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McBeefâ„¢ · **12-29-2014, 03:36 PM**

(12-29-2014, 12:15 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote:
(12-29-2014, 10:12 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote: This, though I view it less as losing your second ring and more as having three rings. Would you rather have a healer or damage dealer who is at their max potential, or one who is 30 points shy of one who is?

I'm not saying a SCH with 30 INT isn't capable of healing, but if the system wasn't what it is that wouldn't even be a problem, and that is the issue with Dual Job classes.

I'd rather have one who's more focused on improving their play than where they spent 30 points. I don't care that my SCH got 30 points in friggin' STR. Just, y'know, DO THE JOB.

I always wondered why they allowed stat distribution if there was clearly a superior spec anyway. Any game that has player-chosen stat distribution will have that, and it's just another hassle and point of contention between players for them to argue and hate each other over. I mean, for PUG why wouldn't I put 30 STR? There is literally no other stat that will improve anything I have to do.

There are some interesting things you can do with stats. For example, for my Tanks I usually go almost all strength, whereas others use vitality. If you're not a lalafell as a BLM you need to dip a few points into piety for the super flare rotation. Bards with a few points in piety get heavily increased uptimes on their songs.

There is some opportunity for tinkering. It's not always as simple as '30 in your primary'

Ashren Dotharl · **12-29-2014, 03:39 PM**

(12-29-2014, 03:36 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: If you're not a lalafell as a BLM you need to dip a few points into piety for the super flare rotation.

As someone who plays a Seeker of the Sun I can actually say this isn't true, though I suppose maybe it depends on your gear? All I can say is that I can do the super flare rotation without any issues and I'm full 30 into Int.

Zyrusticae · **12-29-2014, 03:48 PM**

(12-29-2014, 03:36 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: There are some interesting things you can do with stats. For example, for my Tanks I usually go almost all strength, whereas others use vitality.

This is a false choice. STR is always going to be superior to VIT simply because situations where a little VIT makes or breaks an encounter are extremely rare while STR is always useful for building aggro faster and speeding up clear times. VIT accessories will give you all the VIT you will ever need.

(I don't even bother upgrading my VIT accessories because I don't run Coil which is literally the ONLY place where they are useful at all; the entire rest of the game benefits from killing things faster.)

McBeefâ„¢ · **12-29-2014, 03:49 PM**

(12-29-2014, 03:48 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:
(12-29-2014, 03:36 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: There are some interesting things you can do with stats. For example, for my Tanks I usually go almost all strength, whereas others use vitality.
This is a false choice. STR is always going to be superior to VIT simply because situations where a little VIT makes or breaks an encounter are extremely rare while STR is always useful for building aggro faster and speeding up clear times. VIT accessories will give you all the VIT you will ever need.

(I don't even bother upgrading my VIT accessories because I don't run Coil which is literally the ONLY place where they are useful at all; the entire rest of the game benefits from killing things faster.)

Well I endgame. Anything other than coil you could put you tank points in piety, and it won't matter.

Warren Castille · **12-29-2014, 03:53 PM**

Jobs changing Stat to VIT and tanks changing VIT to STR are the only exceptions to the rule, and you don't see much of the former. The latter is done once HP pools are requisite enough to survive an encounter without dying, and has a lot to do with healer ability. It still remains that SMN/SCH are the only class that is forced to pick between one or the other. It's part of the half-baked same-class-different-role that no other job has been saddled with (and looks like no other job ever will be, given the current trend of job-only).

It's inconsistent and SCH/SMN players are justified in feeling mishandled, because they have been.

McBeefâ„¢ · **12-29-2014, 03:54 PM**

(12-29-2014, 03:53 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Jobs changing Stat to VIT and tanks changing VIT to STR are the only exceptions to the rule, and you don't see much of the former. The latter is done once HP pools are requisite enough to survive an encounter without dying, and has a lot to do with healer ability. It still remains that SMN/SCH are the only class that is forced to pick between one or the other. It's part of the half-baked same-class-different-role that no other job has been saddled with (and looks like no other job ever will be, given the current trend of job-only).

It's inconsistent and SCH/SMN players are justified in feeling mishandled, because they have been.

I agree, but I don't think the answer is "Take out stat bonuses" because I like them. I think there could be more cool ways to spread stats around in the future.

Warren Castille · **12-29-2014, 03:56 PM**

(12-29-2014, 03:54 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(12-29-2014, 03:53 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Jobs changing Stat to VIT and tanks changing VIT to STR are the only exceptions to the rule, and you don't see much of the former. The latter is done once HP pools are requisite enough to survive an encounter without dying, and has a lot to do with healer ability. It still remains that SMN/SCH are the only class that is forced to pick between one or the other. It's part of the half-baked same-class-different-role that no other job has been saddled with (and looks like no other job ever will be, given the current trend of job-only).

It's inconsistent and SCH/SMN players are justified in feeling mishandled, because they have been.

I agree, but I don't think the answer is "Take out stat bonuses" because I like them. I think there could be more cool ways to spread stats around in the future.

Agreed as well.

Zyrusticae · **12-29-2014, 04:46 PM**

(12-29-2014, 03:49 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: Well I endgame. Anything other than coil you could put you tank points in piety, and it won't matter.

Oh no, it definitely matters. I see a lot of tanks running with full VIT gear in expert dungeons and that DOES slow the run down considerably.

At any rate, the point that 30 VIT isn't going to make a difference even in Coil still remains. Accessories can be switched out at-will and have a much bigger effect on your overall stat budget so it only makes sense to have two sets you switch between instead of pouring points into a very situational stat "just in case".

Aaron · **12-29-2014, 06:05 PM**

I never put a point in VIT for my tank and when fully geared I got 8k plus hp as a PLD.

Really just get the soldiery gear unweathered and that's all the hp you'll need up till FCoB

Hiro · **12-29-2014, 08:32 PM**

Keep in mind the inherent differences between a STR geared Tank and a VIT Geared one.

As a warrior the trend has been for them to wear STR acc. once they hit the 10k HP mark while in a party and with items, healers are used to it in general.

Paladins have only JUST reached this plateau and are far less geared/skilled for it. Further the gear sets that are STR based for Tanks are also low in mitigation this means that a VIT PLD not only has better soaking ability they won't dip in HP nearly as fast as a STR PLD. As a newer healer I absolutely despise STR PLD's (and I mean the ones who think they're gearing like 10k HP WARs), you're the mitigation tank stop pretending like your STR and CRIT rate matter.

If a dungeon run is slow a PLD with STR gear vs one with VIT gear isn't going to speed anything up nor are they going to be any better or worse at holding aggro. If they're losing aggro it's likely due to something else other than VIT and STR, more likely skill/rotation/acc.Â

FF isn't a difficult game in terms of core concepts, it favors the Tri-Force/Holy Trinity and does it well. Tank, DPS, Healer. Unfortunately it does mean you're somewhat stuck to your given role, unless you have Holy. Mmm, Holy. Even then, DPS should be more than capable of doing their job without outside assistance in their area of expertise...

And clearing up misinformation:

30 points into VIT is far more valuable to a PLD than 30 points into STR in the overall game. Top out don't try and baby subpar stats.

Zyrusticae · **12-29-2014, 11:15 PM**

Now that's misinformation!

For your knowledge, there is no difference between the value of VIT for PLDs and WARs. Zero. None. Zilch. Shield Oath's damage mitigation is THE EXACT SAME THING as Defiance's bonus HP+bonus healing. The only difference is in the numbers you see. 25% damage mitigation works out to the exact same math as 25% more HP + healing. (Yes, PLD has +5% damage penalty on shield oath and Defiance has -5% less bonus healing than it does bonus HP but that small a difference doesn't fundamentally change the value of the stats.)

(12-29-2014, 08:32 PM)Hiro Wrote: Further the gear sets that are STR based for Tanks are also low in mitigation this means that a VIT PLD not only has better soaking ability they won't dip in HP nearly as fast as a STR PLD.

And this is just nonsense. Accessories don't have anything to do with mitigation (except +parry which is a dump stat) and ALL tank sets of the same ilvl have defense, STR, and VIT in equal amounts. What in the world are you even talking about here?

Ashren Dotharl · **12-30-2014, 12:44 AM**

(12-29-2014, 03:54 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(12-29-2014, 03:53 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Jobs changing Stat to VIT and tanks changing VIT to STR are the only exceptions to the rule, and you don't see much of the former. The latter is done once HP pools are requisite enough to survive an encounter without dying, and has a lot to do with healer ability. It still remains that SMN/SCH are the only class that is forced to pick between one or the other. It's part of the half-baked same-class-different-role that no other job has been saddled with (and looks like no other job ever will be, given the current trend of job-only).

It's inconsistent and SCH/SMN players are justified in feeling mishandled, because they have been.

I agree, but I don't think the answer is "Take out stat bonuses" because I like them. I think there could be more cool ways to spread stats around in the future.

I for one never suggested they should take stat allocation out of the game, I just stated that stat allocation should be job dependent, meaning that SMN and SCH would have to sets of 30 points to spend how they want instead of 30 points to share between the two.

Sounsyy · **12-30-2014, 03:23 AM**

Not to further derail the thread, but as someone who mains tank (WAR and PLD) I have to throw my full support behind STR spec'ing. In my opinion, no geared tank should be wearing VIT accessories/spec into VIT for anything outside of T9-13, where maxing HP is a necessity for survival. Quite literally, all VIT does for you is boost your HP and there is no content outside of S/FCoB that requires either tank class to walk around with 8-12k HP.

STR is useful for both tank classes in every instance. Higher DPS, faster enmity control, and higher Block/Parry mitigation are worlds more useful than having an extra 1k total HP. And you don't need the +Parry off of VIT accessories. Your left-side gear has more than enough Parry stat to Parry frequently in instances where you can actually Parry. Adding more of the stat is really just a waste of good DPS. Some fights you can't Parry at all because magic damage and so often you see Off Tanks stacking Parry when they aren't even being hit. In both of those instances, Parry is a completely useless stat.

This is of course coming from a well-geared and experienced tank. If you aren't well geared or feel uncomfortable without the extra HP safety blanket, by all means, use VIT until you are comfortable with the content. Eventually you'll get to a point where Echo or Item Level or experience will afford you abundant supplies of HP that your diligent and equally geared Healer (Eos) will never let you use and then you can start to explore the wonders of STR spec'ing.

On topic: I'm glad they aren't adding more double jobs branching from single classes, cuz good lord SMN/SCH is one heck of an unnecessary allocation mess.

Ashren Dotharl · **12-30-2014, 05:42 AM**

(12-30-2014, 03:23 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: Not to further derail the thread, but as someone who mains tank (WAR and PLD) I have to throw my full support behind STR spec'ing. In my opinion, no geared tank should be wearing VIT accessories/spec into VIT for anything outside of T9-13, where maxing HP is a necessity for survival. Quite literally, all VIT does for you is boost your HP and there is no content outside of S/FCoB that requires either tank class to walk around with 8-12k HP.

STR is useful for both tank classes in every instance. Higher DPS, faster enmity control, and higher Block/Parry mitigation are worlds more useful than having an extra 1k total HP. And you don't need the +Parry off of VIT accessories. Your left-side gear has more than enough Parry stat to Parry frequently in instances where you can actually Parry. Adding more of the stat is really just a waste of good DPS. Some fights you can't Parry at all because magic damage and so often you see Off Tanks stacking Parry when they aren't even being hit. In both of those instances, Parry is a completely useless stat.

This is of course coming from a well-geared and experienced tank. If you aren't well geared or feel uncomfortable without the extra HP safety blanket, by all means, use VIT until you are comfortable with the content. Eventually you'll get to a point where Echo or Item Level or experience will afford you abundant supplies of HP that your diligent and equally geared Healer (Eos) will never let you use and then you can start to explore the wonders of STR spec'ing.

On topic: I'm glad they aren't adding more double jobs branching from single classes, cuz good lord SMN/SCH is one heck of an unnecessary allocation mess.

You're still agreeing though that the best course of action is going 30 STR? Not 15 VIT 15 STR? Because the argument isn't necessarily that a Tank has to go 30 points into VIT, it's just that whatever they do decide to dump their stats into, whether VIT or STR, the best option is to go 30 into it.

OttoVann · **12-30-2014, 05:50 AM**

The tanks in my static are full STR and use ruby melded right side and tanked t10-12 and onto 13 that way. They MAY go half vit/str for t13 for our first kill. You do not need full vit for FCOB.

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