and I agree, the threshold is lower the younger the character is), to me, it is pointless to write because it has utterly no point beyond the gratuity, and that's where things get dangerous.

But, all of that said, everyone's level of comfort is different, and, you know, the point of a community is to be able to air your opinions -- especially where you fear something is going on that is detrimental to the community. So, I don't think you should feel like people think you're inciting a witchhunt. You're genuinely concerned, and should be applauded for speaking up on a matter you feel is important.

(and, just to be clear on my own end, I'm speaking from the angle of emotionally and physically immature characters (children or teenagers) being written by two adults. I tend to avoid writing anything really awful with people I know are young because there is (usually!) mental and emotional immaturity, and I do believe some things should wait. I know a young man who lied on another site I am on about his age in order to be allowed in, as there is an age limit of 16. While we forbade him to participate in anything questionable until he turned 18, stuff happened as it so often does. He was only 14 or 15 when he joined, and unfortunately he got taken advantage of by a 19 year old girl who, though the age difference wasn't that great, still manipulated and hurt him and some other of our male writers -- unbeknownst to the staff, this kid was getting threats from other guys on site to stay away from her, and it was just this huge cluster. As he told me, he thought he was old enough/mature enough to handle it -- and he wasn't. That's the problem, and where predation becomes such a huge deal)

Kellach Woods · **11-07-2014, 09:16 PM**

(11-06-2014, 05:21 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: Just wanted to say that you really can't expect people to not pursue your character romantically or sexually just because he or she is a Lalafell, especially considering how ridiculously randy Lalafell NPCs are in-game.

You'd think Lalas were rabbits considering how bad they can get.

Fishing is the lewdest profession, and they involve lalas all the way through.

Anyone who's seen my chronicled journey throughout the wonders of leveling up to 50 FSH knows fully well just how bad it gets. Most of it is centered around Lalas being randy as fuck.

* * *

Personal disclaimer, I know where Z's coming from with the whole ERPin' in times where it would land peeps in trouble. Or postin' some saucy fanfiction.

That being said, I know a friend who'll ask for the IRL age of the person that they're about to engage in EPIC ROLE PLAY (that's what ERP stands for, right?) They refuse to disclose/are underage? Automatic fade to black. Personally, I might have done stupid shit before but I admire her for that stand and am definitely on board with doing it myself.

Did the person what was about doing the nasty while underage do it before? Most likely. However, whether or not they did before has no standing on what you think about this issue, and if you accept/refuse to do so it is entirely your choice. Emphasis entirely because I feel it's necessary to state that your comfort > their ERPin'.

Chlodomer · **11-07-2014, 09:37 PM**

Kellach Woods · **11-07-2014, 09:52 PM**

The entire point of the stance is saucy stuff is 18+.

Character a minor = No.
IRL a minor = Hell no.

crowmeleon · **11-07-2014, 09:56 PM**

(11-07-2014, 09:16 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote:
(11-06-2014, 05:21 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: Just wanted to say that you really can't expect people to not pursue your character romantically or sexually just because he or she is a Lalafell, especially considering how ridiculously randy Lalafell NPCs are in-game.
You'd think Lalas were rabbits considering how bad they can get.

Fishing is the lewdest profession, and they involve lalas all the way through.

Anyone who's seen my chronicled journey throughout the wonders of leveling up to 50 FSH knows fully well just how bad it gets. Most of it is centered around Lalas being randy as fuck.

* * *

Personal disclaimer, I know where Z's coming from with the whole ERPin' in times where it would land peeps in trouble. Or postin' some saucy fanfiction.

That being said, I know a friend who'll ask for the IRL age of the person that they're about to engage in EPIC ROLE PLAY (that's what ERP stands for, right?) They refuse to disclose/are underage? Automatic fade to black. Personally, I might have done stupid shit before but I admire her for that stand and am definitely on board with doing it myself.

Did the person what was about doing the nasty while underage do it before? Most likely. However, whether or not they did before has no standing on what you think about this issue, and if you accept/refuse to do so it is entirely your choice. Emphasis entirely because I feel it's necessary to state that your comfort > their ERPin'.

Â
I will repeat however that even if someone lies about their age, you are still legally culpable for whatever transpires between you. Same goes for if you sleep with someone telling you they're of age but are not.Â

Secondly, I didn't really expect so many cases of actual minors involved in ERP... But I would warn that even if you do not participate but are made aware of the 'abuse' occurring, you are now legally implicated in the crime taking place in many places (In the same way a teacher who doesn't speak up when they find out a child is being abused is legally obligated to speak up). Now obviously reporting your friends to the authorities isn't practical, as I doubt anyone would do it- But if this kind of situation comes to light I do think you are obligated to let all parties involved know that what they are engaging in is illegal, and the risks that poses to EVERYONE involved, yourself included.Â

At the end of the day though it's true, the people who do this will likely do it regardless of the objections of the community. Which is sad, to think that underage characters would have to specify 'no erp' as if anything otherwise is automatically fair game if you don't state it beforehand. So I think the only thing that can be done is to encourage people to forego etiquette and straight up tell these people to 'fuck off'- At ANY point in the rp, and to just retcon/blist that person. And to look out for minors in our community and make sure they are aware of the laws regarding ERP, as well as any adults who may be approaching them in that manner.Â

My personal feelings aside I can't force anyone to do anything.Â

So really all I can do is implore anyone participating in this roleplay act with utmost prudence in those they approach with the subject matter. Legal or no, it is a subject many people are extremely uncomfortable with, whether they are personally involved or just witness it from afar. Other weighty subjects have been brought up (Torture, murder, rape) and I think those things fall under content you should first discuss with rp partners beforehand- So sexual or even just romantic interactions involving underage characters should be handled the same way. ASK beforehand. If someone is going to reject or judge you when you ask honestly, they would have done the same when you brought it up IC.Â

No matter how you feel about the matter, knowing many people take offense at the subject and bluntly throwing it upon every underage character regardless is rude and inconsiderate.

Tiergan · **11-07-2014, 10:03 PM**

(11-07-2014, 09:56 PM)crowmeleon Wrote: Other weighty subjects have been brought up (Torture, murder, rape) and I think those things fall under content you should first discuss with rp partners beforehand- So sexual or even just romantic interactions involving underage characters should be handled the same way. ASK beforehand. If someone is going to reject or judge you when you ask honestly, they would have done the same when you brought it up IC.Â

No matter how you feel about the matter, knowing many people take offense at the subject and bluntly throwing it upon every underage character regardless is rude and inconsiderate.

THIS.

I shouldn't have to stick a tag in my character's search info. People should have the common decency to at least send a tell first before diving right into talk about penises and attempting to kiss an underage character five minutes after meeting them (which, by the way, is what made me post this). Right now they do not, and that's why people like myself, Sophia and others are frustrated that when we're on our alts and mains that are essentially children we have to ward off creeps with a stick.

I can only imagine how messed up it must be for an actual teenager RPing a character that is a minor to have to deal with this.

Kellach Woods · **11-07-2014, 10:52 PM**

(11-07-2014, 09:56 PM)crowmeleon Wrote: I will repeat however that even if someone lies about their age, you are still legally culpable for whatever transpires between you. Same goes for if you sleep with someone telling you they're of age but are not.Â

Secondly, I didn't really expect so many cases of actual minors involved in ERP... But I would warn that even if you do not participate but are made aware of the 'abuse' occurring, you are now legally implicated in the crime taking place in many places (In the same way a teacher who doesn't speak up when they find out a child is being abused is legally obligated to speak up). Now obviously reporting your friends to the authorities isn't practical, as I doubt anyone would do it- But if this kind of situation comes to light I do think you are obligated to let all parties involved know that what they are engaging in is illegal, and the risks that poses to EVERYONE involved, yourself included.Â

At the end of the day though it's true, the people who do this will likely do it regardless of the objections of the community. Which is sad, to think that underage characters would have to specify 'no erp' as if anything otherwise is automatically fair game if you don't state it beforehand. So I think the only thing that can be done is to encourage people to forego etiquette and straight up tell these people to 'fuck off'- At ANY point in the rp, and to just retcon/blist that person. And to look out for minors in our community and make sure they are aware of the laws regarding ERP, as well as any adults who may be approaching them in that manner.Â

My personal feelings aside I can't force anyone to do anything.Â

So really all I can do is implore anyone participating in this roleplay act with utmost prudence in those they approach with the subject matter. Legal or no, it is a subject many people are extremely uncomfortable with, whether they are personally involved or just witness it from afar. Other weighty subjects have been brought up (Torture, murder, rape) and I think those things fall under content you should first discuss with rp partners beforehand- So sexual or even just romantic interactions involving underage characters should be handled the same way. ASK beforehand. If someone is going to reject or judge you when you ask honestly, they would have done the same when you brought it up IC.Â

No matter how you feel about the matter, knowing many people take offense at the subject and bluntly throwing it upon every underage character regardless is rude and inconsiderate.

Oh god that first paragraph made me remember the Rob Feinstein ep of TCAP ("lol I'll pretend you said 18")

Best way to avoid this situation is OOC communication as you said! Also, don't schtoink anyone who seems remotely like a minor.

Adult lalas don't look like minors.

allgivenover · **11-07-2014, 11:08 PM**

(11-07-2014, 10:45 AM)Gaspard Wrote: and if you try to brush it off with 'It's RP so everything goes' you clearly do not understand the social dynamic behind roleplay and the inevitable link between player and character.

I think the primary difference between myself and those here who think there are things about RP that should be off limits - the topic at hand - is that I view RP as a writing exercise, because being a writer was my first and lasting dream even though I'm a software developer now.

I look at my RP as a shared narrative that I'm crafting with other people, and the simple truth of the matter is that most other RPers are far, far closer to their RP characters personally than I am to my own. So much so that when faced with something like this they simply cannot see it as anything but the other individual indulging a personal desire and rightfully feel revulsion and react with rejection. It's perfectly reasonable to expect that most would be this way and it's kind of silly how often I forget it.

Honestly it was a little too much effort on my part even posting about it. It's not even anything that happens with Rakka'li, in fact the vast majority of the people he's been involved with have been older than him - in one case ten years older!

crowmeleon · **11-08-2014, 12:05 AM**

(11-07-2014, 11:08 PM)allgivenover Wrote:
(11-07-2014, 10:45 AM)Gaspard Wrote: and if you try to brush it off with 'It's RP so everything goes' you clearly do not understand the social dynamic behind roleplay and the inevitable link between player and character.

I think the primary difference between myself and those here who think there are things about RP that should be off limits - the topic at hand - is that I view RP as a writing exercise, because being a writer was my first and lasting dream even though I'm a software developer now.

I look at my RP as a shared narrative that I'm crafting with other people, and the simple truth of the matter is that most other RPers are far, far closer to their RP characters personally than I am to my own. So much so that when faced with something like this they simply cannot see it as anything but the other individual indulging a personal desire and rightfully feel revulsion and react with rejection. It's perfectly reasonable to expect that most would be this way and it's kind of silly how often I forget it.

Honestly it was a little too much effort on my part even posting about it. It's not even anything that happens with Rakka'li, in fact the vast majority of the people he's been involved with have been older than him - in one case ten years older!

No you definitely had a few fair points, and like you said the hard part about this is that I don't think the people who are doing it inappropriately will stop any time soon. I just hope this isn't an inescapable trend. Â And I think it's true- A lot of the problem with discussing this topic is that it's instinct to approach it from our own minds where our portrayal of such matter could be approached from a perfectly literary context with no erotic intent. Not everyone's intentions are so noble, which even then I could tolerate (regardless of my personal opinions) if it didn't adversely affect others.

Kinono · **11-10-2014, 02:14 AM**

I agree that underage sex RP is bad bad bad.

So long as no one tries to stop my 20-something lalafell from dating her 20-something lalafell boyfriend because they make her "uncomfortable," I'm fine. 'Cause I really would not be cool with being community-policed away from doing something that is totally and well within the possibilities of the world.

Gwen · **11-10-2014, 07:29 AM**

I know it was mentioned in the first couple of pages, but people really need to stop using 18+ as a rule.
So I suppose this is just aimed at people that have that set age at 18, and think anything lower is bad.

Not all countries use 18 as the age of consent. Gwen is 17, and if she ended up in such a situation, I wouldn't want people looking down on me because of her age.

She's a year older than is allowed here in England, so I think just sticking to an 18+ rule is not going to help the situation. Obviously I think a tiny 10 year old lalafell is off limits(Or any 10 year old), but my point is more that a lot of places have younger ages set so it might just be a nitpicky thing, but the age can vary depending on where you're located, some places have no laws, while others might be as low as puberty.

But don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to justify ERP with the young people, (I don't really enjoy it with any ages) and if they are young out of game, It would still be an issue, but my point is that saying 18+ is only going to cause issues if you yourself dislike anything younger than that age going for a diddle

Kailia · **11-10-2014, 10:01 AM**

I am gonna weigh in myself. Firstly, ERP with a real world minor is definitely a no. Absolutely under no circumstances if you know your partner is under the legal age in your area, should you engage in that behavior. However, that being said, unless we have the partner's start faxing us copies of their real world ID's, which will never happen, all folks can do is take the other persons word they are of legal age.

Now on the part of RPing characters that are considered under aged, lore also plays a significant role in how old or how young a character would be. If lore dictates that a certain race is considered an adult at a certain age, and the character meets up with the lore, even though real world laws would consider the character under age, then sorry but I feel lore trumps here. This is an imaginary world where we got giant green/blue/red skinned hulks, elegant long limbed and lock necked elves, youthful looking cat people, and even a race that looks like child elves.

But I do agree, that people should not be running up to an in-character 15 year old lalafell child to solicit for sex. And the best way to handle them, is to send them a whisper explaining the character is roleplayed as a child, and as such, their behavior is both unwarranted and illegal. Chances are, they will back off. If they don't, open a ticket with a GM, and if they are in an FC, considering you'd asked them to stop, and they refuse, usually a good idea to let their FC Officers know of the behavior as well.

That's my two gil.

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PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor.

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