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McBeefâ„¢ · **06-16-2015, 12:28 PM**

I felt the plot of FFVII made sense when I played it as a 3rd grader, I still felt it made sense playing it a few years ago.

I felt Crisis Core made way less sense by comparison.

Sephiroth's descent into madness and anger is pretty well played out. He has a psychotic break at discovering his past, and then is further corrupted by jenovah. It's not that complicated of a story (which makes it odd by FF standards) but there was no need to shoehorn in other motivations.

Gegenji · **06-16-2015, 12:29 PM**

(06-16-2015, 12:23 PM)Aaron Wrote: That was before Cloud threw him in the reactor. That was the turning point.Â

If Genesis never existed (taking into account the games timeline not the way they were implemented IRL). Sephiroth most likely wouldn't have went all "Mother I will bring us to the promised land"

Except he wasn't there in the original and it still happened. The only people at the Nibelheim reactor were Sephiroth, Cloud, Zack, and Tifa. There was another nameless grunt, but he died when the bridge collapsed. Sephiroth jumped to the conclusion - albeit correctly - that he might be like the monstrosities in the capsules on his own. He didn't need a Gackt insert to lay it all out for him and somehow know all about Hojo's dirty secret.

EDIT: Also, I've heard plenty of FF7 fans who also viciously hated how Gackt was forced in to be the explanation for everything. They enjoyed the game, mind, but cite Genesis as being the worst part of Crisis Core.

Manari · **06-16-2015, 12:35 PM**

(06-16-2015, 12:29 PM)Gegenji Wrote: Except he wasn't there in the original and it still happened. The only people at the Nibelheim reactor were Sephiroth, Cloud, Zack, and Tifa. There was another nameless grunt, but he died when the bridge collapsed. Sephiroth jumped to the conclusion - albeit correctly - that he might be like the monstrosities in the capsules on his own. He didn't need a Gackt insert to lay it all out for him and somehow know all about Hojo's dirty secret.

This is exactly how I feel. I didn't play Crisis Core because I wanted to be force-fed some new J-pop character who by his very nature would have to be completely inconsequential to the main story in FF7 or else they would be retconning. I played it because Zack didn't get much screen time or back story and I wanted to know more about him and his life, since everything you think Could is was actually Zack anyway. Angel I could almost forgive, he didn't bother me too much. Though I didn't like how the iconic buster sword was originally his. Not that I really ever liked that sword design to begin with, but I digress.

I hated every scene in Crisis Core that contained Genesis and his terrible dialog and forced motivations. He was completely unneeded.

Aaron · **06-16-2015, 12:35 PM**

(06-16-2015, 12:29 PM)Gegenji Wrote:
(06-16-2015, 12:23 PM)Aaron Wrote: That was before Cloud threw him in the reactor. That was the turning point.Â

If Genesis never existed (taking into account the games timeline not the way they were implemented IRL). Sephiroth most likely wouldn't have went all "Mother I will bring us to the promised land"

Except he wasn't there in the original and it still happened. The only people at the Nibelheim reactor were Sephiroth, Cloud, Zack, and Tifa. There was another nameless grunt, but he died when the bridge collapsed. Sephiroth jumped to the conclusion - albeit correctly - that he might be like the monstrosities in the capsules on his own. He didn't need a Gackt insert to lay it all out for him and somehow know all about Hojo's dirty secret.

This is where you're missing the entire point.

From Genesis wiki

"His words, combined with what Sephiroth learns about his origins in theÂ Shinra Manor, spark his descent into madness, andÂ he burns Nibelheim to the groundÂ and is seemingly killed by Cloud within the reactor."

Genesis /led/ sephiroth to read those notes and all that in VII

SE didn't just ADD him for no reason. They made him the catalyst for Sephiroths decent into madness.

CC ties in perfectly with VII. And as I said. Genesis was the real reason Sephiroth went mad.

McBeefâ„¢ · **06-16-2015, 12:43 PM**

(06-16-2015, 12:35 PM)Aaron Wrote:
(06-16-2015, 12:29 PM)Gegenji Wrote:
(06-16-2015, 12:23 PM)Aaron Wrote: That was before Cloud threw him in the reactor. That was the turning point.Â

If Genesis never existed (taking into account the games timeline not the way they were implemented IRL). Sephiroth most likely wouldn't have went all "Mother I will bring us to the promised land"

Except he wasn't there in the original and it still happened. The only people at the Nibelheim reactor were Sephiroth, Cloud, Zack, and Tifa. There was another nameless grunt, but he died when the bridge collapsed. Sephiroth jumped to the conclusion - albeit correctly - that he might be like the monstrosities in the capsules on his own. He didn't need a Gackt insert to lay it all out for him and somehow know all about Hojo's dirty secret.
This is where you're missing the entire point.

From Genesis wiki

"His words, combined with what Sephiroth learns about his origins in theÂ Shinra Manor, spark his descent into madness, andÂ he burns Nibelheim to the groundÂ and is seemingly killed by Cloud within the reactor."

Genesis /led/ sephiroth to read those notes and all that in VII

SE didn't just ADD him for no reason. They made him the catalyst for Sephiroths decent into madness.

CC ties in perfectly with VII. And as I said. Genesis was the real reason Sephiroth went mad.

I mean you could remake Romeo and Juliet, and add a new character makes the two fall in love. Like some person who just talks about how great Juliet is to Romeo. But you don't need to because the story already makes sense.

The story in FFVII already made sense.

You can argue that maybe it makes /more/ sense now, but in the years leading up to crisis core, people were never going 'WHY DID HE READ THE NOTES'

'WHY, OH WHY'

'CLEARLY WE NEED A J-ROCK SINGER TO BE ADDED TO THE STORY TO EXPLAIN THIS INCONSISTENCY'

Cato · **06-16-2015, 12:44 PM**

I'll be honest and say that I didn't like Crisis Core. It fleshed out Zack fairly well but FF7 highlighted everything that was important about Sephiroth's descent into madness without the need for all the awkwardness that came with suddenly adding new 'important' characters who didn't show up in the original game at all.

Aaron · **06-16-2015, 12:49 PM**

(06-16-2015, 12:43 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(06-16-2015, 12:35 PM)Aaron Wrote:
(06-16-2015, 12:29 PM)Gegenji Wrote:
(06-16-2015, 12:23 PM)Aaron Wrote: That was before Cloud threw him in the reactor. That was the turning point.Â

If Genesis never existed (taking into account the games timeline not the way they were implemented IRL). Sephiroth most likely wouldn't have went all "Mother I will bring us to the promised land"

Except he wasn't there in the original and it still happened. The only people at the Nibelheim reactor were Sephiroth, Cloud, Zack, and Tifa. There was another nameless grunt, but he died when the bridge collapsed. Sephiroth jumped to the conclusion - albeit correctly - that he might be like the monstrosities in the capsules on his own. He didn't need a Gackt insert to lay it all out for him and somehow know all about Hojo's dirty secret.
This is where you're missing the entire point.

From Genesis wiki

"His words, combined with what Sephiroth learns about his origins in theÂ Shinra Manor, spark his descent into madness, andÂ he burns Nibelheim to the groundÂ and is seemingly killed by Cloud within the reactor."

Genesis /led/ sephiroth to read those notes and all that in VII

SE didn't just ADD him for no reason. They made him the catalyst for Sephiroths decent into madness.

CC ties in perfectly with VII. And as I said. Genesis was the real reason Sephiroth went mad.

I mean you could remake Romeo and Juliet, and add a new character makes the two fall in love. Like some person who just talks about how great Juliet is to Romeo. But you don't need to because the story already makes sense.

The story in FFVII already made sense.

You can argue that maybe it makes /more/ sense now, but in the years leading up to crisis core, people were never going 'WHY DID HE READ THE NOTES'

'WHY, OH WHY'

'CLEARLY WE NEED A J-ROCK SINGER TO BE ADDED TO THE STORY TO EXPLAIN THIS INCONSISTENCY'

I don't deny the main purpose of CC was to draw in money. What confuses me is why people assume CC was just thrown in for money because in actuality they tied it in well with the original VII. Its not perfect but its good enough. Nothing in the lore was drastically altered since the original VII had a deal of vagueness anyway.

And good things came out of it. Got to know Zack as more than just that "black haired dude in my mind", got to see how Sephiroth was before he went crazy. Got more of Cloud and Aeris before all hell went through and so on and so on.

Also I liked Genesis as a character but it seems that I'm alone in that regard.

Gegenji · **06-16-2015, 12:49 PM**

(06-16-2015, 12:35 PM)Aaron Wrote: Genesis /led/ sephiroth to read those notes and all that in VII

SE didn't just ADD him for no reason. They made him the catalyst for Sephiroths decent into madness.

I never said he was added for no reason. I am saying there was no reason to add him. There's a big difference there.

In the core FF7 game, Sephiroth realizes on his own that something's amiss when they find those capsules in the reactor. He's different, but he doesn't know exactly why. That pushes him to look into the research and notes at the building where ShinRa's people were stationed. He finds out that he isn't truly human - he's created using the cells of Jenova, who is believed to be of the ancient Cetra. Those who continued to wander instead of settling and becoming the current people of the Planet.

Those who gave up the Cetra way of life, turned against his mother's people and left them to die out. He decides to be the avenger of the Cetra, using his power to make those who settled pay. He sets fire to Nibelheim, kills Tifa's father, and heads back to the reactor to rescue his mother from her confinement.

Tifa chases after him, and Cloud and Zack chase after Tifa. Tifa is struck down, as is Zack. Cloud, seeing his childhood friend and his buddy laid low, takes up Zack's sword and challenges Sephiroth for taking everything from him. They fight and, despite getting run through, Cloud grabs hold of the Masamune and flings Sephiroth into the core of the reactor.

So, a self-appointed avenger of an ancient people was not only defeated by the child of the race he felt betrayed the Cetra. But it wasn't even someone bolstered with Mako. It was a SOLDIER failure. Someone who, in his eyes, wasn't even worth paying attention to. That's who nearly killed him.

Genesis wasn't needed for any of that. He just doesn't add anything that wasn't already going to happen. All it does is try to take the agency away from Sephiroth and give it to Genesis. He couldn't figure out something was wrong on his own - despite killing a Dragon basically by himself. He wouldn't know to go do the research that would lead to the realization - despite knowing the mansion (referred to as Shinra Mansion!) was being used for ShinRa research.

He had to be told. Directed. By, what seems to me, to be little more an a fan-insert. I'm not the biggest fan of Sephiroth - as mentioned, I feel he's a knockoff Kefka with mommy issues - but I still feel that the addition of Genesis as a character cheapens him, takes away some of his agency, and ultimately makes him a less effective villain because Genesis is suddenly the mastermind behind everything.

As you said, it was cool that Zack got fleshed out more and we got a chance to see Sephiroth before he went mad - I can agree on that, it's nice to have more context on how they both were before things went so wrong. And I've heard the gameplay for Crisis Core itself was pretty neat - with the roulette Limit Breaks and stuff. But I still cleave to the opinion that Genesis was an unnecessary addition and should not have been included.

Aaron · **06-16-2015, 12:52 PM**

(06-16-2015, 12:49 PM)Gegenji Wrote:
(06-16-2015, 12:35 PM)Aaron Wrote: Genesis /led/ sephiroth to read those notes and all that in VII

SE didn't just ADD him for no reason. They made him the catalyst for Sephiroths decent into madness.

I never said he was added for no reason. I am saying there was no reason to add him. There's a big difference there.

In the core FF7 game, he realizes on his own that something's amiss when they find those capsules in the reactor. He's different, but he doesn't know exactly why. That pushes him to look into the research and notes at the building where ShinRa's people were stationed. He finds out that he isn't truly human - he's created using the cells of Jenova, who is believed to be of the ancient Cetra. Those who continued to wander instead of settling and becoming the current people of the Planet.

Those who gave up the Cetra way of life, turned against his mother's people and left them to die out. He decides to be the avenger of the Cetra, using his power to make those who settled pay. He sets fire to Nibelheim, kills Tifa's father, and heads back to the reactor to rescue his mother from her confinement.

Tifa chases after him, and Cloud and Zack chase after Tifa. Tifa is struck down, as is Zack. Cloud, seeing his childhood friend and his buddy laid low, takes up Zack's sword and challenges Sephiroth for taking everything from him. They fight and, despite getting run through, Cloud grabs hold of the Masamune and flings Sephiroth into the core of the reactor.

So, a self-appointed avenger of an ancient people was not only defeated by the child of the race he felt betrayed the Cetra. But it wasn't even someone bolstered with Mako. It was a SOLDIER failure. Someone who, in his eyes, wasn't even worth paying attention to. That's who nearly killed him.

Genesis wasn't needed for any of that. He just doesn't add anything that wasn't already going to happen. All it does is try to take the agency away from Sephiroth and give it to Genesis. He couldn't figure out something was wrong on his own - despite killing a Dragon basically by himself. He wouldn't know to go do the research that would lead to the realization - despite knowing the mansion was being used for ShinRa research.

He had to be told. Directed. By, what seems to me, to be little more an a fan-insert. I'm not the biggest fan of Sephiroth - as mentioned, I feel he's a knockoff Kefka with mommy issues - but I still feel that the addition of Genesis as a character cheapens him and makes him a less effective villain.

Seohiroth acted way different from Kefka IMO.

Sure, genesis probably didn't need to be added. But it didn't really hurt anything. That's the point I'm trying to get across.

Genesis rekt Sephiroths mind -> Sephiroth eventual goes to Shinra Manor to verify -> Sephiroth finds out that Genesis was right -> Sephiroth proceeds to destroy everything. -> Cloud stops him

Que FF VII

I hardly see the issue of adding Genesis. If anything he also shaped how Zack was before he died too.

Gegenji · **06-16-2015, 01:01 PM**

(06-16-2015, 12:52 PM)Aaron Wrote: But it didn't really hurt anything. That's the point I'm trying to get across.

Genesis rekt Sephiroths mind -> Sephiroth eventual goes to Shinra Manor to verify -> Sephiroth finds out that Genesis was right -> Sephiroth proceeds to destroy everything. -> Cloud stops him

And I'm postulating that it does hurt the story, because it takes away Sephiroth's agency and self-afflicted spiral into insanity in the search for the truth of his past. He didn't need Genesis to "rek" his mind - he had enough reason to question and seek answers on his own. The entire flashback scene in the original game is rife with him being horribly awkward with how normal people do things - even questioning why he knows so little about his own family. The seeds were already there without Genesis adding the fertilizer.

EDIT:

(06-16-2015, 12:52 PM)Aaron Wrote: Seohiroth acted way different from Kefka IMO.

Also, I compare Sephiroth to Kefka in the vaguest of senses. Both are experimental super-soldiers (SOLDIER vs. Magitek) that end up going nutso and killing their superior (President ShinRa vs. Gestahl) before becoming the main villain of the story and seeking to destroy the world (Meteor vs. Warring Triad). Safer Sephiroth even seems to be taking the "angelic destroyer" angle from Kefka's final form.

Aaron · **06-16-2015, 01:04 PM**

(06-16-2015, 01:01 PM)Gegenji Wrote:
(06-16-2015, 12:52 PM)Aaron Wrote: But it didn't really hurt anything. That's the point I'm trying to get across.

Genesis rekt Sephiroths mind -> Sephiroth eventual goes to Shinra Manor to verify -> Sephiroth finds out that Genesis was right -> Sephiroth proceeds to destroy everything. -> Cloud stops him

And I'm postulating that it does hurt the story, because it takes away Sephiroth's agency and self-afflicted spiral into insanity in the search for the truth of his past. He didn't need Genesis to "rek" his mind - he had enough reason to question and seek answers on his own. The entire flashback scene in the original game is rife with him being horribly awkward with how normal people do things - even questioning why he knows so little about his own family. The seeds were already there without Genesis adding the fertilizer.

EDIT:

(06-16-2015, 12:52 PM)Aaron Wrote: Seohiroth acted way different from Kefka IMO.

Also, I compare Sephiroth to Kefka in the vaguest of senses. Both are experimental super-soldiers (SOLDIER vs. Magitek) that end up going nutso and killing their superior (President ShinRa vs. Gestahl) before becoming the main villain of the story and seeking to destroy the world (Meteor vs. Warring Triad).

Ummm, in CC Sephiroth was awkward about how normal people do things as you say without Genesis even talking.

Genesis solely influenced Sephiroth more into thinking he was a monster. He didn't plant anything. Sephiroth went to "read those notes on his own" after that incident.

Take everything into account. If that didn't happen Sephiroth most likely wouldn't have went haywire.

It doesn't hurt anything. Genesis just gave Seph that extra push.

Gegenji · **06-16-2015, 01:10 PM**

(06-16-2015, 01:04 PM)Aaron Wrote: Ummm, in CC Sephiroth was awkward about how normal people do things as you say without Genesis even talking.

Genesis solely influenced Sephiroth more into thinking he was a monster. He didn't plant anything. Sephiroth went to "read those notes on his own" after that incident.

It doesn't hurt anything. Genesis just gave Seph that extra push.

Right, so there was already stuff in place to make Sephiroth question things without Genesis' input - why is he so different from everyone else? He did not need the extra push, and I believe implying that he did hurts him as a character. Again, this is personal opinion on the matter.

And we know Sephiroth would've gone haywire because that is what happened in the original game, without any need for clarification. He managed to go crazy just fine on his own. Without Genesis' help. He's a self-made villain, and adding Genesis takes that away from him.

Aaron · **06-16-2015, 01:11 PM**

(06-16-2015, 01:10 PM)Gegenji Wrote:
(06-16-2015, 01:04 PM)Aaron Wrote: Ummm, in CC Sephiroth was awkward about how normal people do things as you say without Genesis even talking.

Genesis solely influenced Sephiroth more into thinking he was a monster. He didn't plant anything. Sephiroth went to "read those notes on his own" after that incident.

It doesn't hurt anything. Genesis just gave Seph that extra push.

Right, so there was already stuff in place to make Sephiroth question things without Genesis' input - why is he so different from everyone else? He did not need the extra push, and I believe implying that he did hurts him as a character. Again, this is personal opinion on the matter.

That's a pretty kinda small reason not to like a game.

I never heard of people not liking CC because Sephiroth didn't go mad on his own.

But w/e I guess.

Gegenji · **06-16-2015, 01:15 PM**

I never said I didn't like the game. As I mentioned, it's neat to see more about Zack - since Cloud basically took up his mantle and he had a history with Aeris before the game start. And seeing Sephiroth and how he acted before it all went south is pretty cool (further cementing how out of place he felt with the rest of SOLDIER). And the gameplay and roulette Limit Breaks were also really interesting.

The issue I have isn't with the game as a whole. The issue I have is with the unnecessary inclusion of the Gackt-fan insert. Everything else is fine. I just do not like Genesis.

TheLastCandle · **06-16-2015, 01:17 PM**

I don't understand why you keep saying things like this, Aaron: "If that didn't happen Sephiroth most likely wouldn't have went haywire."

Are you suggesting that the Gackt character's motivation was in the scenario writers' minds as they were developing FF7 from 1994-1997? Because before Crisis Core was written, Sephiroth DID go haywire without Genesis' influence.

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