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Warren Castille · **04-23-2015, 04:46 PM**

(04-23-2015, 04:42 PM)Harmonixer Wrote: Even as a modder myself, I don't have much good things to say on the subject.

Really it comes down to me going 'Well, I suppose.'

I know for certain that people who want to support good work will find ways to do it. This somehow 'spoils' the way it's worked for so long. I understand the intent is good, but the execution makes sort of go:

'Eh.'

I wish everyone the very best, but as stated earlier. Pay for what you want to support and lucky for us, there are plenty of people who want to be part of the community for little reward other than the virtue of being able to even do it in the first place.

I think some people deserve praise for what they do, but the thought to do something to gain something doesn't seem to sit well in my mind.

All the best to them, truly.

While I tend to always side with the free spirits doing it for the love of their craft, consider that at least 17 well-known modders decided to take a cut. Valve's not to blame if there's a market (or specifically, a supplier) for these things.

...maybe I'm wrong, though! Maybe this is an abstract ToS pull or something that renders mods as belonging to the developer or platform on which they're distributed. I didn't look into the litigiousness of it.

In the end, though: Valve can't sell you what people won't sell them.

OttoVann · **04-23-2015, 04:51 PM**

God damn this thread is sad. So many people are outright raging because they literally feel entitled to mods for a game, something they didn't work to help create.

Don't pay for them if you don't want to, just don't act entitled about it either.

Harmonixer · **04-23-2015, 04:51 PM**

(04-23-2015, 04:46 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(04-23-2015, 04:42 PM)Harmonixer Wrote: Even as a modder myself, I don't have much good things to say on the subject.

Really it comes down to me going 'Well, I suppose.'

I know for certain that people who want to support good work will find ways to do it. This somehow 'spoils' the way it's worked for so long. I understand the intent is good, but the execution makes sort of go:

'Eh.'

I wish everyone the very best, but as stated earlier. Pay for what you want to support and lucky for us, there are plenty of people who want to be part of the community for little reward other than the virtue of being able to even do it in the first place.

I think some people deserve praise for what they do, but the thought to do something to gain something doesn't seem to sit well in my mind.

All the best to them, truly.

While I tend to always side with the free spirits doing it for the love of their craft, consider that at least 17 well-known modders decided to take a cut. Valve's not to blame if there's a market (or specifically, a supplier) for these things.

...maybe I'm wrong, though! Maybe this is an abstract ToS pull or something that renders mods as belonging to the developer or platform on which they're distributed. I didn't look into the litigiousness of it.

In the end, though: Valve can't sell you what people won't sell them.

And I don't fault them or valve for doing them, upon reflecting. There are plenty of people who don't quite feel comfortable with donating to paypals, and the like. This is a much more forward format for someone to be inspired to continue to do good work and balances out the effort required. Something like that anyway.

I think my 'fear' stems from the thought that people will think this is how it 'has' to be done. If that make any sense. It should always been a choice when. DLC is a sore subject for me, but I have strong opinions for jaded, selfish reasons.

Edit: It should be clear that I'm not flat out against it. I wouldn't change it given the chance. Just voicing a concern really.

Desu Nee · **04-23-2015, 04:54 PM**

(04-23-2015, 04:51 PM)OttoVann Wrote: God damn this thread is sad. Â So many people are outright raging because they literally feel entitled to mods for a game, something they didn't work to help create. Â

Don't pay for them if you don't want to, just don't act entitled about it either.

I'm less worried about wanting all my mods free, and more about the reflections and ripples this will bring upon the modding community to be frank. Paying for a mod should be optional, to support them, as they are result of an individual love for the game. Not an expansion pack or new skin.

Melkire · **04-23-2015, 04:55 PM**

(04-23-2015, 04:51 PM)OttoVann Wrote: God damn this thread is sad. So many people are outright raging because they literally feel entitled to mods for a game, something they didn't work to help create.

Don't pay for them if you don't want to, just don't act entitled about it either.

I invite you to take a look at Zandronum (and other, older source ports for Doom, Doom II, Heretic, Hexen, etc.) and FreeSpace 2 Source Code Project for wonderful examples and demos of what can be done and developed for a community by the community when both the tools and the end product are freely available to anyone and everyone.

There's no "entitlement" here, just sad resignation that large companies seek bigger profit margins.

Nebbs · **04-23-2015, 04:57 PM**

Is there where people can get FFXIV mods?

Desu Nee · **04-23-2015, 04:59 PM**

(04-23-2015, 04:57 PM)Nebbs Wrote: Is there where people can get FFXIV mods?

Highlander mount mod for Lalafels whenÂ Huh

OttoVann · **04-23-2015, 05:00 PM**

(04-23-2015, 04:55 PM)Melkire Wrote:
(04-23-2015, 04:51 PM)OttoVann Wrote: God damn this thread is sad. So many people are outright raging because they literally feel entitled to mods for a game, something they didn't work to help create.

Don't pay for them if you don't want to, just don't act entitled about it either.

I invite you to take a look at Zandronum (and other, older source ports for Doom, Doom II, Heretic, Hexen, etc.) and FreeSpace 2 Source Code Project for wonderful examples and demos of what can be done and developed for a community by the community when both the tools and the end product are freely available to anyone and everyone.

There's no "entitlement" here, just sad resignation that large companies seek bigger profit margins.

And I invite you to look at games like Dota2, and TeamFortress2, where cosmetics are made almost exclusively by the community and sold to the community. Almost no one here plays those games so consider the following:

Many, many artists quit their day jobs to make hats for those games. Because the monetization was there. "But modders did it in the past for free", okay. When you give people an avenue to earn money for their work put in, versus it always being free and relying on charity (which is rare, small, and hardly materializes) you can attract much more skilled people to mod for your game.

A lot of people who make cosmetics for games like Dota2 and TF2 make over six figures, easily. Anuxi is a good example. She would not have quit her day job, and she would not have made cosmetics that a lot of players fucking love without being able to have her work monetized. Thank god she was able to get paid for her work and keeps making a lot of stuff people want.

Sure, there will always be free mods, but lets be perfectly honest this thread is reflecting entitlement. Simply put. Its also ignoring the positive effects that this brings, like attracting people with real talent to mod for a game.

Times have changed, for the better.

Melkire · **04-23-2015, 05:05 PM**

I don't really buy that argument when:

A. So many great artists are floundering for work & pay.

B. So many great modders (read: programmers) work for fun rather than profit.

C. So many artists and modders go into the video game industry professionally off the backs of free modding projects such as those that I've mentioned.

D. What constitutes and qualifies as "better" is purely subjective.

Think I'll bow out of this thread at this point.

Desu Nee · **04-23-2015, 05:10 PM**

(04-23-2015, 05:00 PM)OttoVann Wrote:
(04-23-2015, 04:55 PM)Melkire Wrote:
(04-23-2015, 04:51 PM)OttoVann Wrote: God damn this thread is sad. Â So many people are outright raging because they literally feel entitled to mods for a game, something they didn't work to help create. Â

Don't pay for them if you don't want to, just don't act entitled about it either.

I invite you to take a look at Zandronum (and other, older source ports for Doom, Doom II, Heretic, Hexen, etc.) and FreeSpace 2 Source Code Project for wonderful examples and demos of what can be done and developed for a community by the community when both the tools and the end product are freely available to anyone and everyone.

There's no "entitlement" here, just sad resignation that large companies seek bigger profit margins.

And I invite you to look at games like Dota2, and TeamFortress2, where cosmetics are made almost exclusively by the community and sold to the community. Â Almost no one here plays those games so consider the following:

Many, many artists quit their day jobs to make hats for those games. Â Because the monetization was there. Â "But modders did it in the past for free", okay. Â When you give people an avenue to earn money for their work put in, versus it always being free and relying on charity (which is rare, small, and hardly materializes) you can attract much more skilled people to mod for your game. Â

A lot of people who make cosmetics for games like Dota2 and TF2 make over six figures, easily. Â Anuxi is a good example. Â She would not have quit her day job, and she would not have made cosmetics that a lot of players fucking love without being able to have her work monetized. Â Thank god she was able to get paid for her work and keeps making a lot of stuff people want.

Sure, there will always be free mods, but lets be perfectly honest this thread is reflecting entitlement. Â Simply put. Â Its also ignoring the positive effects that this brings, like attracting people with real talent to mod for a game.

Times have changed, for the better.

That's very relative, because hats and cosmetics in Dota are that. Cosmetics. Completely optional things that influence very little on your game. I'm a ex-TF2 player so I'm aware of the example very well.

But in many games, specially Skyrim, mods actually expand upon the experience, and in many cases are almost necessary, like SKSE and SkyUI. Not having them, while ignorable, becomes very hard to return to the normal, and they naturally expand and influence the game a lot. As of now, the bundle of mods on Skyrim, a game that rely a lot nowadays on mods for it's experience, is almost two times the price of the game.

OttoVann · **04-23-2015, 05:12 PM**

(04-23-2015, 05:05 PM)Melkire Wrote: I don't really buy that argument when:

A. So many great artists are floundering for work & pay.

B. So many great modders (read: programmers) work for fun rather than profit.

C. So many artists and modders go into the video game industry professionally off the backs of free modding projects such as those that I've mentioned.

D. What constitutes and qualifies as "better" is purely subjective.

Think I'll bow out of this thread at this point.

Works for Dota2, a game which is a few hundred, to thousands of times larger than Skyrim ever will be. Who here in the last ten years has heard of businesses, that employ modders, to only make mods for a game? It hasn't happened until Valve enabled people to monetize their work. Happens now in big games where money can be made. Great modders who do what they do, but can find work in an art studio making mods. I see nothing wrong with those people being able to get paid for their work.

Ignore the reality of modders being able to find work, only modding games, but it's happening whether you like it or not. For games that are given out for free, then monetized from the ground up via mods, people self-employ and if they are talented, make huge money.

The old system worked, for you. Now it works for the content creators and the end-consumer.

(04-23-2015, 05:10 PM)Desu Nee Wrote:
(04-23-2015, 05:00 PM)OttoVann Wrote:
(04-23-2015, 04:55 PM)Melkire Wrote:
(04-23-2015, 04:51 PM)OttoVann Wrote: God damn this thread is sad. Â So many people are outright raging because they literally feel entitled to mods for a game, something they didn't work to help create. Â

Don't pay for them if you don't want to, just don't act entitled about it either.

I invite you to take a look at Zandronum (and other, older source ports for Doom, Doom II, Heretic, Hexen, etc.) and FreeSpace 2 Source Code Project for wonderful examples and demos of what can be done and developed for a community by the community when both the tools and the end product are freely available to anyone and everyone.

There's no "entitlement" here, just sad resignation that large companies seek bigger profit margins.

And I invite you to look at games like Dota2, and TeamFortress2, where cosmetics are made almost exclusively by the community and sold to the community. Â Almost no one here plays those games so consider the following:

Many, many artists quit their day jobs to make hats for those games. Â Because the monetization was there. Â "But modders did it in the past for free", okay. Â When you give people an avenue to earn money for their work put in, versus it always being free and relying on charity (which is rare, small, and hardly materializes) you can attract much more skilled people to mod for your game. Â

A lot of people who make cosmetics for games like Dota2 and TF2 make over six figures, easily. Â Anuxi is a good example. Â She would not have quit her day job, and she would not have made cosmetics that a lot of players fucking love without being able to have her work monetized. Â Thank god she was able to get paid for her work and keeps making a lot of stuff people want.

Sure, there will always be free mods, but lets be perfectly honest this thread is reflecting entitlement. Â Simply put. Â Its also ignoring the positive effects that this brings, like attracting people with real talent to mod for a game.

Times have changed, for the better.
That's very relative, because hats and cosmetics in Dota are that. Cosmetics. Completely optional things that influence very little on your game. I'm a ex-TF2 player so I'm aware of the example very well.

But in many games, specially Skyrim, mods actually expand upon the experience, and in many cases are almost necessary, like SKSE and SkyUI. Not having them, while ignorable, becomes very hard to return to the normal, and they naturally expand and influence the game a lot. As of now, the bundle of mods on Skyrim, a game that rely a lot nowadays on mods for it's experience, is almost two times the price of the game.

Should Heavensward be free, via this logic?

Desu Nee · **04-23-2015, 05:16 PM**

(04-23-2015, 05:14 PM)OttoVann Wrote:
(04-23-2015, 05:10 PM)Desu Nee Wrote:
(04-23-2015, 05:00 PM)OttoVann Wrote:
(04-23-2015, 04:55 PM)Melkire Wrote:
(04-23-2015, 04:51 PM)OttoVann Wrote: God damn this thread is sad. Â So many people are outright raging because they literally feel entitled to mods for a game, something they didn't work to help create. Â

Don't pay for them if you don't want to, just don't act entitled about it either.

I invite you to take a look at Zandronum (and other, older source ports for Doom, Doom II, Heretic, Hexen, etc.) and FreeSpace 2 Source Code Project for wonderful examples and demos of what can be done and developed for a community by the community when both the tools and the end product are freely available to anyone and everyone.

There's no "entitlement" here, just sad resignation that large companies seek bigger profit margins.

And I invite you to look at games like Dota2, and TeamFortress2, where cosmetics are made almost exclusively by the community and sold to the community. Â Almost no one here plays those games so consider the following:

Many, many artists quit their day jobs to make hats for those games. Â Because the monetization was there. Â "But modders did it in the past for free", okay. Â When you give people an avenue to earn money for their work put in, versus it always being free and relying on charity (which is rare, small, and hardly materializes) you can attract much more skilled people to mod for your game. Â

A lot of people who make cosmetics for games like Dota2 and TF2 make over six figures, easily. Â Anuxi is a good example. Â She would not have quit her day job, and she would not have made cosmetics that a lot of players fucking love without being able to have her work monetized. Â Thank god she was able to get paid for her work and keeps making a lot of stuff people want.

Sure, there will always be free mods, but lets be perfectly honest this thread is reflecting entitlement. Â Simply put. Â Its also ignoring the positive effects that this brings, like attracting people with real talent to mod for a game.

Times have changed, for the better.
That's very relative, because hats and cosmetics in Dota are that. Cosmetics. Completely optional things that influence very little on your game. I'm a ex-TF2 player so I'm aware of the example very well.

But in many games, specially Skyrim, mods actually expand upon the experience, and in many cases are almost necessary, like SKSE and SkyUI. Not having them, while ignorable, becomes very hard to return to the normal, and they naturally expand and influence the game a lot. As of now, the bundle of mods on Skyrim, a game that rely a lot nowadays on mods for it's experience, is almost two times the price of the game.

Should Heavensward be free, via this logic?

Not really, since it's an official expansion that heavily adds to the game made from the developer themselves with new textures, dialogue, art, enemies, mechanics, etc etc.

It's not something taken from what we have and recycled anew, or not the investment of a third party. But I'm actually tired of this discussion, since I've been having this on other places, and I wanted to vent more than anything.

SicketySix · **04-23-2015, 05:20 PM**

You could easily pay quadruple the amount for the mods as you did the actual game.
That doesn't sound very fun for me. But then again, I have the option to not buy them and do without.

So overall I just find it very "meh"

OttoVann · **04-23-2015, 05:25 PM**

(04-23-2015, 05:20 PM)Casden Reeves Wrote: You could easily pay quadruple the amount for the mods as you did the actual game.
That doesn't sound very fun for me. But then again, I have the option to not buy them and do without.

So overall I just find it very "meh"

Imagine, with this new-aged system in place, what would happen if say Elder Scrolls 6 was free, or something like 10-20 dollars and they from day one they enabled modders to do w/e they want and charge w/e they want. The base game is good, fun, but then your shown all the mods you could buy and expand the game with - if you want. Mods that range from stupid shit like dildo swords to those giant mods in Skyrim that add whole new realms.

Would there be anything wrong with this? I wonder what kind of mods we'd get then, and how quickly they'd be made if their creators knew, from the start, that they could not starve and make something worth their time. Think about all those giant fucking mods we've seen over the years die out due to lack of effort, time, energy, and money. Now imagine people being able to try and make ambitious mods like that, especially if they are onto something people would want to buy, and know that they can live off of it.

Desu Nee · **04-23-2015, 05:27 PM**

(04-23-2015, 05:25 PM)OttoVann Wrote:
(04-23-2015, 05:20 PM)Casden Reeves Wrote: You could easily pay quadruple the amount for the mods as you did the actual game.
That doesn't sound very fun for me. But then again, I have the option to not buy them and do without.

So overall I just find it very "meh"

Imagine, with this new-aged system in place, what would happen if say Elder Scrolls 6 was free, or something like 10-20 dollars and they from day one they enabled modders to do w/e they want and charge w/e they want. Â The base game is good, fun, but then your shown all the mods you could buy and expand the game with - if you want. Â Mods that range from stupid shit like dildo swords to those giant mods in Skyrim that add whole new realms.

Would there be anything wrong with this? Â I wonder what kind of mods we'd get then, and how quickly they'd be made if their creators knew, from the start, that they could not starve and make something worth their time. Â Think about all those giant fucking mods we've seen over the years die out due to lack of effort, time, energy, and money. Â Now imagine people being able to try and make ambitious mods like that, especially if they are onto something people would want to buy, and know that they can live off of it.

No offense, but that would just be an excuse for the devs to do less stuff and just let the community build the game.

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