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Warren Castille · **04-08-2015, 10:16 AM**

(04-08-2015, 10:13 AM)Cynel1 Wrote: well i see Dark knight as a Corrupted Paladin it would be Tempting for a Paladin to Fall into Darkness AKA do a Reverse Cecil.

It doesn't matter how you see it, it only matters who SE presents the class in the context of the game. Paladins in XIV aren't holy, and they're already plenty corruptible.

Cynel1 · **04-08-2015, 10:32 AM**

(04-08-2015, 10:16 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(04-08-2015, 10:13 AM)Cynel1 Wrote: well i see Dark knight as a Corrupted Paladin it would be Tempting for a Paladin to Fall into Darkness AKA do a Reverse Cecil.

It doesn't matter how you see it, it only matters who SE presents the class in the context of the game. Paladins in XIV aren't holy, and they're already plenty corruptible

Â now that you mention it the Japanese Version of XIV Paladin are named Knight.

Warren Castille · **04-08-2015, 10:39 AM**

(04-08-2015, 10:32 AM)Cynel1 Wrote:
(04-08-2015, 10:16 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(04-08-2015, 10:13 AM)Cynel1 Wrote: well i see Dark knight as a Corrupted Paladin it would be Tempting for a Paladin to Fall into Darkness AKA do a Reverse Cecil.

It doesn't matter how you see it, it only matters who SE presents the class in the context of the game. Paladins in XIV aren't holy, and they're already plenty corruptible
Â now that you mention it the Japanese Version of XIV Paladin are named Knight.

Yep. They completely scrubbed out the last sense of "holiness" from the class when they took away Holy Succor.

Gegenji · **04-08-2015, 10:40 AM**

(04-08-2015, 10:16 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(04-08-2015, 10:13 AM)Cynel1 Wrote: well i see Dark knight as a Corrupted Paladin it would be Tempting for a Paladin to Fall into Darkness AKA do a Reverse Cecil.

It doesn't matter how you see it, it only matters who SE presents the class in the context of the game. Paladins in XIV aren't holy, and they're already plenty corruptible.

Well, that's if you are running the Dark Knight as a Dark Knight as presented in the game. You could certainly run a Paladin that is "corrupted" and still uses the Paladin skillset and whatnot - there's nothing like the DnD Paladin-style vow-to-the-gods mechanic that strips you of your abilities if you step awry, after all. Conversely, you could have a Paladin who takes up whatever darky-dark-darkness path the Dark Knight's method provides for whatever nefarious purposes while still claiming to be a Paladin. Then you technically have a "Corrupted" Paladin despite mechanically being a Dark Knight.

It's all really in how you spin it, and how those you RP regularly with react to it.

Warren Castille · **04-08-2015, 10:50 AM**

(04-08-2015, 10:40 AM)Gegenji Wrote:
(04-08-2015, 10:16 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(04-08-2015, 10:13 AM)Cynel1 Wrote: well i see Dark knight as a Corrupted Paladin it would be Tempting for a Paladin to Fall into Darkness AKA do a Reverse Cecil.

It doesn't matter how you see it, it only matters who SE presents the class in the context of the game. Paladins in XIV aren't holy, and they're already plenty corruptible.

Well, that's if you are running the Dark Knight as a Dark Knight as presented in the game. You could certainly run a Paladin that is "corrupted" and still uses the Paladin skillset and whatnot - there's nothing like the DnD Paladin-style vow-to-the-gods mechanic that strips you of your abilities if you step awry, after all. Conversely, you could have a Paladin who takes up whatever darky-dark-darkness path the Dark Knight's method provides for whatever nefarious purposes while still claiming to be a Paladin. Then you technically have a "Corrupted" Paladin despite mechanically being a Dark Knight.

It's all really in how you spin it, and how those you RP regularly with react to it.

Hm, I should backpedal clarify that I'm taking on the "anti-paladin" concept that always seem the link these two jobs. Traditionally, PLD and DRK wear the same types of gear, do the same types of damage and one channels white magic while the other channels dark magic.

That doesn't really work in XIV, though, because paladins aren't holy knights here. They're just knights. Being a fallen knight is an angle, sure, but there's no "falling" away from the light in this case. Sultansworn are guards with a unique sprite, and Free Paladins are trained in a specific method of combat. If you turn away from that, you're not really... evil? You just don't use that style/method/job anymore.

Hm, I guess what I mean is that ANYONE can "fall" and embrace Dark Knight. There's nothing inherently anti-paladin about it.

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Gegenji · **04-08-2015, 11:05 AM**

(04-08-2015, 10:50 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: Hm, I should backpedal clarify that I'm taking on the "anti-paladin" concept that always seem the link these two jobs. Traditionally, PLD and DRK wear the same types of gear, do the same types of damage and one channels white magic while the other channels dark magic.

Ah, yes. Lore-wise, the two are not polar opposites of each other (or a "dark" version... again, like the Antipaladin class in DnD which was basically a Paladin for the evil deities), but really... have they ever really been? Bear with me on this one, I may get diatribe-y.

Dark Knights, classically (in a Final Fantasy sense, of course), didn't channel "dark magic" at all from what I can tell. They used their own life energy to bolster their attacks, and this self-inflicted pain was mirrored in the fact that their armor is literally bolted to them. If there's any duality between the two classes, it's "inflicting pain on one's self in order to harm others" against "healing the pain of self and others." That, in my opinion, was basically what Cecil was dealing with in FFIV with his conversion - you can't fight suffering/pain with more suffering/pain, you need to rise above it to truly break the cycle and he just couldn't do that with the skill set he had.

And that's basically what he did. He helped mend rather than break. And it was that - and the strength of the friends he made along the way - that allowed him to use the Crystal to reveal the big bad's true form and then pound him into submission. Which, I suppose goes against the whole healing the pain thing in that guy's case, but it's Final Fantasy and you always have to beat up the boss at the end. ANYWAY.

If you want "swordsmen who use Black Magic," you actually would need to look at Red Mage and, for those who remember FFV, the Mystic Knight. Red Mage, obviously, is your jack-of-all-trades that can do a little of everything but none of it exceptionally well - heals a little, casts some attack magic, smacks things with a sword and wears light armor. The Mystic Knight - also known as the Spellblade - channeled the Black Magics into their weapon to give it elemental properties and couldn't actually cast the spells directly at enemies (unless you set !Black as one of the character's skills!). Oddly enough, though, FFXI's Red Mage more or less inherited this trick as well with the En- spells.

From how I'm seeing things, this is sort of continuing here. The Paladin is still, at its base, what its always been - a guardian class with some healing ability, the whole "holy" aspect just comes from the fact that they protect and heal. There's nothing inherently divine about them - doubly so since healing is done using the elements (or one's personal aether) in Eorzea. Dark Knight, from what we've heard so far, is again using Darkness to perform its abilities... but it's being tweaked some from the whole "harming self to bolster power" aspect. Which, personally, I thought would've made for an interesting tanking mechanic (burn HP for abilities - your HP is suddenly a resource you have to manage even more than before!), but I can understand why they didn't go with it.

I'm reserving my overall opinion on how it turns out until after we actually see DRK in action.

Warren Castille · **04-08-2015, 11:15 AM**

Enh, you got me. I tended to not use DRK so I glanced over their skillset and filled in what I know from XI. Point: Lalafell!

Still, their philosophy as an opposite to paladin has sort of always been there: DRK hurts itself to damage others. Paladin hurts himself to protect others (i.e., Cover). It'll be interesting to see how DRK plays out lore-wise. I need to know where the darkness powers come into play.

Seriphyn · **04-08-2015, 12:22 PM**

I feel like DRK lorewise is going to be inherently more powerful than other jobs (not talking mechanically). Paladins are just really good sword-and-boarders of a particular style, and Warriors have this inner power.Â

But Dark Knights not only have this huge greatsword, but have an external power and can throw around dark magic at everything etc.

Dogberry · **04-08-2015, 12:37 PM**

I think it's a little too early to make that kind of judgement given the actual amount of information we have (like... one sentence?) on what they'll be like.

Warren Castille · **04-08-2015, 12:38 PM**

For all we know we're headed to another super special chosen one storyline like WHM or DRG and that's the explanation for why they have mastery over two spheres.

Melkire · **04-08-2015, 12:38 PM**

(04-08-2015, 12:22 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: I feel like DRK lorewise is going to be inherently more powerful than other jobs (not talking mechanically). Paladins are just really good sword-and-boarders of a particular style, and Warriors have this inner power.Â

But Dark Knights not only have this huge greatsword, but have an external power and can throw around dark magic at everything etc.

At some cost.

That's always been DRK's theme. At some cost.

Dogberry · **04-08-2015, 12:40 PM**

(04-08-2015, 12:38 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: For all we know we're headed to another super special chosen one storyline like WHM or DRG and that's the explanation for why they have mastery over two spheres.

If I'm going to be the Chosen One, I want a face on my tongue.

cuideag · **04-08-2015, 12:43 PM**

(04-08-2015, 12:38 PM)Melkire Wrote:
(04-08-2015, 12:22 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: I feel like DRK lorewise is going to be inherently more powerful than other jobs (not talking mechanically). Paladins are just really good sword-and-boarders of a particular style, and Warriors have this inner power.Â

But Dark Knights not only have this huge greatsword, but have an external power and can throw around dark magic at everything etc.

At some cost.

That's always been DRK's theme. At some cost.

My favorite words. Gosh dang it, I wonder if I will have to level this. Sad

Gegenji · **04-08-2015, 12:50 PM**

(04-08-2015, 11:15 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: Enh, you got me. I tended to not use DRK so I glanced over their skillset and filled in what I know from XI. Point: Lalafell!

Still, their philosophy as an opposite to paladin has sort of always been there: DRK hurts itself to damage others. Paladin hurts himself to protect others (i.e., Cover). It'll be interesting to see how DRK plays out lore-wise. I need to know where the darkness powers come into play.

Well, in FFXI, they COULD use some low-level Black Magic... but it's the only case in which they do. In fact, the Magic Knight in FFIII (renamed Dark Knight in the later re-release) could actually cast White Magic. I didn't actually know that bit until I looked at the wiki. They've also been the status effect guys in a game or two. Quite a wide spread of minor additional traits, I must say.

Still, the overarching theme to them (and FFXI still had this to a degree) was "sacrifice HP to do things." Said "things" include increased attack, increased defense, and being able to attack all enemies at once. Melkire really nails it with his elegantly succinct "at some cost" description that he posted while I was typing this up. Laugh

They are also known for usually either having the equipment for, or abilities that, drain HP/MP from enemies (the Blood equipment, Gaff Gafgarion's Dark and Night Sword attacks in FFT), which I'm honestly curious whether or not they'll get in FFXIV. If they're not paying their HP for stuff, it would still certainly be something nice to have but not nearly as required with Bloodbath and Mercy Stroke already in the game. Perhaps something for MP, given they'll apparently be more MP focused than the other two tanks? I would assume they'd need something greater than a Riot Blade analogue.

All the talk of darkness shrouds on enemies and such, though, AGAIN reminds me of DnD. There was an assassin class in... 3e/4e, I believe? Anyway, they could put shroud stacks on enemies and could "remove" them in order to boost their damage. I vaguely remember something about the shrouds also causing debuffs on the enemy? I'll have to re-read what has been provided thus far before I can make any substantial assumptions on how the mechanic might work.

But that really is just all mechanic stuff though, and not so much lore. Have even less on that than we do the mechanics, so it's definitely a "wait and see" situation here.

I'd have to refute them being "more powerful" than the other jobs, though. Because ALL the Jobs are forgotten or nearly-forgotten ancient arts (save Paladin and Dragoon) that are also exceedingly powerful. As powerful as DRK might be, lore-wise, you're also dealing with Shantotto's Black Magic, the Allagan's binding of primal essences to you will, and taking the might of dragons for one's own, to name a few. Not to mention that, while tapping into one's chakra or Inner Beast might not sound as impressive, but they're still equally as powerful given what people can do with it. Even the other new Jobs being brought to table already has one that, as has already been spoiled, can STOP TIME with their limit break - that's pretty powerful.

Aaron · **04-08-2015, 01:01 PM**

I assume (but not holding my tongue) Dark Knight might be race locked.

From the pictures we've seen only Au Ra seem to be in the DRK armor with the relic, while MCH & AST have hyur and Miq in them.

Unless people count the Miq with the Burtang and Cloud outfit as a DRK, in which then I'd be like whatever I guess.

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Regarding Dark Knight...

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