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BroodingFicus · **05-21-2015, 06:42 PM**

I understand wanting to walk new players through the game. But they should not be the /only/ consideration. I still feel like there should be some sort of link between your characters and once I level through the main story once, all alts are excused from it. The first time through, I enjoyed it. Now? This would be my third time and it starts to feel like I'm paying them to do something I end up hating. Which really...I wouldn't even mind redoing the story etc if I could do it as a new class. Hence why I have alts as it is. At least that way I feel I'm being educated and prepared for high level stuff, learning my class, rotation etc. Not the case if I'm forced to do it as a class that is just a place holder.

Zyrusticae · **05-24-2015, 03:21 PM**

(05-21-2015, 06:20 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: Item level in particular has always baffled me as a design choice. Why not just go full horizontal at level cap that way the gear you find actually has some long-term value? I just don't get it.

Also, while the story in FFXIV is certainly competent, it is not the main draw for me, not by a longshot; the game world and attention detail are what draw me here as well as the varying mechanics at max level. It's an expansive, nuanced game hidden behind numerous locked doors.

The reasoning is extremely obvious: they want a carrot on a stick for maxed-out players to chase over and over again. Horizontal gear drops does not accomplish this because the motivation to gun for that gear simply is not strong enough (not to mention it can introduce serious balance issues that result in certain pieces of gear being used for years without replacement). This is besides the fact that the game was not designed for that sort of thing to begin with, so adding it down the road would only introduce massive complications as they try to work things out.

I do understand the game's story shouldn't take so much priority in your view, but obviously Yoshida disagrees, and he is treating the game much like a single-player RPG in that regard - he wants to able to have some serious story developments occur, and having people be able to skip around is quite problematic for that kind of storytelling. Unfortunately, if this does not sit right with you, it's just something you'll have to deal with.

(05-21-2015, 06:42 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote:
(05-21-2015, 06:12 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: If a brand new player isn't willing to go through the original game, and just wants to hop into new content, well then tough luck, this game isn't for them.

That's less of a concern than how many new players will there be at those levels? Most of the gating content is group-based.

People are already having a tough time to do MSQ dungeons if they're a certain class while leveling. Not because they're difficult but because nobody queues for low-level unless they absolutely need to. Couple that with the typical lack of tanks/healers in MMOs, there's the recipe for a full blown disaster. Around as bad as the original Tri-Disaster.

They only need to properly incentivize the low-level roulette. As it is, it's just not rewarding enough for the time you have to put in. Give it enough of an incentive and people WILL run it.

Gone. · **05-24-2015, 03:43 PM**

(05-24-2015, 03:21 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: The reasoning is extremely obvious: they want a carrot on a stick for maxed-out players to chase over and over again. Horizontal gear drops does not accomplish this because the motivation to gun for that gear simply is not strong enough (not to mention it can introduce serious balance issues that result in certain pieces of gear being used for years without replacement). This is besides the fact that the game was not designed for that sort of thing to begin with, so adding it down the road would only introduce massive complications as they try to work things out.

"Carrot on a stick" only appeases a small minority. In a game that the director advertises as easily accessible, this is counter-productive in the entirety.

Frankly I've never seen a game with said balance issues due to horizontal gear; Guild Wars 2 did it just fine and the balance issues were found elsewhere, not in the gear itself.

The game already really is designed for it; merge ilevel and required level, tie stats to the colored tiers, scale back post-ilevel 60 content and boom, done. Time consuming and unlikely? Sure, but it's not an Einstein project.

(05-24-2015, 03:21 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: I do understand the game's story shouldn't take so much priority in your view, but obviously Yoshida disagrees, and he is treating the game much like a single-player RPG in that regard - he wants to able to have some serious story developments occur, and having people be able to skip around is quite problematic for that kind of storytelling. Unfortunately, if this does not sit right with you, it's just something you'll have to deal with.

Once again, Guild Wars 2 managed it just fine. The story was entirely optional making it no longer a tedium (at least in that regard, the writing was another story) to simply wade through. Hell, it works out just fine for countless sandbox games. Why not here?

Don't get me wrong, either, I totally get it; SQX wants that single player Final Fantasy appeal. That's fine and all, I can deal, but at least do us all a favor and have the MSQ unlock things on an account level. It's too much of an epic to do more than the one time, nor is it really good enough for that matter.

Zyrusticae · **05-24-2015, 07:32 PM**

(05-24-2015, 03:43 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: "Carrot on a stick" only appeases a small minority. In a game that the director advertises as easily accessible, this is counter-productive in the entirety.

Frankly I've never seen a game with said balance issues due to horizontal gear; Guild Wars 2 did it just fine and the balance issues were found elsewhere, not in the gear itself.

The game already really is designed for it; merge ilevel and required level, tie stats to the colored tiers, scale back post-ilevel 60 content and boom, done. Time consuming and unlikely? Sure, but it's not an Einstein project.

GW2's entire world and game design is completely different from ARR's. There's no point trying to use that as an example when the two games share almost no mechanics to speak of.

The class mechanics alone make it impossible for them to change things that drastically. Unless they completely retooled the way attributes work in the game, there would be no reason to pick anything other than the most optimal stat mixes as players already do now. And that would be one seriously major undertaking, to say the least.

And if you've never seen balance issues with horizontal gear, I can only assume you never played FFXI, which is where those issues were really noticeable and a large part of why FFXIV is itemized the way it is.

GW2's form of horizontal gear is mostly meaningless anyway. Once you have your optimal stat mix you have zero incentive to get another set. A huge part of what people want from horizontal gear is for each piece to have more meaning than simple ilvls. GW2 does NOT accomplish this. In that regard, its gear system is a failure.

(05-24-2015, 03:43 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: Once again, Guild Wars 2 managed it just fine. The story was entirely optional making it no longer a tedium (at least in that regard, the writing was another story) to simply wade through. Hell, it works out just fine for countless sandbox games. Why not here?

Don't get me wrong, either, I totally get it; SQX wants that single player Final Fantasy appeal. That's fine and all, I can deal, but at least do us all a favor and have the MSQ unlock things on an account level. It's too much of an epic to do more than the one time, nor is it really good enough for that matter.

GW2's style is to have permanent story developments that completely and irreversibly change sections of the game world. ARE YOU SURE THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT? There is no way to replay sections of the story that you missed out on. This is one of my biggest complaints about the way GW2 does things.

I mean, they could have Ishgard permanently open their doors to everyone after a mass story event... that no one could ever replay or experience again because it was a one-time deal. I'm pretty sure the amount of bitching that would occur would be just as astronomical as what did happen to Arenanet when they did the same thing. No, even greater, because at least in GW2's case a fair chunk of the playerbase doesn't give a toss about its story whereas Final Fantasy is a completely different matter.

That being said, they could at least give us access to classes without having to play through main story content and going through the ilvl grind... but apparently they decided against that. I don't know the thought process behind why they made that decision, but I can only assume they thought long and hard about it before making it. Or at least, I would hope as much.

I do agree that being able to skip all the unlocking with alts would be a great change, however. That's one thing that FFXIV does really, really poorly.

Marisa · **05-24-2015, 08:14 PM**

I am honestly kind of horrified by some of the things I'm reading in this thread. Its like half of you have never played a Triple-A mmo before. Fact is, y'all signed on for a Final Fantasy reskin of WoW, and with that mindset almost all of SE's major decisions in the last two years were very easy to predict. This is how expansions are done in the big leagues, and how they have been done for over a decade. What horrified me the most was the statement that "SE is going to lose a lot of money because of this decision", which is an absolutely absurd notion. Most of XIV's player base came here from WoW or some other Everquest-style game. The RPC may be full of people who played FFXI, but thats a demographic bias. Outside the RP community, it's a small minority. As such, the vast majority of the playerbase expects expansions to operate in a very specific way, the exact way which SE is implementing. If anything, not doing it like this is what would kill XIV. Doing anything which is counter-intuitive to the mainstream, no matter how fun it might be, is suicide for a large game. This isn't some 3rd-rate Korean f2p game operating on a couple thousands dollars a month. FFXIV is one of the big boys and it has to play by big boy rules.Â

As for the idea that players will have to sit at level 50 and grind out gear to access Heavensward, that's also nonsense. They haven't said how they'll change that, but it's nearly a guarantee that it'll be changed. Likely through some sort of Echo buff, much like you get in the solo instances throughout the MSQ. And we can guarantee this because at the end of the day, Yoshida is a man who was raised on Western RPGs. He knows exactly how Americans play games, and thus far he's catered to that. I'm baffled at how many of you suddenly think he's going to abandon that for no apparent reason.

Kellach Woods · **05-24-2015, 08:38 PM**

(05-24-2015, 08:14 PM)Ryoko Wrote: As for the idea that players will have to sit at level 50 and grind out gear to access Heavensward, that's also nonsense. They haven't said how they'll change that, but it's nearly a guarantee that it'll be changed. Likely through some sort of Echo buff, much like you get in the solo instances throughout the MSQ. And we can guarantee this because at the end of the day, Yoshida is a man who was raised on Western RPGs. He knows exactly how Americans play games, and thus far he's catered to that. I'm baffled at how many of you suddenly think he's going to abandon that for no apparent reason.

Exactly why people are concerned. They've not addressed that, nor have they addressed if airships will lock you out of significant content or no.

Also, Echo buffs do not allow subgeared people to do the dungeons, btw. If you're undergeared you're undergeared and the system will not allow for that. They'd have to manually nerf and analyze the threshold needed to nerf it if necessary. Although, considering every rotation is rehauled, I'm not exactly sure if everything will work as intended at 50 since you will no longer be a complete character at that point.

Naunet · **05-24-2015, 10:43 PM**

This presents a two-fold problem to me... one, the story quest requirements are such a dang chore and (I realize this is an unpopular opinion, sorry xD) truly quite boring. I think it's a huge mistake to wall off a new expac of content behind an outdated ilvl grind, story be damned.

But really what was the nail in the coffin for me was locking the new jobs behind additional levels. Comparisons to death knights are not really accurate because you 1) didn't have to come close to level cap on a character in order to be able to make a DK, 2) you can start your character as a DK and that's that, no frustrating forced play as a class you do not want.

Marisa · **05-25-2015, 05:52 AM**

(05-24-2015, 08:38 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: Also, Echo buffs do not allow subgeared people to do the dungeons, btw. If you're undergeared you're undergeared and the system will not allow for that. They'd have to manually nerf and analyze the threshold needed to nerf it if necessary. Although, considering every rotation is rehauled, I'm not exactly sure if everything will work as intended at 50 since you will no longer be a complete character at that point.

Sure it can. It hasn't been used for dungeons yet, but there are several solo instances throughout the MSQ where an echo buff was applied which raised the characters stats. Literally all it would take to solve the issue of level 50 dungeons is an upward level-sync.Â

And of course, it's not like you'll just be sitting there grinding out dungeons with no reward. You'll be getting experience the whole time, meaning you'll probably have a few level head-start when you hit 3.0 content.

Clover · **05-25-2015, 07:10 AM**

Personally, if I were a new player just coming to FFXIV, everything would be new for me. Exploring Ishgard or exploring Ul'dah would be the same. Old content might be tedious for veterans, butÂ not for a new player (?). I find it quite logical that new content is aimed at people who have already done the old content, while new players still have a lot of things to learn and explore. And still,Â new playersÂ are able to create Au Ras without reaching the Yugiri part, so not everything is locked.

Also, if I were eager to explore Ishgard or get any of the new clases, that'd beÂ my goal. Aren't MMORPGs about goals?

It can't be helped that FFXIV's story happens to be important, and thus there's no other wayÂ to doÂ this than to reach that point of the story. It's like a game releasing a DLC that continues the main story after it ended. Just beat the game, then play the DLC; I personallyÂ don't find it a big deal.

Kellach Woods · **05-25-2015, 07:50 AM**

(05-25-2015, 05:52 AM)Ryoko Wrote: Sure it can. It hasn't been used for dungeons yet, but there are several solo instances throughout the MSQ where an echo buff was applied which raised the characters stats. Literally all it would take to solve the issue of level 50 dungeons is an upward level-sync.Â

And of course, it's not like you'll just be sitting there grinding out dungeons with no reward. You'll be getting experience the whole time, meaning you'll probably have a few level head-start when you hit 3.0 content.

Try going into Coil while undergeared - just T1 will do. You have an Echo buff from the start these days, but you still need i70 to do so. Patching in an Echo buff won't change iLevel requirements, and yeah sure it's easy to get up there in iLevels these days... provided you can get a group, period. Unless they went out of their way to make solo versions of these instances (which would be arguably incredibly stupid) what you propose won't change a thing.

The best news to combat a bit of this (in short from 30-49) is that new classes start at 30. Since that means from 30 onwards there'll be a bigger pool of people leveling DRKs and Astros.

The problem is the amount of available bodies who will be around to do 2.1-2.5 content. The only solution that's been brought forward is literally "let's help the new people!" or "they should join an established FC!"

Joining a rando FC should never be a solution, and people here shouldn't feel pressured into helping out new people.

Since this needs reiterating : NO ONE IS SAYING THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE TO DO THE CONTENT. I'm saying that this decision has underlying problems that I'd like the devs to address.

Steel Wolf · **05-25-2015, 08:10 AM**

(05-25-2015, 07:50 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote: The problem is the amount of available bodies who will be around to do 2.1-2.5 content. The only solution that's been brought forward is literally "let's help the new people!" or "they should join an established FC!"

Joining a rando FC should never be a solution, and people here shouldn't feel pressured into helping out new people.

Since this needs reiterating : NO ONE IS SAYING THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE TO DO THE CONTENT. I'm saying that this decision has underlying problems that I'd like the devs to address.

Really really good post here, though I will have to disagree with a few points, respectfully. The requirement for people to come together and clear content is part of the draw of MMOs for many, and considering that was the only way one could play XI, it's a good enough nod to that design mindset while still streamlining (mostly) the ways people can pull together.

Now, obviously, that doesn't work for everyone...and I still feel like the item level gating and level gating for basic-ass quality of life features is probably the dumbest decision in MMOs since "no chat bubbles for you". But as someone who played MMOs mostly solo and was terrified of dungeoneering upon my return to XIV, the sense of community that comes out of needing to group up is palpable. It's not warm and snuggly at all times, and there's still folks who just DF to use people as tools instead of people, but having done LOTS of solo-friendly MMO'ing, there is something to be said for how making grouping mandatory draws people together, even if only temporarily.

Jonexe · **05-25-2015, 11:16 AM**

Honestly, at this point, there's nothing to be done about it. You either do the stuff and be ready now or you don't.

If it honestly, truly concerns you then you should take your concern directly the FFXIV Official Forums (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/forum.php) and tell the developers about it. Arguing the various points back and forth here does nothing, and doesn't get anyone to address any concerns you have. We're never going to have a consensus here, and even if we did it amounts to exactly zero.

Qhora Bajihri · **05-25-2015, 01:06 PM**

When FFXI launched in North America, it already had an expansion. I couldn't access the expansion jobs without going through a whole bunch of hoops. Granted, they weren't as many hoops as doing the entirety of the XIV storyline, but it's not like all of the content was available to everyone the moment they logged in. Expansions are additions to main content. If new players want to start, they do the old content, then the new content. It's not that insane.

The ilevel is almost solved by the soldiery bonuses that players get just doing the dungeons for the main story. Tons of soldiery, buy the gear, get the ilevel, keep storying?

Hopefully, the devs and whoever else in charge are listening to the grumbling (not here, no doubt, but I assume this isn't an isolated discussion) and have plans for how to make the transition into new content smoother for certain groups of people, or will implement adjustments as problems arise. But for the vast majority who are expanding the content they already play and have been playing (and aren't playing alts because alts aren't the norm), expectation of having finished certain story chapters is not at all odd or bad.

Marisa · **05-25-2015, 04:06 PM**

(05-25-2015, 07:50 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote:
(05-25-2015, 05:52 AM)Ryoko Wrote: Sure it can. It hasn't been used for dungeons yet, but there are several solo instances throughout the MSQ where an echo buff was applied which raised the characters stats. Literally all it would take to solve the issue of level 50 dungeons is an upward level-sync.Â

And of course, it's not like you'll just be sitting there grinding out dungeons with no reward. You'll be getting experience the whole time, meaning you'll probably have a few level head-start when you hit 3.0 content.

Try going into Coil while undergeared - just T1 will do. You have an Echo buff from the start these days, but you still need i70 to do so. Patching in an Echo buff won't change iLevel requirements, and yeah sure it's easy to get up there in iLevels these days... provided you can get a group, period. Unless they went out of their way to make solo versions of these instances (which would be arguably incredibly stupid) what you propose won't change a thing.

The best news to combat a bit of this (in short from 30-49) is that new classes start at 30. Since that means from 30 onwards there'll be a bigger pool of people leveling DRKs and Astros.

The problem is the amount of available bodies who will be around to do 2.1-2.5 content. The only solution that's been brought forward is literally "let's help the new people!" or "they should join an established FC!"

Joining a rando FC should never be a solution, and people here shouldn't feel pressured into helping out new people.

Since this needs reiterating : NO ONE IS SAYING THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE TO DO THE CONTENT. I'm saying that this decision has underlying problems that I'd like the devs to address.

How is it any different from the parts of the 1-49 MSQ which already require dungeons? Roll them all into low-level roulette, scale them down to be doable in ilvl 60 gear, and call it a day. Again, we've been playing this game for 2 years now, and it's heavily based on a game most of us played for up to a decade. Nothing here is new, and it's entirely easy to predict exactly what SE will do.Â

Seriously, have a little faith in the dev team. They're not idiots.

Tyndles · **05-25-2015, 04:29 PM**

(05-25-2015, 04:06 PM)Ryoko Wrote:
(05-25-2015, 07:50 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote:
(05-25-2015, 05:52 AM)Ryoko Wrote: Sure it can. It hasn't been used for dungeons yet, but there are several solo instances throughout the MSQ where an echo buff was applied which raised the characters stats. Literally all it would take to solve the issue of level 50 dungeons is an upward level-sync.Â

And of course, it's not like you'll just be sitting there grinding out dungeons with no reward. You'll be getting experience the whole time, meaning you'll probably have a few level head-start when you hit 3.0 content.

Try going into Coil while undergeared - just T1 will do. You have an Echo buff from the start these days, but you still need i70 to do so. Patching in an Echo buff won't change iLevel requirements, and yeah sure it's easy to get up there in iLevels these days... provided you can get a group, period. Unless they went out of their way to make solo versions of these instances (which would be arguably incredibly stupid) what you propose won't change a thing.

The best news to combat a bit of this (in short from 30-49) is that new classes start at 30. Since that means from 30 onwards there'll be a bigger pool of people leveling DRKs and Astros.

The problem is the amount of available bodies who will be around to do 2.1-2.5 content. The only solution that's been brought forward is literally "let's help the new people!" or "they should join an established FC!"

Joining a rando FC should never be a solution, and people here shouldn't feel pressured into helping out new people.

Since this needs reiterating : NO ONE IS SAYING THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE TO DO THE CONTENT. I'm saying that this decision has underlying problems that I'd like the devs to address.

How is it any different from the parts of the 1-49 MSQ which already require dungeons? Roll them all into low-level roulette, scale them down to be doable in ilvl 60 gear, and call it a day. Again, we've been playing this game for 2 years now, and it's heavily based on a game most of us played for up to a decade. Nothing here is new, and it's entirely easy to predict exactly what SE will do.Â

Seriously, have a little faith in the dev team. They're not idiots.

Ryoko has it pretty much nailed. Â Things with the MSQ WILL change so no one needs to grind out level 50 content (Not counting finishing the MSQ) before they go to Heavensward stuff. Â Either they'll reward ilevel 100 stuff during the last branches of the MSQ, or the required instances will have their ilevel dropped WAAY down. Probably both. Â I suspect that the requirement to complete the MSQ will be relaxed some time after release though.

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Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice?

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