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mongi291 · **04-16-2015, 11:58 AM**

Being a certain class wielding a certain type of weapon is easy because, unlike jobs, there are multiple places where you could have learned.
I mean, if you are using powerful Sultansworn abilities, you are a Paladin and you must have some sort of connection to Ul'dah and the Sultansworn. If you're using the power of your inner beast, you are a Warrior and you must have least met another Warrior who taught you those techniques.
But there aren't restrictions for classes. There are fighters of every kind using weapons of every kind coming from places of every kind. We're talking about Dragoon and Lancers, so let's use Lancers as an example.
The Lancers' Guild is in Gridania, sure. But we have not only Gridanian Lancers, but Ishgardian Dragoons, Ala Mhigan Lancers, Garlean Lancers (called Eques), and even beastmen Lancers: we see Ixali, Amalj'aa, Kobold and Sahagin Lancers. Maybe even Sylphs too, but I'm not too sure about them.

Swashbuckler · **04-16-2015, 12:01 PM**

(04-16-2015, 10:18 AM)Gegenji Wrote: As has been mentioned, technically none of the races are "native" to Eorzea at all. So none of them are natively Ishgardian. Elezen and Hyur just happen to be the majority. Which makes your point I kinda snipped out for length quite relevant - they are the majority, not the sole occupants of Ishgard. They may hold the highest positions and see themselves as "true" Ishgardians, that doesn't mean there couldn't be some low-class Roegadyn or Miqo'te family in there somewhere struggling to survive the rigors of the caste-based society and racial tensions.

I could be wrong but, doesn't it state somewhere that says Elezen are actually the only race native to Eorzea?

Gegenji · **04-16-2015, 12:05 PM**

(04-15-2015, 10:08 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: Just being nitpicky. Elezen are also not native to Eorzea. They immigrated here first from the north (Ilsabard) and Roegadyn immigrated here from the North Sea Isles. Mankind is not native to Eorzea. Only gods and beasts lived here in the "Time of the Twelve." When Mankind first arrived in Eorzea, it started the "Age of Man" aka the 1st Astral Era.

I also remember Sounsyy mentioning that the Elezen then proclaimed that they were the first Race of Man in Eorzea despite others having been there first, but I can't remember where. It's basically just Elezen Superiority Complex striking again.

Aya · **04-16-2015, 12:06 PM**

(04-16-2015, 12:01 PM)Cedric Wrote: I could be wrong but, doesn't it state somewhere that says Elezen are actually the only race native to Eorzea?

I believe that is how they view themselves, since they were the first men to arrive Smile

(and you know how Elezen are!)

Dasair · **04-16-2015, 12:46 PM**

(04-16-2015, 12:01 PM)Cedric Wrote:
(04-16-2015, 10:18 AM)Gegenji Wrote: As has been mentioned, technically none of the races are "native" to Eorzea at all. So none of them are natively Ishgardian. Elezen and Hyur just happen to be the majority. Which makes your point I kinda snipped out for length quite relevant - they are the majority, not the sole occupants of Ishgard. They may hold the highest positions and see themselves as "true" Ishgardians, that doesn't mean there couldn't be some low-class Roegadyn or Miqo'te family in there somewhere struggling to survive the rigors of the caste-based society and racial tensions.

I could be wrong but, doesn't it state somewhere that says Elezen are actually the only race native to Eorzea?

Quote:"The Elezen once claimed sole dominion over Eorzea, their presence predating that of the other races, and, as such, developed a heightened sense of honor and pride."

That is the quote from Here.

Quote:"They are the race that has lived in Eorzea the longest and co-exist peacefully with the other races."

That is a quote from Here.

So.. not necessarily native, they've just been there the longest duration. At least that's what you might be thinking of, though I could be wrong.

V'aleera · **04-16-2015, 02:17 PM**

(04-16-2015, 11:21 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: I agree. I'm just of the opinion that if they're that racist restricted on who can be a lowly Temple Guard, then they're more likely to be more racist on who is allowed to be one of the legendary, widely-known icons of Ishgard as a nation.

I think you're attributing a fair bit more celebrity to dragoons than the lore actually displays them having. As far as I can tell, Ishgard is more famous for its chocobos than its dragoons.

What's more, I actually get the impression that the Temple Knights are the more prestigious of the two groups. Where the dragoons are a highly specialized and skilled military division, the Temple Knights appear to be Sultansworn equivalents in a nation where the singular high authority (the Archbishop) wields absolute power (rather than the marginalized power of the Sultana).

Seriphyn · **04-16-2015, 03:11 PM**

I...thirteen pages?

[Image: i-dont-know-what-i-expected-gif.gif]

I'm such an instigating little bitch, good Lord.

Warren Castille · **04-16-2015, 03:13 PM**

(04-16-2015, 02:17 PM)Intaki Wrote:
(04-16-2015, 11:21 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: I agree. I'm just of the opinion that if they're that racist restricted on who can be a lowly Temple Guard, then they're more likely to be more racist on who is allowed to be one of the legendary, widely-known icons of Ishgard as a nation.
I think you're attributing a fair bit more celebrity to dragoons than the lore actually displays them having. As far as I can tell, Ishgard is more famous for its chocobos than its dragoons.

What's more, I actually get the impression that the Temple Knights are the more prestigious of the two groups. Where the dragoons are a highly specialized and skilled military division, the Temple Knights appear to be Sultansworn equivalents in a nation where the singular high authority (the Archbishop) wields absolute power (rather than the marginalized power of the Sultana).

Uh...?

Game Description Wrote:â€œOf all the things that are symbolic of the nation of Ishgard, few are more recognized than the dragoon. Born amidst the timeless conflict between men and dragons, these lance-wielding knights have developed an aerial style of combat, that they might better pierce the scaled hides of their mortal foes.
Taking to the firmament as though it were an extension of the land, they descend upon the enemy with every onze of their bodies behind the blow. It is this penetrative power that characterizes the dragoon.â€
â€”Game Description

It says as much right here.

V'aleera · **04-16-2015, 03:43 PM**

That does not contradict my assertion. I never said dragoons weren't widely known, I simply said that I believed, based on the lore present in the game, that you are over-blowing their importance in Ishgardian society while undervaluing the extremely prestigious role of the Temple Knights.

Gegenji · **04-16-2015, 03:48 PM**

(04-16-2015, 03:43 PM)Intaki Wrote: That does not contradict my assertion. I never said dragoons weren't widely known, I simply said that I believed, based on the lore present in the game, that you are over-blowing their importance in Ishgardian society while undervaluing the extremely prestigious role of the Temple Knights.

Maybe they're both equally important.

The Temple Knights are a direct guardian of the Holy See, a prestigious position indeed! On the other you have the Dragoons, Ishgard's best line of defense in dealing with the Dravarian threat, a sign of Ishgardian might in the face of the worst adversity. Both are important in their own ways - one protects the leader of their people, the other protects the people themselves from threats.

... Kinda like the Sultansworn and Free Paladins, oddly enough. Maybe all the Temple Knights are Dragoons in ceremonial armor instead of the trademark 'goonsuit! Laugh

Melkire · **04-16-2015, 03:52 PM**

I'd actually disagree. Temple Knights seem more equivalent to Brass Blades or Immortal Flames, in a way. They get mentioned all the time and as far as the Main Story Quests go, they are basically cannon fodder.

V'aleera · **04-16-2015, 03:56 PM**

(04-16-2015, 03:52 PM)Melkire Wrote: I'd actually disagree. Temple Knights seem more equivalent to Brass Blades or Immortal Flames, in a way. They get mentioned all the time and as far as the Main Story Quests go, they are basically cannon fodder.

In Whitebrim there is an actual cannon fodder knight you meet in the course of the MSQ. He asks you to go find the corpse of the big dragon he killed; when you do, he is utterly elated and believes that he'll be receiving a highly coveted promotion to the Temple Knights befitting a noble like himself.

In another quest, you're asked to venture into the lair of the behemoth and recover the corpses of a bunch of scrubby dragoons who royally screwed up and got wiped.

I will try and find these to link here.

Melkire · **04-16-2015, 04:00 PM**

(04-16-2015, 03:56 PM)Intaki Wrote:
(04-16-2015, 03:52 PM)Melkire Wrote: I'd actually disagree. Temple Knights seem more equivalent to Brass Blades or Immortal Flames, in a way. They get mentioned all the time and as far as the Main Story Quests go, they are basically cannon fodder.
In Whitebrim there is an actual cannon fodder knight you meet in the course of the MSQ. He asks you to go find the corpse of the big dragon he killed; when you do, he is utterly elated and believes that he'll be receiving a highly coveted promotion to the Temple Knights befitting a noble like himself.

In another quest, you're asked to venture into the lair of the behemoth and recover the corpses of a bunch of scrubby dragoons who royally screwed up and got wiped.

I will try and find these to link here.

Thank you, I'd like to read those. I vaguely recall the quests in question.

My comment sprang up more from recent quests featuring Ser Aymeric. He refers to the Temple Knights as often and as frequently as Raubahn referred to the Immortal Flames, and in much the same way/manner. Unless I'm misunderstanding the Temple Knight designation, I think the comparison stands. The Temple Knights are the lancers in those hauberks with the blue vambraces, are they not? A few of them were betrayed and slaughtered by Iceheart's faction prior to Steps of Faith?

V'aleera · **04-16-2015, 04:02 PM**

They are the blue people, yes. Though I think they run the whole gamut of which weapons they use. Some spears, some sword and board, and I think even one used a conjury wand.

Melkire · **04-16-2015, 04:03 PM**

(04-16-2015, 04:02 PM)Intaki Wrote: They are the blue people, yes. Though I think they run the whole gamut of which weapons they use. Some spears, some sword and board, and I think even one used a conjury wand.

Yeah, they do, I just figured "lancer" was the easier reference, given their seeming predisposition towards polearms.

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Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations

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