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Zyrusticae · **02-17-2015, 11:41 AM**

(02-17-2015, 09:41 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote: Tanks/Heals will NEVER be staffed enough for the needs of any MMO.

There are simply too many DPS classes that are fun to play as opposed to these two roles which simply aren't for most players. I lucked out and they made WAR fun as hell for me but until they solve that mechanical problem, it doesn't matter how fast the queues are, it doesn't matter how rewarded you are for it, few people will want to do it.

Hence why I want more tank classes that are fun to play to help mitigate the issue.

Funny thing, from my memory Aion never really had this problem simply because both templars and especially gladiators were (probably still are) really fun to play and also very competent at dishing out as good as they take. Every time someone says tanks will always be understaffed, I think back to that game.

Then again, I am biased as someone who usually mains a tank class to begin with. Still, FFXIV is particularly egregious in this regard and this is largely because the game's ridiculous 1-1-2 group composition completely ignores the reality of the game as it stands. Since that's not changing, the only solution is to throw in MOAR TANKS.

Btw, Astrologian is more popular than Dark Knight, as weird as that sounds. Unless that poll is not a representative sample (and at 5000 votes that is extremely unlikely), healers will still be considerably more common than tanks, though Machinist's lack of popularity may help balance things out a bit.

Gegenji · **02-18-2015, 11:55 AM**

(02-17-2015, 11:41 AM)Zyrusticae Wrote: Btw, Astrologian is more popular than Dark Knight, as weird as that sounds. Unless that poll is not a representative sample (and at 5000 votes that is extremely unlikely), healers will still be considerably more common than tanks, though Machinist's lack of popularity may help balance things out a bit.

Wait, wait, the Machinist ISN'T popular? Maybe it's just Balmung, but I've been hearing plenty of people that want to switch their main over to Machinist as soon as it drops. Heck, there are plenty of folks RPing people who use guns already.

Kage · **02-18-2015, 12:06 PM**

(02-18-2015, 11:55 AM)Gegenji Wrote:
(02-17-2015, 11:41 AM)Zyrusticae Wrote: Btw, Astrologian is more popular than Dark Knight, as weird as that sounds. Unless that poll is not a representative sample (and at 5000 votes that is extremely unlikely), healers will still be considerably more common than tanks, though Machinist's lack of popularity may help balance things out a bit.

Wait, wait, the Machinist ISN'T popular? Maybe it's just Balmung, but I've been hearing plenty of people that want to switch their main over to Machinist as soon as it drops. Heck, there are plenty of folks RPing people who use guns already.

It... might be the whole "god I know a new DPS will be super popular so I'll run a healer because it's easier to heal than to tank!"

Gegenji · **02-18-2015, 12:08 PM**

(02-18-2015, 12:06 PM)Kage Wrote:
(02-18-2015, 11:55 AM)Gegenji Wrote:
(02-17-2015, 11:41 AM)Zyrusticae Wrote: Btw, Astrologian is more popular than Dark Knight, as weird as that sounds. Unless that poll is not a representative sample (and at 5000 votes that is extremely unlikely), healers will still be considerably more common than tanks, though Machinist's lack of popularity may help balance things out a bit.

Wait, wait, the Machinist ISN'T popular? Maybe it's just Balmung, but I've been hearing plenty of people that want to switch their main over to Machinist as soon as it drops. Heck, there are plenty of folks RPing people who use guns already.
It... might be the whole "god I know a new DPS will be super popular so I'll run a healer because it's easier to heal than to tank!"

Ah, still suffering from Post-Ninja Syndrome. That makes sense. I know I certainly planned to and did level PLD and WAR both to 50 on Gogon on the back of a thousand Ninjas.

Kage · **02-18-2015, 12:11 PM**

(02-18-2015, 12:08 PM)Gegenji Wrote:
(02-18-2015, 12:06 PM)Kage Wrote:
(02-18-2015, 11:55 AM)Gegenji Wrote:
(02-17-2015, 11:41 AM)Zyrusticae Wrote: Btw, Astrologian is more popular than Dark Knight, as weird as that sounds. Unless that poll is not a representative sample (and at 5000 votes that is extremely unlikely), healers will still be considerably more common than tanks, though Machinist's lack of popularity may help balance things out a bit.

Wait, wait, the Machinist ISN'T popular? Maybe it's just Balmung, but I've been hearing plenty of people that want to switch their main over to Machinist as soon as it drops. Heck, there are plenty of folks RPing people who use guns already.
It... might be the whole "god I know a new DPS will be super popular so I'll run a healer because it's easier to heal than to tank!"

Ah, still suffering from Post-Ninja Syndrome. That makes sense. I know I certainly planned to and did level PLD and WAR both to 50 on Gogon on the back of a thousand Ninjas.

I ran out of WAR and WHM really fast >.>; leaving me to level melee in the wake of all da ninjas. /cry The brief moment I had to level BRD was when I knew what melee queues were like when BRD/BLM leveling queues were bad. Now it's melee. 30 min queues again. I can't read trends >.>;

Warren Castille · **02-18-2015, 02:04 PM**

To continue mucking up the tank/nottank argument:

People tend to play ROLES, not CLASSES. Making Samurai a tank will not add to the pool of people playing tanks: It will certainly have people level to the level cap on it, and for a brief period of time, low level roulette will have more tanks in it, but ultimately, people do not want the responsibility of playing a tank in an MMO. Similar to healers not knowing what they're doing and being afraid of looking bad, the social pressure of being the first in line to wipe your entire group forces people away from playing the class.

People might fall in love with Samurai and play it in fates, and dungeons, but it will not make a meaningful number of people moving from DPS to Tank as their primary role.

Gegenji · **02-18-2015, 02:13 PM**

(02-18-2015, 02:04 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: People tend to play ROLES, not CLASSES.

Right. We've seen that on a couple occasions here already, with folks actively being worried about going into the endgame dungeons due to not wanting to screw the run up. It takes a bit of work to try and overcome that feeling, and it still might not be completely vanquished. I've been kinda tempted to try the EX Primals, for example, yet I'm still worried about messing something up even with an i121 SCH and an i124 PLD.

Zyrusticae · **02-18-2015, 03:21 PM**

There is some leeway in that given all the places where bad DPS can and will wipe the whole party. This is especially true in any situation where DPS checks are a thing (though any outside of Coil or Odin are generally too easy to succeed at, and they did end up nerfing AK's DPS check for a reason).

At any rate, I guess I'm an exception here then, because I play classes and not roles. I'm just at home playing BRD as I am playing DRG as I am playing WAR, though I did get bored of WAR after playing nothing but it for several months straight, which is why I want another tank class that is actually interesting to me. You're really, really spoiled for choice with DPS classes but even after DRK is released you'll have three tank class versus three healing classes versus seven DPS classes, which is just a weird place to be.

If I am allowed to be completely selfish here, I just want a stylistically cool katana-wielding tank class that I can play for no other reason than that is a class that I would play ALL THE TIME and I don't want to deal with DPS queues. The role is otherwise irrelevant to me. I will likely play SAM even if it ends up a DPS class, but I will be moaning about missed opportunities all the while.

Kage · **02-18-2015, 03:27 PM**

If I remember correctly Yoshi-P mentioned some time ago that he envisioned a Samurai job, if they would have one which they currently don't, as a DD

Gegenji · **02-18-2015, 03:29 PM**

Oh, I think there's plenty of folks who play the classes for the classes. If not for the base mechanics of that class, then possibly for the fluff. The latter is doubly so in an RP server like Balmung, though I have seen cases where the character is one class IC and the player uses another OOCly as their "main."

Heck, I would go so far to say I would totally make Chachan a SAM if such a thing dropped. While I'd still say that IC he was a Paladin (since at that point I'd HOPE he had finished his Trials and been properly knighted), I always like to think that a bit of Doman style has crept into how he fights (to the point that I imagine his sword toss more like the Fuma Shuriken than what's shown). As such, a oriental-style swordsman would probably fit him better.

Stuff like that just goes... beyond the basic "tank/healer/DPS" angle, but I think that's a given considering. And then there's the people playing things that have no class at all to go with them.

... If they do include a Samurai, though, I'm hoping they have a Gil Toss style attack (their "ranged" attack a la the Shield Toss/Tomahawk/Throwing Knives?). I still fondly remember Zeninage from FF5.

Warren Castille · **02-18-2015, 03:30 PM**

"Can" is not "will" though. A DPS not carrying their salt MIGHT wipe a group if they aren't prepared to pick up the slack. A tank not knowing what to do, when, and how, WILL wipe a group (and then usually get chewed right the hell out, and that is what scares people away the most). DPS checks being failed means that SOMEONE is to blame, and without third party tools it's not possible to determine where that hole is. A tank not being quick enough to scoop up adds, or reposition, or stands in fire... Well, the blame is immediately obvious.

Joe Average isn't comfortable with that sort of spotlight on them, and weeb weapons and armor won't make them more inclined to take the mantle.

Inessa Hara · **02-18-2015, 03:50 PM**

(02-16-2015, 11:50 PM)Chris Ganale Wrote: It was in one of the live letters. He said that SAM felt more a dps than a tank to him. It was a while ago and my girlfriend follows those more closely than I do.

I would have to agree with this. The FF representation of Samurai aside, they historically wore iron/wooden armor and the iron was actually very thin so really Samurai wore light armor and the Katana is not a very defensive weapon at all. Rather, the Samurai combative style was usually to throw yourself at an enemy and hope you died taking as many of them with you as possible, so it would make sense Samurai would be a DPS from a historical and ideological standpoint.

Erik Mynhier · **02-18-2015, 03:57 PM**

In an effort to refocus this topic to the question at hand I ask again, what do you feel will be added in the future? What sort of QoL items do you see being added, or what classes seem like a no brainer and why?

Though I have to admit this discussion of the Samurai is very interesting.

Gegenji · **02-18-2015, 04:00 PM**

I'm hoping at some point they do something similar to what WoW started doing as the level cap went higher - increase the low-level experience to make leveling a bit easier. I don't think they'll do it with Heavensward since it's just tend more levels... but I'd hope they do with any further expansions.

EDIT: Or, at the very least, perhaps another head item that increases EXP gain to a higher level. Helm of Light was to 10, Friend Feather was to 25. Maybe there'll be another that goes all the way up to 30/35? In fact, that could be what the Cecil Helm might be, since the Light helm was what you got for the original Collector's Edition.

Warren Castille · **02-18-2015, 04:02 PM**

Safe to bet on "classic" FF jobs returning. Glaringly, we're missing Red Mage. Anything else is probably an equal shot at the "outlying" jobs: Dancer, Beastmaster, Mime... Those sorts of things are in the games, but they're far less iconic.

Then again, we're going to have 4 jobs added as of 3.0's release and only 2 (and a half, counting rogue) are "classic" jobs. We might see more original classes to contrast the, er, original classes.

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