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Aduu Avagnar · **04-21-2015, 08:03 AM**

So, by now we all know the tale of Edda, who went a little bit cray cray and did many a ritual to try and bring her late boyfriend back from the dead. This used a lot of blood, spelling his name lots of times on the floor.

The description of the Demon Wall card implies that Blood isn't simply used for Void Magic but that there is a type of magic that simply uses blood as it's focus:

Quote:Demon Wall:
These frightful guardians are the creations of ancient spellcraft, given life when a chosen wall was inscribed with an arcane pattern of blood. Though their masters have long since perished, these sentinels of demonic visage continue to protect the crumbling ruins to which they are bound - to the surprise and horror of many an unsuspecting adventurer.

So, would we say that its Void Magic, Arcanima of a sorts or simply a different style of magic all together?

Khadan · **04-21-2015, 01:09 PM**

Hmm, without going too far down that rabbit hole I might posit that since it's a 'demon' wall and demons seem to be the purview of void magic that a demon wall is just more void magic since it follows what we know of void magic thus far.

Though you might be able to make an argument for Arcanistry mixed with alchemy or some such?Â

Though I think you bring up some interesting notions: Just how powerful is blood as a magical focus? Is it due to the nature of sacrifice? The emotions of pain and/or fear? Does it require the actual death of the bleeder for the same aforementioned pain/fear? Do Eorzeans as aether-rich beings thus make their blood even more substantial? and so on and so forth =P

Warren Castille · **04-21-2015, 01:13 PM**

Personal headcanon time, discretion and a saltshaker advised:

We've established that the Voidsent are drawn to corpses and death - There was another thread that covered this pretty well and there's dialogue from 1.0 that may or may not be retconned that infers that not taking proper care of a dead body can cause it to rise as a Revenant.

I don't think "blood magic" or "void magic" are things. I do think, though, that the Voidsent on the Other Side can use blood to find a way through the barrier into our realm. In the case of demon wall, it's less that a blood ritual manifests the wall into a monster and more than a voidsent is able to crawl through into our world thanks to the nature of blood. Dealing with Voidsent is basically providing them a foothold to step into our dimension; Edda wasn't raising Avere, but she was doing a great job of letting a proto-ahriman take over what was left of his head. The similarity is too much to be coincidence (for my money, anyway).

Sounsyy · **04-21-2015, 01:22 PM**

Well, considering the original 1.0 incarnation of Thaumaturgy used blood rites and self-sacrifice to cast spells, I had always assumed these blood rites were tied to ancient Thaumaturgy, like that of the first Magi in the early Fifth Astral Era, pre-Shatotto. So not necessarily "Void Magic" but just ancient Thaumaturgy, that was later used to unlock the Void during the War of the Magi using Black Magic rituals.

As for why Demon Walls are in Amdapor, the city of White Mages, remember that White Magic wasn't gifted to Mankind until after the discovery of Black Magic, but that the Magi of Amdapor existed long before that discovery was made. So if they were Magi, and Conjury wouldn't exist for another 2,000 years, what were they Magi of? Likely also Thaumaturgy. Just instead of taking this ancient form of Thaumaturgy down the route of Black Magic, they focused more on Thaumaturgy's healing properties over its destructive properties like the Black Mages ended up focusing on.

This is in keeping with early 1.0 THM being more than a respectable healer and having HP/MP costs with all of its spells, and even a spell called Blood Rite.

If you also wanna look really deep into it, Thaumaturgical arms use staves often crafted from bone or aetherially conducting metals such as silver or gold. But it's said that bone channels particularly well. This sounds very much like it'd be something from ancient times. Bones and Blood to cast magic instead of silver and gemstones like we use today.

Further down this train of thought, consider how the ancient peoples of Eorzea believed in blood letting and chigoe sucking to release bad humors or aether from the body. (Until they later discovered chigoes carried diseases of their own - like Blight.) What if... way way at the start of the 5th Astral Era when Thaumaturgy was first being discovered and explored, the early Magi weren't sure what "aether" was? What if, in an effort to tap into their inner reserves of aether to cast spells, they externally sacrificed blood or blood let, to invoke magic?

The principles of Thaumaturgy have always been limited by one's own aether, just as one's blood and bones are limited as well. Perhaps early magi used their own blood and the bones of another or recently deceased to make their spells. This would require incredibly more prep-work, resulting in these elaborate glyphs and rites drawn in blood that are referenced in lore.

Just a thought/theory.

But still would say these ancient "blood magic" practices often referred to in lore are actually just the early incarnations of Thaumaturgy.

Khadan · **04-21-2015, 01:22 PM**

(04-21-2015, 01:13 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Personal headcanon time, discretion and a saltshaker advised:

We've established that the Voidsent are drawn to corpses and death - There was another thread that covered this pretty well and there's dialogue from 1.0 that may or may not be retconned that infers that not taking proper care of a dead body can cause it to rise as a Revenant.

I don't think "blood magic" or "void magic" are things. I do think, though, that the Voidsent on the Other Side can use blood to find a way through the barrier into our realm. In the case of demon wall, it's less that a blood ritual manifests the wall into a monster and more than a voidsent is able to crawl through into our world thanks to the nature of blood. Dealing with Voidsent is basically providing them a foothold to step into our dimension; Edda wasn't raising Avere, but she was doing a great job of letting a proto-ahriman take over what was left of his head. The similarity is too much to be coincidence (for my money, anyway).

Definitely good points.

In the 'usual' fantasy setting when dealing with 'demons', I find that the common theme seems to be doing things you, as the reader, find distasteful or abhorrent. I often speculate when writing things involving 'demons' whether for FF14 or just other fictional settings that I'm working on, if it isn't really the blood or the death sacrifices but rather the act of doing something 'wrong'; compromising yourself or your morals or at least the morals of the society at large which, if found out, would surely result in your being made a pariah at best or killed at worst. The demonic entity may actually require you to compromise yourself so that they in turn can compromise you for their own gains etc etc. But that's headcanon'y stuff as well though I enjoy the speculation into such things 'just for fun'. =P

cuideag · **04-21-2015, 01:38 PM**

IIRC one of the first if not the first BLM quest has you going out to summon voidsent with voidsent blood or whatev, too, so I definitely imagine using blood (be it voidsent or otherwise) still has a part in THM/BLM junk.

My personal headcanon has that extended out to arcanistry even, though I am sure officially the Arcanist's Guild would not be OK with people making up schematics with anything vile like blood or whatev. surely, someone's done it though.

Hammersmith · **04-21-2015, 01:43 PM**

(04-21-2015, 01:38 PM)cuideag Wrote: IIRC one of the first if not the first BLM quest has you going out to summon voidsent with voidsent blood or whatev, too, so I definitely imagine using blood (be it voidsent or otherwise) still has a part in THM/BLM junk.

My personal headcanon has that extended out to arcanistry even, though I am sure officially the Arcanist's Guild would not be OK with people making up schematics with anything vile like blood or whatev. surely, someone's done it though.

I'm in the boat that says Sympathetic Magic grants anything based in blood most of it's power. Â Got some of it's blood? You got some pull on it you didn't before. Â Power over it. Â Power to maybe ward, or repel, or dozens of other things.

Trick is making it bleed first, of course, but blood is a hell of a tie to have when practicing any school or tradition of magic that can affect a thing that bleeds.

Erik Mynhier · **04-21-2015, 02:25 PM**

(04-21-2015, 01:22 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Well, considering the original 1.0 incarnation of Thaumaturgy used blood rites and self-sacrifice to cast spells, I had always assumed these blood rites were tied to ancient Thaumaturgy, like that of the first Magi in the early Fifth Astral Era, pre-Shatotto. So not necessarily "Void Magic" but just ancient Thaumaturgy, that was later used to unlock the Void during the War of the Magi using Black Magic rituals.

As for why Demon Walls are in Amdapor, the city of White Mages, remember that White Magic wasn't gifted to Mankind until after the discovery of Black Magic, but that the Magi of Amdapor existed long before that discovery was made. So if they were Magi, and Conjury wouldn't exist for another 2,000 years, what were they Magi of? Likely also Thaumaturgy. Just instead of taking this ancient form of Thaumaturgy down the route of Black Magic, they focused more on Thaumaturgy's healing properties over its destructive properties like the Black Mages ended up focusing on.

This is in keeping with early 1.0 THM being more than a respectable healer and having HP/MP costs with all of its spells, and even a spell called Blood Rite.

If you also wanna look really deep into it, Thaumaturgical arms use staves often crafted from bone or aetherially conducting metals such as silver or gold. But it's said that bone channels particularly well. This sounds very much like it'd be something from ancient times. Bones and Blood to cast magic instead of silver and gemstones like we use today.

Further down this train of thought, consider how the ancient peoples of Eorzea believed in blood letting and chigoe sucking to release bad humors or aether from the body. (Until they later discovered chigoes carried diseases of their own - like Blight.) What if... way way at the start of the 5th Astral Era when Thaumaturgy was first being discovered and explored, the early Magi weren't sure what "aether" was? What if, in an effort to tap into their inner reserves of aether to cast spells, they externally sacrificed blood or blood let, to invoke magic?

The principles of Thaumaturgy have always been limited by one's own aether, just as one's blood and bones are limited as well. Perhaps early magi used their own blood and the bones of another or recently deceased to make their spells. This would require incredibly more prep-work, resulting in these elaborate glyphs and rites drawn in blood that are referenced in lore.

Just a thought/theory.

But still would say these ancient "blood magic" practices often referred to in lore are actually just the early incarnations of Thaumaturgy.

THIS IS NOT LORE! THIS IS MY OWN PERSONAL THEORY BASED ON PATTERNS IN THIS GAME THAT SHOW OTHER FINAL FANTASY GAMES!

Taking that a step further from your theory, what if this ancient Magi magic (blood magic) was discovered during the mage wars by White Mages, maybe an off shoot. Some small group looking for a way to tip the scales. So you have White Mages delving into their Black Magic roots without relinquishing their conjury. You could see such a group like that being looked on with disgust by other White Mages for taking the skills of the enemy. And the same with the Black Mages, they would see them as corrupt (by white magic) throwbacks (from magi magic). Both sides would see these magi as abominations, their robes stained red from the blood of their magics, they would be called with contempt......

Red Mages.

That I see as a set up for the magi of red, blood being the main component. That would deal with the white/black dichotomy while still providing a unique mechanic both ic/ooc for the job. Just a hunch really. With the demon wall you have demonic power (void) given life (conjury), the two magics fused into a new magic with blood. Just my thoughts.

Aduu Avagnar · **04-21-2015, 03:44 PM**

Note that the wall simply has a demonic visage. It is not, in and of itself demonic, and is a Aetheric construct

cuideag · **04-21-2015, 04:28 PM**

(04-21-2015, 01:43 PM)Hammersmith Wrote:
(04-21-2015, 01:38 PM)cuideag Wrote: IIRC one of the first if not the first BLM quest has you going out to summon voidsent with voidsent blood or whatev, too, so I definitely imagine using blood (be it voidsent or otherwise) still has a part in THM/BLM junk.

My personal headcanon has that extended out to arcanistry even, though I am sure officially the Arcanist's Guild would not be OK with people making up schematics with anything vile like blood or whatev. surely, someone's done it though.

I'm in the boat that says Sympathetic Magic grants anything based in blood most of it's power. Â Got some of it's blood? You got some pull on it you didn't before. Â Power over it. Â Power to maybe ward, or repel, or dozens of other things.

Trick is making it bleed first, of course, but blood is a hell of a tie to have when practicing any school or tradition of magic that can affect a thing that bleeds.

Yesss, yes, this! It's a theme I've wanted to explore in RP but I've never felt confident enough to actually do it. Might have to get some scheming done along these lines, though... HMMM.

Hammersmith · **04-21-2015, 04:37 PM**

(04-21-2015, 04:28 PM)cuideag Wrote:
(04-21-2015, 01:43 PM)Hammersmith Wrote:
(04-21-2015, 01:38 PM)cuideag Wrote: IIRC one of the first if not the first BLM quest has you going out to summon voidsent with voidsent blood or whatev, too, so I definitely imagine using blood (be it voidsent or otherwise) still has a part in THM/BLM junk.

My personal headcanon has that extended out to arcanistry even, though I am sure officially the Arcanist's Guild would not be OK with people making up schematics with anything vile like blood or whatev. surely, someone's done it though.

I'm in the boat that says Sympathetic Magic grants anything based in blood most of it's power. Â Got some of it's blood? You got some pull on it you didn't before. Â Power over it. Â Power to maybe ward, or repel, or dozens of other things.

Trick is making it bleed first, of course, but blood is a hell of a tie to have when practicing any school or tradition of magic that can affect a thing that bleeds.

Yesss, yes, this! It's a theme I've wanted to explore in RP but I've never felt confident enough to actually do it. Might have to get some scheming done along these lines, though... HMMM.

It's a fun concept and you can find dozens of historical sources where you didn't want a bit of "you" getting into a "magic users" hands. Â Curses and the like would move over easy to some of the Scholar's line of work, all scientificy. On the other hand you could move it over to the Thaumaturge's method of pulling at aetheric weaves and ties and schools using it as a focus. Lots of options!

You can do it!

I've got a system of magic I've plotted out that has sympathetic magic ingrained heavily into it, but I'm not well read enough on the FF magic systems yet to start slotting it in for proper loreification/co-existance with what's already there.

Val · **04-21-2015, 04:57 PM**

(04-21-2015, 04:37 PM)Hammersmith Wrote:
(04-21-2015, 04:28 PM)cuideag Wrote:
(04-21-2015, 01:43 PM)Hammersmith Wrote:
(04-21-2015, 01:38 PM)cuideag Wrote: IIRC one of the first if not the first BLM quest has you going out to summon voidsent with voidsent blood or whatev, too, so I definitely imagine using blood (be it voidsent or otherwise) still has a part in THM/BLM junk.

My personal headcanon has that extended out to arcanistry even, though I am sure officially the Arcanist's Guild would not be OK with people making up schematics with anything vile like blood or whatev. surely, someone's done it though.

I'm in the boat that says Sympathetic Magic grants anything based in blood most of it's power. Â Got some of it's blood? You got some pull on it you didn't before. Â Power over it. Â Power to maybe ward, or repel, or dozens of other things.

Trick is making it bleed first, of course, but blood is a hell of a tie to have when practicing any school or tradition of magic that can affect a thing that bleeds.

Yesss, yes, this! It's a theme I've wanted to explore in RP but I've never felt confident enough to actually do it. Might have to get some scheming done along these lines, though... HMMM.

It's a fun concept and you can find dozens of historical sources where you didn't want a bit of "you" getting into a "magic users" hands. Â Curses and the like would move over easy to some of the Scholar's line of work, all scientificy. Â On the other hand you could move it over to the Thaumaturge's method of pulling at aetheric weaves and ties and schools using it as a focus. Â Lots of options!

You can do it!

I've got a system of magic I've plotted out that has sympathetic magic ingrained heavily into it, but I'm not well read enough on the FF magic systems yet to start slotting it in for proper loreification/co-existance with what's already there.

I tend to agree with all of these concepts. Blood of an individual is an incredibly powerful thing to have. Melfice does a lot with his Mistress's blood as the catalyst to his spells. When it comes to others seeking it, he is incrediblyÂ defensive, as he is aware that having her blood is incredibly dangerous for her--and him--should someone know what they are doing.

Spethah · **04-21-2015, 04:58 PM**

Just as a little side note to the topic, in other games and universes Thaumatergy is related to as a "Blood Magic". 1.0 also shows that.

Khadan · **04-21-2015, 07:16 PM**

It is interesting that Thaumaturgy seems to be melded with what most might consider "sorcery", i.e. the calling down fire and lightning to smite your foes as one in the same while they seem to be separated in other fantasy genres. Perhaps the whole black mage/thaumaturge vs. white mage/conjurer is supposed to be seen as the whole Yin and Yang duality of destructive vs. sympathetic magics or some such.Â

Though really that begs the question: What is 'bad' magic? Final Fantasy goes through great lengths to make it clear that Aether is Aether is Aether, that it doesn't have any particular... 'intent' beyond the will and use of the person wielding it. So is magic only thaumaturgy by classification of its use or is the TYPE of magic being used what makes it thaumaturgy over just 'more magic'? Same with conjury, arcanistry, and so on.

Sounsyy · **04-21-2015, 08:01 PM**

(04-21-2015, 07:16 PM)Kayllen Wrote: So is magic only thaumaturgy by classification of its use or is the TYPE of magic being used what makes it thaumaturgy over just 'more magic'? Same with conjury, arcanistry, and so on.

Pretty much this. Aether can be used in many different forms, from Thaumaturgy to Chakra. How aether is used seems to very much be the defining characteristic of the different schools of magic throughout history. Remember that Thaumaturgy can and was quite extensively used for healing at one point in time. (It can't now only thanks to non-lore based mechanic changes.)

Thaumaturgy draws on one's own aether and channels it via blood or bone or metal into a gemstone which focuses the spell into existance. Whether the spell is one intended to harm or to heal, the process remains unchanged.

Black Magic, while based on Thaumaturgy principles, is a technique which allows the mage to draw from an external source (ie. the Lifestream, the land, a la 1.0 other people...) and use that aether to supply the spell instead of draining one's own aether.

Conjury draws aether from nature by way of a stave or wand made of organic flora, the aether is then condensed into a spell via meditation, then unleashed.

Arcanima uses personal aether also, but instead of meditating on the spell like Conjury or tracing the spell like ancient thaumaturgy might have, Arcanists use a spell book of magical glyphs. The ink in which the glyphs are drawn acts as an amplifier for the magic.

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