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Aduu Avagnar · **06-05-2015, 10:57 PM**

(06-05-2015, 10:27 PM)BroodingFicus Wrote:
(06-05-2015, 08:48 PM)Cedric Wrote:
(06-05-2015, 08:40 PM)OttoVann Wrote: Wait a second, do I need to have all of these shitty MSQs done before I can do Early Access?
I think it's safe to say that you'd need to finish 2.55 before entering Ishgard during Early Access. And opening the three new jobs.

Au Ra will be available from the get-go.

Yep. That seems to be the way of it at this point. *pets alts sadly*

If I didn't believe the MSQ should be account wide when completed before, I certainly do now. Its atrocious on replay and it isn't always great the first time through anyhow. I'd say each installment about five or six of the quests are essential and the rest are ridiculous padding where the Warrior of Light/main character is sent on stupid errands like he/she secretly had a partial lobotomy and forgot they actually had better things to do before they agreed to delay saving the freakin' world to get everyone some tea.Â

Do it once. Done. Its replay value is 0. And if you don't want me making alts, don't give me new races. Up until now I was willing to accept that making alts was my decision and I would just have to suffer for it. But with Au Ra, there is a very mixed message here. Have a new race but oh, don't make new characters or we'll make things supremely dull for you and we won't even let you be the class you want. HAVE A NICE DAY.

Suffice it to say I imagine myself in the MSQ with my Au Ra AST to be being about as much fun as laying on a bed of fire ants. *clicks angrily through dialogue*Â

The thing is, the game is designed to not need alts. The only downside to that is the inventory space. The entire game is built around the fact that you can do everything on one character. I don't see that changing as it is a core feature of the game.

Swashbuckler · **06-05-2015, 11:19 PM**

(06-05-2015, 10:57 PM)Nako Wrote: The thing is, the game is designed to not need alts. The only downside to that is the inventory space. The entire game is built around the fact that you can do everything on one character. I don't see that changing as it is a core feature of the game.

Mentioned before, but I think that this being said, it bears mentioning again.

What was their purpose of giving us 8 character slots per server if this was such an alt-unfriendly game? (Rhetorical question.)

Granted, there *is* such an option of only having 1 character slot for a great price of $12.95...

Gone. · **06-05-2015, 11:20 PM**

(06-05-2015, 10:57 PM)Nako Wrote: The thing is, the game is designed to not need alts. The only downside to that is the inventory space. The entire game is built around the fact that you can do everything on one character. I don't see that changing as it is a core feature of the game.

You forgot tome caps, cross-class skills, gear lockouts, etc.

FFXIV punishes you for doing everything on one character to begin with, contrary to how it's advertised. Either have one or the other, you know?

Aduu Avagnar · **06-05-2015, 11:31 PM**

(06-05-2015, 11:20 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote:
(06-05-2015, 10:57 PM)Nako Wrote: The thing is, the game is designed to not need alts. The only downside to that is the inventory space. The entire game is built around the fact that you can do everything on one character. I don't see that changing as it is a core feature of the game.

You forgot tome caps, cross-class skills, gear lockouts, etc.

FFXIV punishes you for doing everything on one character to begin with, contrary to how it's advertised. Either have one or the other, you know?

tome caps and gear lock outs are staples of MMO's, its a gating mechanism.

cross class skills are a reason to level everything on one character... not a punishment.

There is no punishment in doing everything on one character.

Gone. · **06-05-2015, 11:36 PM**

Staples in some MMOs. Not that it changes anything just because another game is guilty of the same flaws. It's punishment via tedium, plain and simple.

Either make multi-classing viable on one character outside of the magic classes or give those eight character slots some incentive. It's really not that hard either way.

Aduu Avagnar · **06-05-2015, 11:40 PM**

(06-05-2015, 11:36 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: Staples in some MMOs. Not that it changes anything just because another game is guilty of the same flaws. It's punishment via tedium, plain and simple.

Either make multi-classing viable on one character outside of the magic classes or give those eight character slots some incentive. It's really not that hard either way.

multi classing is very viable outside of the magic classes. I speak as someone who has all of them leveled and reasonably geared....

and I /really/ don't see how its a punishment, they don't want people to have no reason to play, so they artifically elongate the time spent in game by gating stuff through caps and lockouts. It's a business design that is proven to work, and is an inconvenience at worst.

Swashbuckler · **06-05-2015, 11:46 PM**

(06-05-2015, 11:40 PM)Nako Wrote: multi classing is very viable outside of the magic classes. I speak as someone who has all of them leveled and reasonably geared....

and I /really/ don't see how its a punishment, they don't want people to have no reason to play, so they artifically elongate the time spent in game by gating stuff through caps and lockouts. It's a business design that is proven to work, and is an inconvenience at worst.

That still does not explain why they chose to give us 8 character slots. And if we choose to use up all of those other slots, we're punished by having to go through the MSQ's again. (I wouldn't mind having to level them, I actually like leveling.)

By all intents and purposes, they should have just charged us the price of the game, the $14.95 a month sub, and only give us 1 character slot. Period.

But I get that this is how they made their game. So... /shrug

Aduu Avagnar · **06-05-2015, 11:47 PM**

(06-05-2015, 11:46 PM)Cedric Wrote:
(06-05-2015, 11:40 PM)Nako Wrote: multi classing is very viable outside of the magic classes. I speak as someone who has all of them leveled and reasonably geared....

and I /really/ don't see how its a punishment, they don't want people to have no reason to play, so they artifically elongate the time spent in game by gating stuff through caps and lockouts. It's a business design that is proven to work, and is an inconvenience at worst.

That still does not explain why they chose to give us 8 character slots. And if we choose to use up all of those other slots, we're punished by having to go through the MSQ's again. (I wouldn't mind having to level them, I actually like leveling.)

By all intents and purposes, they should have just charged us the price of the game, the $14.95 a month sub, and only give us 1 character slot. Period.

But I get that this is how they made their game. So... /shrug

There is the option to pay less and only have one character slot per server.

LiadansWhisper · **06-05-2015, 11:51 PM**

(06-05-2015, 12:12 AM)Zyrusticae Wrote: But this conversation really goes nowhere if no one actually mentions exactly what it is that they dislike about playing X class versus playing Y class versus playing another video game entirely. What do you actually like? What does the game fail at? How would another class fix those failures and/or pander more towards your particular sensibilities?

I'm not saying it fails, I'm saying I'm just not interested in it. Â I'm not interested in rotations (DPS), nor does Tanking feel very appealing to me (as it is dominated by various rotations, though it is more "flexible" in that regard than a DPS role is). Â Healing is on-the-fly, with 0 rotations and 100% priority system. Â The spells I choose to use, and how I choose to use them can change from encounter to encounter, sometimes even in subsequent clears of the same encounter because every single encounter has the potential to be radically different from a healing point of view.

See, DPS fight the boss, and tanks fight the boss and the DPS trying to pull threat. Â But Healers fight the boss, the ground, the DPS and the tanks, all at the same time, while generally needing to have to think ahead nearly all of the time as you are dealing with a limited resource and need to have the right things ready at the right time.

Nothing else comes anywhere close to the exhilaration I've felt while healing, and I have played DPS and tanking roles at some point in nearly every game I've played.

I love healing so, so much.Â Laugh

Swashbuckler · **06-05-2015, 11:52 PM**

(06-05-2015, 11:47 PM)Nako Wrote: There is the option to pay less and only have one character slot per server.

I know that, I made mention of it earlier. Great price of $12.95 a month!

That still doesn't explain why they gave us that option, then punish us for taking that option for only two dollars more! Big Grin

Gone. · **06-05-2015, 11:56 PM**

(06-05-2015, 11:40 PM)Nako Wrote: multi classing is very viable outside of the magic classes. I speak as someone who has all of them leveled and reasonably geared....

and I /really/ don't see how its a punishment, they don't want people to have no reason to play, so they artifically elongate the time spent in game by gating stuff through caps and lockouts. It's a business design that is proven to work, and is an inconvenience at worst.

Not exactly. Say you pick up BRD, but you've been a mage at heart. Well, guess what? Now you have to pick up 34 levels of LNC just so you won't run out of TP and have a reasonable burst, all skills you won't be able to use on anything but those two classes. That is hardly an incentive, especially with all the gear nonsense; only soldiery gear is able to be acquired on a reasonable time frame. Everything else is either luck and/or a grind.

And I'm sorry, but if you have to artificially elongate progress in a video game to keep people in it, then the problem lies not with the pacing, but with the core design itself. Ironically, FFXIV doesn't have this problem, so why does SQX bother? Cosmetics and housing are the only real end-game, not a hackneyed treadmill that only a minority will enjoy for a few months before picking up the next new shiny MMO.

Aduu Avagnar · **06-06-2015, 12:05 AM**

(06-05-2015, 11:56 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote:
(06-05-2015, 11:40 PM)Nako Wrote: multi classing is very viable outside of the magic classes. I speak as someone who has all of them leveled and reasonably geared....

and I /really/ don't see how its a punishment, they don't want people to have no reason to play, so they artifically elongate the time spent in game by gating stuff through caps and lockouts. It's a business design that is proven to work, and is an inconvenience at worst.

Not exactly. Say you pick up BRD, but you've been a mage at heart. Well, guess what? Now you have to pick up 34 levels of LNC just so you won't run out of TP and have a reasonable burst, all skills you won't be able to use on anything but those two classes. That is hardly an incentive, especially with all the gear nonsense; only soldiery gear is able to be acquired on a reasonable time frame. Everything else is either luck and/or a grind.

And I'm sorry, but if you have to artificially elongate progress in a video game to keep people in it, then the problem lies not with the pacing, but with the core design itself. Ironically, FFXIV doesn't have this problem, so why does SQX bother? Cosmetics and housing are the only real end-game, not a hackneyed treadmill.

as I said, an inconvenience. I need 34 levels of lancer to do my job well? fair enough, lets go get them. and if you've been a mage? you've likely built up a sizable ammount of gear and soldiery whilst playing that mage. Most of my classes were already decently geared by the moment they hit 50 due to greed rolls.

it is likely there because it is there in WoW, and this game does borrow heavily from that, but I feel diverges in many, many good ways. Also, the real end game is Coil (soon to be alexander), not cosmetics. Unless you are refering to the coil gear.

LiadansWhisper · **06-06-2015, 12:11 AM**

(06-05-2015, 12:14 AM)Addison Wrote: Pretty sure everyone who responded negatively to Zyrusticae's post missed the point. None of you are subscribers for the sole reason that you're a White Mage. Or a Ninja. Or a Warrior. You have other motivators too, and those motivators also fall under "the entire game."

I was talking about this with someone else just a few minutes ago, and this is my stance on it.

I don't have that mindset, no. Â I play the game for a specific role as opposed to a specific class. Â With that said, however, I abjectly refuse to condemn or belittle someone for looking at the game differently.

Not everyone is going to view the game the way I do. Â I have an almost harsh, "You do what is necessary for the raid's success, because that is the goal and your personal enjoyment is secondary in a group scenario." Â In World of Warcraft, I leveled multiple characters of the same class and role (i.e. multiple Priests, Shaman, Druids, etc) for the purposes of class-stacking and split runs with my raid group. Â When I found out that I couldn't play my favorite and preferred spec in our raid because they needed me to play the spec that I quite literally detested, I sucked it up and swapped to that spec and geared for it. Â Because, for me, the success of my raid was way more important.

But that's my mindset, and it won't be everyone's mindset, nor should it be. Â And I do remember how long it took for me to branch out from my original spec and class when I first started playing, and WoW was a much easier game to level in, given that I had all of those shiny quests and didn't have to worry about cross-class abilities. Â If someone only likes WHM and that's the only thing that's keeping them going, that's totally okay. Â It's not my mindset, and it never will be, but they have a right to that mindset. Â It's not stupid, wrong, or even narrowminded. Â Sometimes you just really fall in love with one playstyle and end up hating another (reference: I adore Holy Priest, I detest Disc, but I play them both in WoW. I do know people who refuse to play one spec or another). Â There's nothing wrong with that.

LiadansWhisper · **06-06-2015, 12:18 AM**

(06-05-2015, 11:20 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote:
(06-05-2015, 10:57 PM)Nako Wrote: The thing is, the game is designed to not need alts. The only downside to that is the inventory space. The entire game is built around the fact that you can do everything on one character. I don't see that changing as it is a core feature of the game.

You forgot tome caps, cross-class skills, gear lockouts, etc.

FFXIV punishes you for doing everything on one character to begin with, contrary to how it's advertised. Either have one or the other, you know?

I honestly don't agree with you on this one. Â It's not "punishment." Â It's a way of extending the content, and it's practiced in one form or another by every successful MMO.

(06-05-2015, 11:36 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: Staples in some MMOs. Not that it changes anything just because another game is guilty of the same flaws. It's punishment via tedium, plain and simple.

Either make multi-classing viable on one character outside of the magic classes or give those eight character slots some incentive. It's really not that hard either way.

Staples in every successful, raiding-focused MMO. Â WoW does it. Â SWTOR does it. Â Rift does it. Â Wildstar does it. Â Name me a wildly successful MMO with a serious raiding endgame that doesn't engage in content gating via tomes, raid lockouts, etc?

(06-05-2015, 11:46 PM)Cedric Wrote: That still does not explain why they chose to give us 8 character slots. And if we choose to use up all of those other slots, we're punished by having to go through the MSQ's again. (I wouldn't mind having to level them, I actually like leveling.)

By all intents and purposes, they should have just charged us the price of the game, the $14.95 a month sub, and only give us 1 character slot. Period.

But I get that this is how they made their game. So... /shrug

There are some people who will play enough to fill those slots up and actually level the characters in all the classes. Â I personally think it's insane, but they do it.

I don't really care if I have 8 character slots or not. Â I'm very content with my one character.

(06-05-2015, 11:56 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: Not exactly. Say you pick up BRD, but you've been a mage at heart. Well, guess what? Now you have to pick up 34 levels of LNC just so you won't run out of TP and have a reasonable burst, all skills you won't be able to use on anything but those two classes. That is hardly an incentive, especially with all the gear nonsense; only soldiery gear is able to be acquired on a reasonable time frame. Everything else is either luck and/or a grind.

And I'm sorry, but if you have to artificially elongate progress in a video game to keep people in it, then the problem lies not with the pacing, but with the core design itself. Ironically, FFXIV doesn't have this problem, so why does SQX bother? Cosmetics and housing are the only real end-game, not a hackneyed treadmill that only a minority will enjoy for a few months before picking up the next new shiny MMO.

That's a personal opinion. Â There are many people very devoted to the PvE endgame, and you have no right to denigrate their focus.

What's more, you were complaining earlier that SE won't let us grind Tomes and gear all day erry day, but now you're complaining about having to grind classes to get cross-classes. Â I'm entirely confused as to how you are working this out logically.

BroodingFicus · **06-06-2015, 12:58 AM**

(06-05-2015, 11:20 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote:
(06-05-2015, 10:57 PM)Nako Wrote: The thing is, the game is designed to not need alts. The only downside to that is the inventory space. The entire game is built around the fact that you can do everything on one character. I don't see that changing as it is a core feature of the game.

You forgot tome caps, cross-class skills, gear lockouts, etc.

FFXIV punishes you for doing everything on one character to begin with, contrary to how it's advertised. Either have one or the other, you know?

I do understand what you are saying here. If someone has only one character and reaches the tome cap they are done for that week until it resets even though they may have multiple classes they need to grind for. On the other hand if that person has say a WHM as one character and a Pally as another, they can finish one and then go grind out the other. Same thing goes for gear lockouts. Its the idea of keeping someone around by giving them something to do vs keeping them around because you restricted their progress on purpose and now they have to sit on their hands for a week. All MMO's have lockouts etc...at least all the ones I've ever played. However none of the other MMO's, all of which do contain the same lockouts, hated on alts so viciously as FFXIV and I think that makes these things that are generally excused as staples suddenly much more irritating because we are noticing them in an unpleasant way.Â

Personally it seems like the new job gating is just another example of FFXIV discouraging alts but their message has never been clear. Please do not make additional characters. We don't like it. But here is a new race...and you don't get more inventory even with all these classes to level and all the gear you have to carry around...and your tome cap is the same for all your classes...so are your gear lockouts. But please...don't make more characters...even though you are paying us for 8 slots. There are very real benefits to having multiple characters aside from just looks or RP.Â

In the same way that it is personal choice which class/job you play or do not, it really should also be player choice if they wish to put all their proverbial eggs in one basket or not. Especially since square gave us SO MANY EGGS and is now offering shinier baskets. I suppose you can make the choice but it is frowned upon by making it a chore. It is the same chore that new and returning players will face if they wish to pick up new classes due to the restrictions set in place so maybe someone will take notice one day. Probably not but we can dream.

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Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice?

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