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Enla · **05-15-2015, 08:27 PM**

As a healer I do expect other healers to occasionally add the the DPS, even if it only means putting down an Aero or an Aero 2 and keeping one of them up as much as possible during the fight. With that said however, healing does take priority and if the tank can't take any hits then your first job is to heal and leave the DPS to someone else. Stone is a good way to run out of mana in those sort of situations and should be stopped unless the fight mechanics require a DPS check you don't think the group is going to meet.

That said, sometimes there are tanks out there who think it's fun to put on horrible gear 'for the challenge' or even bots who sneak by. (Oh dear god, Toto-Rak with a bot for a tank is BRUTAL.) Just have to roll with the punches, and if it gets too bad it's usually best to just leave.

C'kayah Polaali · **05-15-2015, 08:28 PM**

Quote:If the tank dies, it's the healer's fault. If the healer dies, it's the tank's fault. If the DPS dies, it's their own damn fault.

It's an amusing phrase, and it's not entirely true (especially in endgame content), but it's pretty much spot on for a level 28 dungeon. Focus on healing the tank, and if something kills you (i.e.: the tank can't keep aggro on everything), it's the tank's fault.

You didn't mention if the tank was a gladiator or marauder. Warriors (and to a lesser degree marauders) tend to have lower resists, and ultimately make up for it by having lots of HP. At lower levels, though, you'll often see them losing huge chunks of HP, and you'll have to focus more on healing them.

One last tip: As a healer, I do spend time doing damage in dungeons, but I don't sweat it if I can't. It's far more important to have enough MP to heal than it is to add a little bit of damage. When I do cast damage spells, I focus on spells with lower MP costs and alternate effects. Stone, for instance, is better than Stone II in a dungeon because it costs less MP and it adds a heavy effect, even though it does less damage.

Melkire · **05-15-2015, 08:31 PM**

(05-15-2015, 08:28 PM)Ckayah Polaali Wrote: You didn't mention if the tank was a gladiator or marauder.

OP specifically mentioned Overpower.

Harmonixer · **05-15-2015, 08:47 PM**

Something that somewhat unsettles me about healers that I've encountered on this game is that they take the time to DPS at all whenever a tank is taking any noticeable amount of damage.

Perhaps I'm from a different school of thought, but I'm a firm believer in pre-casting spells to prepare for oncoming damage when I know a large attack is coming. It is also true that any one in a tank role should be using their active mitigation skills to help this, but I still cannot find myself wanting to defend a WHM insists on spamming Holy in the cleave zones (facing away or not, sometimes they get clipped) and refusing to cast anything other than the occasional Medica.

For OP's particular situation, I think you'll be encountering a fair amount of people that generally assume that a dungeon doesn't mean 'hey, group activity! I may be responsible for things' and more of a 'I hope everyone here will carry me so I may collect my exp/loot/rewards and I'll be able to do as little as possible!'. Often, if you are not in the company of friends, expect to do twice the work you normally do and mental preparation is required for this.

I consider myself a career tank in MMOs. I've done it in many, many forms and find it to be my most comfortable spot. Most of the time I make the extra effort for myself to have the right gear, know the fights before hand and keep as many tools available to myself as possible as a 'just in case' measure. I played healers in all of these titles to further understand what I was subjecting people to when I did tank and discovered quite quickly that very few people care about others in PUGs. In this game, it hasn't nearly been as bad as I've seen (Save for a few CT runs and a WoD here or there). So I consider myself quite fortunate.

tl;dr

If you aren't running with friends,expect the worst and do whatever you can to prepare yourself for it.

Qhora Bajihri · **05-15-2015, 09:26 PM**

I've seen an amazingly geared tank take a metric buttload of damage where crappier geared tanks have held up like boulders. I have theories as to why this happened but at the time I was busy picking my jaw up off the floor. I didn't notice if they had a lot of STR gear on at the time. Now I wonder.

As for levelling on the way up, even if your gear is getting downleveled, I've noticed some instances just seem to be rougher than others in terms of how much damage is going out. So add that to letting gear slack a bit, and it's gonna feel like an elephant stampede.

SicketySix · **05-15-2015, 09:55 PM**

Oh yes it's very common, they are the only class that enters an instance with underdeveloped gear.....THE ONLY CLASS MAN IM TELLING YA!

Not.

Melkire · **05-15-2015, 10:02 PM**

(05-15-2015, 09:26 PM)Qhora Bajihri Wrote: I've seen an amazingly geared tank take a metric buttload of damage where crappier geared tanks have held up like boulders. I have theories as to why this happened but at the time I was busy picking my jaw up off the floor. I didn't notice if they had a lot of STR gear on at the time. Now I wonder.

I was spiritbonding as WAR in Castrum last night wearing nothing but Gathering/Crafting gear on the left, i120/i130 STR and VIT accessories on the right, and a level 49 Labrys or something.

My fellow tank was a more-than-properly-geared-for-the-instance PLD with Curtana Zenith, an i90 weapon.

I was stealing/holding hate against him and a 5.7k hp WHM pocket healer. I was surviving despite a 4500hp-after-Defiance health pool and a 51 level disadvantage in weapon damage, partly thanks to said healer but mainly due to good cooldown usage (hello, Holmgang <3).

Gear matters, but player skill matters more and difference in player skill, imo, can make up for some serious gear disparity.

tl;dr: Know how to play your class.

Sounsyy · **05-15-2015, 10:58 PM**

At that low level (28), the only stat that really matters for mitigation is Defense and Magic Defense, which only come by equipping higher Item Level gear or gear of increased rarity, like pink or green items, which typically have a better defensive rating if they're for tanks specifically. The main hand weapon is important for maintaining hate levels, yes, but does absolutely nothing for mitigation.

That said, many tanks/players will opt not to gear themselves out with the latest gear set, for any number of reasons, such as not wanting to spend money on a set they'll only be using for an hour if they're burning levels. Many hold out for the dungeon pink/green items. In the next dungeon after Haukke, Brayflox Longstop actually drops some very good tank gear. That player may be holding out for that. Is it in their own best interest or in the interest of their healer's sanity? Not really, but not everyone is looking to make life easier on folks.

At later levels, undergearing or alternative gear options can be alleviated by effective Cooldown usage and a little bit of know-how. But at low levels, MRD in particular does not have many defensive options. Fortunately, at 30, they'll get Defiance which will give them a marginal HP buffer with a constant Healing Potency increase, making tanking and healing much easier for everyone involved.

As for STR vs VIT tanks, the biggest difference is playstyle. Gearing STR is actually far more efficient gearing for a tank (and also provides higher mitigation than VIT) but does require the tank to be on top of cooldowns, AoE avoidance, and in the case of WAR, self healing. It's not a style you can be complacent with and just 1-2-3 snooze repeat. Having full i130 VIT accessories versus STR is only a 1,957 HP difference anyways. And at i130... that's an incredibly negligible value. Especially considering the trade off is 115 STR, which provides greatly increased damage, enmity, self healing, and parry/block strength.

Zyrusticae · **05-15-2015, 11:32 PM**

(05-15-2015, 10:58 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: (and also provides higher mitigation than VIT)

Very marginally so, yes. I wish it were more substantial. It'd make my life a whole lot easier.

For the record, the difference is like 2% more parry damage reduction for 100 more Str, which is... not a lot, and it's not like you're parrying anywhere close to 100% of attacks anyway.

Doesn't matter tho, Str tank all the way here. Gotta have dat DPS. I find I have no problems tanking expert dungeons, and usually, if I die, it's because I made a mistake or the healer had issues. We have so many mitigation tools that, yeah, that HP buffer is basically completely unnecessary for the majority of content. Only in Coil, and even then, only as the MT would I say you should be running with VIT accessories and assigned stats.

It's worth noting that the healer should be able to keep up with the damage, and if they cannot, a 1.3-2k HP buffer will not save you. You'll die just because the healer can't keep up with the attrition. This rarely happens, and if it does, it's usually because they are either woefully undergeared or are doing something very wrong. The only exception is when the boss is putting out an attack that takes out your entire HP bar in one go, or very nearly one go (to the point where they can kill you on the next auto), but then again, that's what Holmgang is for. Wink

Kasumi Gakunin · **05-16-2015, 01:22 AM**

For those who asked it was a War in pretty much all Strength Gear. He had a few Vit items but I'd think in a high level dungeon situation he's switch back to Vit gear. Anyroad, I just stopped dpsing and focused on healing cause that's my job and personally I hate it when Healers dps and don't bother healing till I'm almost dead (I run paladin on occasion). It just would have made my life easier if a tank whose meant to take heaps of damage would wear gear to boost his vitality.Â
To my credit he didn't die once but it was just harder to keep him alive.

Edda · **05-16-2015, 02:00 AM**

(05-16-2015, 01:22 AM)Lacey Orwell Wrote: Anyroad, I just stopped dpsing and focused on healing cause that's my job and personally I hate it when Healers dps and don't bother healing till I'm almost dead (I run paladin on occasion).

WHY.

Here is a mentality I will never understand. Here you are, a White Mage, with so many spells at your disposal. And you do not want, or want anyone else, to use half of them. Why? "Durrrr we have DPS skills so we can do solo MSQ stuff and that's it." WRONG. White Mages have one purpose, and one purpose only: MASS DESTRUCTION. Regen is just a bonus.

Trust your healers to know when/how to DPS. No one likes a kid that stands there with their thumbs up their ass waiting for the tank to take damage. Everyone likes completing a dungeon 10-15 minutes ahead of schedule.

[Image: vBBN2pt.jpg]

Remember Sylphie, from the CNJ quest lines? Of course you do. At no point in those quests was Sylphie ever an example of what-to-do as a healer. This quote is no exception. It was our job as the Warrior of Light to show Sylphie how to heal properly, as well as, for lack of a better phrase: "fuck shit up." Does this quote not scream "ignorant snot-nosed brat" to you? Because it sure does to me. One day Sylphie will be running WP HM and she will have to make a choice - wait for the DRG and MNK she got paired with to finish off a mass pull and wait for her MP to drain as the tank gets crapped on waiting for the mobs to die? Or go manmode and blast their butts to the Seventh Hell with a few well-placed holys?

DPSing as a healer is your job, whether you like it or not. Not that this is directed at you personally Lacey, but seriously all you heal-only healers out there, laziness is a sin. And if you're tanking and die because your healer was going HAM, well... at least it was for a good cause. Thumbsup

/rant

Nako Vesh · **05-16-2015, 03:11 AM**

I honestly don't understand the healers who just stand there between heals. Don't you get bored? I certainly do! And I LOVE it when my healers spam Holy on big group pulls! It helps mitigate damage with the stuns! And if they pull aggro? Oh, well, cast Cover!

Gone. · **05-16-2015, 03:25 AM**

(05-16-2015, 02:00 AM)Edda Wrote: *snipped for length*

You're... joking, right?

If it was a healer's job to DPS, then they would be queued as such in duty finder, or at least given the option to do so.

As it stands now, this is not how the game is designed, thus if you are WHM or SCH, your first and foremost priority should be the safety and well-being of your fellow party members. If you don't feel comfortable DPSing, then don't. There's no reason to take a risk just because you can and frankly there's very little I can think of more frustrating than watching some wannabe BLM spam Holy over and over while everyone else burns.

If there's a reasonable window to switch into Cleric's, then sure, go for it, but it's not a requirement by any means, nor does it shirk one from what they were brought there to do in the first place just because the option is available.

It's selfish attitudes like this that push our potential healers away from ever picking up a cane or grimoire. No one deserves to be abused for having what ultimately amounts to a cautious play style, much less so if they're wiling to endure what is, in my opinion, the most selfless role one can ever play in an RPG.

--Signed, a frequent stance dancer

Warren Castille · **05-16-2015, 04:06 AM**

Healers who don't DPS are the equivalent to tanks who /readycheck before every single solo pack pull.

There's a difference between cautious and slacking. Good healers tow the line. Bad healers go hard one way or the other.

OttoVann · **05-16-2015, 04:19 AM**

Edda is right in the context of being a good healer. In this context, a good healer is one that can down, shit any fight in FCOB when it was new and relevant I guess. Healers back then had to dps, I was one of them DPSing in i109 gear as a WHM in Turn11 back in like November or October.

Good-ENOUGH healers don't need to dps because they let the group carry them through while they spend, assuming their group is competent and doesn't take unneeded damage, a lot of time being idle. A whole lot. Good-ENOUGH healers are likely not downing Turn13 until it gets nerfed, a lot. Successful groups that say, beat t9 or t13 when they were relevant, did not have two Good-ENOUGH healers. Only one at the most.

Bad healers refuse to dps on principle because "Im a healer and HEALERS dont dps." Or something to this effect. They can get carried through any fight once its nerfed, and will likely never beat stiff dps check fights until the nerfs roll in and will exclusively be the anchor holding a decidedly good group back from the win.

All healers should bust ass to dps in dungeons if they can because they respect their time and want to get out sooner. I know I can speed up dungeons by several minutes on my whm. I like doing that. If you value your time less, fine, but this isn't a debate.

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Is this common for tanks?

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes