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No Longer Exists · **05-07-2015, 09:02 AM**

*Peeks out from under his hat*Â

So....when did we break the 4th wall? It has been my understanding since the dawn of online roleplaying that what was once called "metagaming" was a societal no-no.

Metagaming In laymen's terms, the use of information outside of the parameters of the game to affect the game itself. The reverse being the use of in game information to affect the world outside of the game.

This is something that every RPer should be made aware of and generally is. I did a quick google search for "Roleplaying, mixing IC and OOC" and was immediately gifted with rprepository.com and its statement about the distinction between being in character and out of character.

The following statement may sound harsh and I apologize for all the hurt feels it may cause:

You are not your character, this is a game. If you are feeling real, legitimate, emotional anguish over the events and activities surrounding your character in this game; I suggest you seek counselling.

Why did I say that? Because I am afraid that if you are feeling these things about a programmer generated sequence of code and pixel, then you have "moved into the castle in the sky".

We all have a certain level of attachment to our characters, we built them, we nurtured them, we watch them grow. However, most of us also know to how to separate. Some do not. If people want to hear more about this from me, please let me know in PM and I'll ramble about it in another thread. For the moment, allow me to return to the topic at hand.

In my not-so-humble opinion (and some may already be aware of this facet of my personality for better or worse), if I don't like your story, your details, or even the way you misspell every other word? I excuse myself and never come back. Plain and simple.Â

"But Hatter? Why would you do that?"

Simple, it's my time and I'll use it the way I want to.Â

"But Hatter! That's rude!"Â

I agree. It is rude. It is unfair. Equally, it is unfair to me to sit on a game and stare at a chat box full of things I do not care about nor have any interest in for hours. Hours I could spend doing something I enjoy.

And that's the point. Frankly, there's never been an obligation involved in any MMO community or otherwise that dictates getting along. It is a conscious choice and as a choice, it has the capacity to go the other direction. Each individual must remain aware of that conscious choice that each other individual makes to put up with your particular brand of fantasy and be grateful/respectful of it. That is the crux of socialization. No one is required to associate with anyone. I've said this before and I will say it again: Appreciate the attention that you get.

As for this, that, and the other thing: See previous message. It all applies. Being polite, unfortunately, is in the eye of the beholder. You can't dictate how someone will take your behavior, ever. You can only hope for the best.

I'm Black Hat......and I apologize.

Cheers.

Warren Castille · **05-07-2015, 09:05 AM**

(05-07-2015, 08:51 AM)Desu Nee Wrote: At this point I'm actually confused what we're talking at all. I don't mean to detract from the talk, but honestly, what ARE we talking about?

I'm attempting to point out that presuming IC-feedback as OOC-saltiness is a fallacy, and I'm doing a poor job of it!

OP posits that somehow he knew a detractor was OOC-bristling and "lied" to say it was IC-only. Not knowing the circumstances or conversation that's entirely possible, but assuming it's true every time is incorrect.

Desu Nee · **05-07-2015, 09:05 AM**

Funny note that, because Quki is a talented thaumaturge and is not even 20. I'm pretty sure some people would be bothered by that, with or even without context.

Desu Nee · **05-07-2015, 09:17 AM**

Regarding Black Hat position, you definetly have some points, but Mixing of IC and OOC is, like all aspects of life, and human personality in general, not a bad thing. It's true that one should separate fiction from reality, and being overly affected by fiction isn't a VERY healthy thing, but to propose, and raise a banner of complete distinction of the two universes is wrong.

We built our characters, we watch them grow and interact, and sometimes, the stories we write or live affect us. Because again, it may be fiction, but a fiction purpose is more than just give us a timesink. A history can make us laugh, make us sad, make us feel awesome. In many ways, we are living that, even if not as a blatant self insert, and the immersion factor can be as good as in a book, and I highly doubt one can really enjoy a written story in it's entirety without at least without immersion yourself a bit in the story.

So no, I disagree the point that IC and OOC merge is a inherently bad thing. As many say, we are writing and living a fanfiction, and I care little if it's a bunch of codes, and graphics. What matters is the story, by that logic a book is nothing more than a bunch of codes and paper.

Aaron · **05-07-2015, 09:17 AM**

(05-07-2015, 09:05 AM)Desu Nee Wrote: Funny note that, because Quki is a talented thaumaturge and is not even 20. I'm pretty sure some people would be bothered by that, with or even without context.

No personally the age doesn't bother me. You can be 5 for all I care. Natural talent exists in varying quantities.

I think I worded my post wrong. What I meant was the person would randomly say they suddenly could use this and that when they saw fit.

When I first met them all they could do was punch stuff hard. I know this for a fact because we constantly rped and gave each other a glimpse of our skills.

A month later, it's suddenly their a master of every element. And also a master swordsman.Â

Maybe im not explaining it good but yeah. I thiught it was inconsistent.

Kage · **05-07-2015, 09:20 AM**

The point in which people "will walk away" from certain RP isn't just a person's character. It could be -how- the character is played. Does the player just do whatever they want which makes others feel that the RP is too erratic? Are they inconsistent? Are they like me who tends to get moody and burns bridges until there's nothing left? DID I DO THAT RIGHT WARREN

Do they start trying to make IC decisions for your character and then also keep complaining about it OOCly?

If you don't think you can get along, it is better for everyone involved to not have to put up with it. Everyone's time is precious, why get upset about what someone thinks?

I've probably interacted with someone whose some people here -would- think was the most snowflakey/bending/orbreaking lore concept ever. I initially wanted to dismiss them and their character but I found the idea fun. They didn't present it in a way that I thought was "wow wtf just no." I played with it, had fun, the end. I could also have had Kage simply dismissed the notion and thought they should be taken away for their safety and others'.

The ball stops when you are definitely being OOCly fucked over. But I've only ever seen that when some people thought that characters defending a barmaid who was being harassed by someone (dropping glasses all over the place) were OOC "white knights" and that it was taken OOC.

Desu Nee · **05-07-2015, 09:21 AM**

(05-07-2015, 09:17 AM)Aaron Wrote:
(05-07-2015, 09:05 AM)Desu Nee Wrote: Funny note that, because Quki is a talented thaumaturge and is not even 20. I'm pretty sure some people would be bothered by that, with or even without context.
No personally the age doesn't bother me. You can be 5 for all I care. Natural talent exists in varying quantities.

I think I worded my post wrong. What I meant was the person would randomly say they suddenly could use this and that when they saw fit.

When I first met them all they could do was punch stuff hard. I know this for a fact because we constantly rped and gave each other a glimpse of our skills.

A month later, it's suddenly their a master of every element. And also a master swordsman.Â

Maybe im not explaining it good but yeah. I thiught it was inconsistent.

Well yeah it is. Don't worry, this ain't a snipe.

Allister Dedrick · **05-07-2015, 11:41 AM**

I've been accused on multiple occasions of passive-aggressively denouncing another player's character by accosting them IC. And to some degree, I can understand why, but Allister is a painfully mundane person that has been known to be an asshole, a bigot, and mildly racist.

Allister once overheard an individual in the Quicksand claim they killed people to devour their souls, and so he openly laughed and said they were full of themself. I was then hit by a barrage of OOC tells from their friend, exclaiming that I should "learn about someone's character before passing judgement on them like that".

On many occasions, Allister has made snide remarks to a group of people who literally lick each other's bodies in public. He'll also comment at people who are dressed in nothing but strings, as well as people who are dressed head-to-toe in full battle armor.

I had to explain to them in detail that it was my character who was passing judgement, not me as a player. Because that's the truth.

If someone were to walk into a tavern and start seriously discussing killing people and devouring their souls, I'd honestly be surprised if everyone in the room completely ignored that.

If a couple were to start making out, it's all too common for a passerby to shout out "get a room!"

Allister is "that guy".

As a result, he's gotten the shit kicked out of him on multiple occasions for his loud mouth. Allister is almost the polar opposite of how I act in real life, so it's actually a ton of fun to roleplay as... when people can separate IC and OOC.

If someone's character gets insulted in RP and they personally take that insult in the same way it was intended at their character, they probably inserted way too much of themself into their character.

Warren Castille · **05-07-2015, 11:44 AM**

Show Content

Hammersmith · **05-07-2015, 12:06 PM**

(05-07-2015, 11:44 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:

Show Content

Baseless groundless provocative opinion
In my experiences, the people who get the most defensive over these topics are the people who are most aware they're taking big liberties with things.

This is sometimes the case. Â Sometimes it's someone who is really, really full of themself and can't stand to be/don't think anyone deserves to challenge them. Â Which explains why they take the liberties and ignore the idea of strife/challenge.

Both cases are pretty terrible and take a lot of work to "fix", work I'm not interested in investing in someone I just met in a walk up RP. Â I'm doing this for fun, not to be your pet therapist.

That said, what do I do when I hit someone who's dwelling outside the realm I consider acceptable? Â First: I keep away from them. Â Not my buisness, I can choose to guide my IC interaction away from such realms. Â I'm a player and the author, I'm not just hitchhiking on my char's view and I'm not powerless. I can make decisions OOC that affect IC because Shit Can Be Not Worth Dealing With.

This is called being responsible.

It gets more complicated later, like when someone insists on continuing to be in your orbit and continues to ignore what you consider to be tactful play.

That's where you tell them OOCly to please go. Â You disengage them, make it clear the differences make this Not Fun. Â If they keep trying to crowd in without respecting what you are looking for in RP, you circle your wagon of friends and burn the bridge.

Most people? Most sane people? Understand the need to adapt and respect. Â They'll shift or already be within the realm of reason.

Some people don't want to, and that's fine, they can go full Goku Space Wizard Paladin Unicorn with the 500 others. Â There IS a place for everyone. Â Just a matter of finding where yours is.

Passive agressive never works. Â It just causes drama. Â Being direct is hard too, since it's unsubtle and people take it personally, and it's really hard to say "Man. No. I don't like playing with you. Please, go away." without someone assuming it's an attack and a hostile cirtique.

Which is part of the liability of dealing with Humanity at large, I guess.

I have a large amount of flex in my tolerance. Â You're super special unique snowflake ninja Lord of the East who's secretly a king? Fine. Â My guy isn't going to swallow that line, and he's going to assume you're lying. Â Because he's an asshole. Â And it can be hilarious to see the interaction there.

The minute you start yelling at me OOC to respect your Royal Authority, or your millions of Gill, or your Godlike Powers that Are Unique and Special and Better than I Am, well.

I got an ignore button and a "power off" button to boot.

V'aleera · **05-07-2015, 12:16 PM**

(05-07-2015, 11:44 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:

Show Content

Baseless groundless provocative opinion
In my experiences, the people who get the most defensive over these topics are the people who are most aware they're taking big liberties with things.

This post is constructive, positive, and useful to the discussion at hand.

Mod note by FreelanceWizard: User was warned for this post (section 1, minor, intentionally provocative in a negative manner). If you don't agree with someone's opinion, feel free to refute it, but sarcastic sniping is not acceptable.

Flickering Ember · **05-07-2015, 12:26 PM**

(05-07-2015, 09:05 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(05-07-2015, 08:51 AM)Desu Nee Wrote: At this point I'm actually confused what we're talking at all. I don't mean to detract from the talk, but honestly, what ARE we talking about?

I'm attempting to point out that presuming IC-feedback as OOC-saltiness is a fallacy, and I'm doing a poor job of it!

OP posits that somehow he knew a detractor was OOC-bristling and "lied" to say it was IC-only. Not knowing the circumstances or conversation that's entirely possible, but assuming it's true every time is incorrect.

This is so important to me as a RP subject that several times I've contemplated making its own thread. I know exactly what you are talking about, Warren, and I've witnessed it soooo many times throughout the years. Most of my experiences have come through friends, who RP with X person then make presumptions about the player based on RP in OOC channels.

People always state not crossing IC and OOC as being the number one rule, and yet people are doing it constantly. They don't realize they are doing it. This is a really good example of how you can unwittingly cross that border.

Just don't make assumptions ever about a player based on what or how they RP. That is not only IC/OOC crossing, but it's an example of poor communication.

Verad · **05-07-2015, 12:31 PM**

(05-07-2015, 11:44 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:

Show Content

Baseless groundless provocative opinion
In my experiences, the people who get the most defensive over these topics are the people who are most aware they're taking big liberties with things.

I'm not sure how this is a revelation. They're the ones that get the most crap for it. They're the ones who get targeted by shaming blogs, who tend to get "constructive" tells from strangers on a regular basis, who have to worry about "If I reveal this thing that I've put some thought into, are they just going to write my character off as crazy? Am I going to lose somebody I've been RPing with for a while?"

This is neither baseless, nor provocative. It's all quite true. Why do you make it sound like a mark against them?

Hammersmith · **05-07-2015, 12:34 PM**

(05-07-2015, 12:26 PM)Flickering Ember Wrote: Just don't make assumptions ever about a player based on what or how they RP. That is not only IC/OOC crossing, but it's an example of poor communication.

Oh man this.

I have had a longtime stalker/creephat go nuclear weirdo on me because they assumed I was, mentally, Hammersmith. Â And they kept coming back to start shit about it because they thought I needed to be fought and destroyed and "kicked out of every RP group they were ever a part of" to quote something from years ago that I still chuckle at. Â

I got called satan, , a sociopath, and just an asshole. They recently saw me on FF14 enjoying myself at a Fate and started the fire up again, adding other things Hammer doesn't do, but that they assumed evil people must do, like calling me a bigot and a misogynist. I am Evil Being to them, because I play a char who's not shiney, happy, and nice.

I am a lot of things but man, I am not not all of the above. Â I am my own person, separate from my Char and some people -do not know the difference-.

Thankfully: Ignore button, report feature and having a lot of emotional resilience as well as a lot of pity for someone getting that worked up about something That Is Not. I hope they get help, that kind of thing normally comes from a really dark place that needs support to get out of.

SunTzu7 · **05-07-2015, 12:43 PM**

Generally, if RP descends into a massive OOC argument about various aspects, then I start eyeing the emergency exit.

I love getting into arguments, but not really while RP's actively going on. Hit me up later for arguments.

Also if RP doesn't agree with me (see for example, futa lala's. No, don't ask. Context doesn't help.), then I just basically go 'NOPE.' and leave. Sometimes I'll be polite and wait a little after making my excuses.

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