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Kellach Woods · **07-20-2015, 06:22 AM**

Honestly I used to be more in the whatever camp but it's one of those things I feel that you have to earn through fantastic RP.

I'm far more willing to accept it if the story's good - if it's just "i got turned into a catboi to get turnt" then yeah no.

It also depends on what you do with it - some people will use Fantasia "IC" to justify a change (character was glamoured and undoes the glamour, etc.) and others will explicitly refer to the potion.

One of the things that the potion mentions is not so much how expensive it is but how rare it is. Chances are there is no one in Eorzea that can actually make these potions.

If the story's good, makes sense and doesn't outright contradict lore, I'm down.

Parvacake · **07-20-2015, 06:27 AM**

My opinion?Â

Shouldn't matter if the person is glamoured or has taken a fantasia. The end result is the same: appearances get changed. If the end result gets accepted why should the means matter?

Thats like me getting mad at restaurant for giving me the exact same burger that looks and tastes the same but is prepared with a different cooking method each time. Still tastes good. End result is the same. Num.

Cato · **07-20-2015, 08:28 AM**

(07-20-2015, 06:27 AM)Lililove Wrote: My opinion?Â

Shouldn't matter if the person is glamoured or has taken a fantasia. The end result is the same: appearances get changed. If the end result gets accepted why should the means matter?

Thats like me getting mad at restaurant for giving me the exact same burger that looks and tastes the same but is prepared with a different cooking method each time. Still tastes good. End result is the same. Num.

Some role-players enjoy consistency and plausibility. Could a decent reason be given as to why a particular character changed from a hyur to a miqo'te? Maybe - but in my experience that usually isn't the case.

Perhaps it's an unpopular opinion but I've found the role-players who do change their character's race IC to be rather unreliable. As harsh as it may sound I consider them to be rather indecisive and at risk of completely abandoning an established plot in favour of doing whatever they please on a whim. Ironically quite a few end up changing back a few days/weeks later when the novelty wears off.

Are they free to do whatever they like? Sure! Though it should be understandable why some of us are reluctant to indulge on their behalf.

Dante Abigor · **07-20-2015, 10:34 AM**

(07-20-2015, 06:27 AM)Lililove Wrote: My opinion?Â

Shouldn't matter if the person is glamoured or has taken a fantasia. The end result is the same: appearances get changed. If the end result gets accepted why should the means matter?

Thats like me getting mad at restaurant for giving me the exact same burger that looks and tastes the same but is prepared with a different cooking method each time. Still tastes good. End result is the same. Num.

Using your example, sure the end result is the same. But if that method of cooking affected you in a negative way, like say....slamming your face on the table and using your cheeks as a makeshift plate or skillet, you wouldnt be too happy with that method of cooking, even if it did bring you to the same result.

Its essentially the same with Rp. By doing something that blatantly requires everyone else around you to just be like "Oh ok no probs" or "Thas cool" or anything other than freaking the Hell out after you effectively shattered their world with your complete altering of their understanding of it, then its not completely mind blowing to be met with some kind of resistance. The entire issue of lore aside, if you applied the exact same thing in real life the results would probably be the same.

Your best friend is now a dog. How!? Wtf happened!? "Oh, I was captured by aliens."

See how that might make someones head explode?

If someone wanted a character change that badly but couldnt be bothered to like think of a reasonable way or at least believable story for how said change happened then its not a BAD thing, but its not really fair to expect people who knew your character before or an established way of how you RP to want to be around it any longer either.

Also this is not aimed at anyone in a negative light, just wanted to respond to the post.

Manari · **07-20-2015, 10:50 AM**

Being able to completely and totally change your appearance, race, and gender instantly is completely immersion breaking, even in a high fantasy setting such as this. I don't really care what people do with their characters, but sometimes one person's whim to be the fancy new race will completely ruin the RP they have previously built up with all those characters they interact with if they insist on trying to somehow play the same character after the change.

Tumensuns · **07-20-2015, 01:06 PM**

(07-20-2015, 06:27 AM)Lililove Wrote: My opinion?Â

Shouldn't matter if the person is glamoured or has taken a fantasia. The end result is the same: appearances get changed. If the end result gets accepted why should the means matter?

Thats like me getting mad at restaurant for giving me the exact same burger that looks and tastes the same but is prepared with a different cooking method each time. Still tastes good. End result is the same. Num.

I think it'd be more like ordering a hamburger and being given a salad instead, but told it's a hamburger and need to address it as hamburger from now on, or I'm being a meany poopy-face.

Shoshopu · **07-20-2015, 01:22 PM**

(07-20-2015, 01:06 PM)Tumensuns Wrote:
(07-20-2015, 06:27 AM)Lililove Wrote: My opinion?Â

Shouldn't matter if the person is glamoured or has taken a fantasia. The end result is the same: appearances get changed. If the end result gets accepted why should the means matter?

Thats like me getting mad at restaurant for giving me the exact same burger that looks and tastes the same but is prepared with a different cooking method each time. Still tastes good. End result is the same. Num.

I think it'd be more like ordering a hamburger and being given a salad instead, but told it's a hamburger and need to address it as hamburger from now on, or I'm being a meany poopy-face.

How's that analogy work? You don't "order" other peoples' characters to be a certain thing, in advance. If you're just seeing them for the first time, why does it matter to you (or your character) what their past is, is the point Lili is trying to make, I think.

I believe Lili's analogy is assuming you've never met the character before. Is yours assuming you know the character already? Like they're already in your RP circle and they've changed? Because that's certainly not going to be true of every character yours will meet who's had a fantasia affect their life (if in fact they meet one at all!)

I guess I'm arguing semantics now but confusing analogies are a pet peeve of mine in discussions like this :B

Lilia Lia · **07-20-2015, 02:16 PM**

Confusing analogies are the worst.Â It's like you're juggling oranges and all of a sudden, your mom shows up and it's your first day of school.

Tumensuns · **07-20-2015, 02:20 PM**

(07-20-2015, 01:22 PM)Shoshopu Wrote:
(07-20-2015, 01:06 PM)Tumensuns Wrote:
(07-20-2015, 06:27 AM)Lililove Wrote: My opinion?Â

Shouldn't matter if the person is glamoured or has taken a fantasia. The end result is the same: appearances get changed. If the end result gets accepted why should the means matter?

Thats like me getting mad at restaurant for giving me the exact same burger that looks and tastes the same but is prepared with a different cooking method each time. Still tastes good. End result is the same. Num.

I think it'd be more like ordering a hamburger and being given a salad instead, but told it's a hamburger and need to address it as hamburger from now on, or I'm being a meany poopy-face.

How's that analogy work? You don't "order" other peoples' characters to be a certain thing, in advance. If you're just seeing them for the first time, why does it matter to you (or your character) what their past is, is the point Lili is trying to make, I think.

I believe Lili's analogy is assuming you've never met the character before. Is yours assuming you know the character already? Like they're already in your RP circle and they've changed? Because that's certainly not going to be true of every character yours will meet who's had a fantasia affect their life (if in fact they meet one at all!)

I guess I'm arguing semantics now but confusing analogies are a pet peeve of mine in discussions like this :B

I think you're over thinking it.Â

I'm used to seeing hamburger as he is, a beef patty between bread, but now hamburger is a bunch of green stuff, and telling me to call him hamburger because reasons.

Shoshopu · **07-20-2015, 02:27 PM**

(07-20-2015, 02:20 PM)Tumensuns Wrote: I think you're over thinking it.Â

I'm used to seeing hamburger as he is, a beef patty between bread, but now hamburger is a bunch of green stuff, and telling me to call him hamburger because reasons.

Then I repeat again, since your analogy (which you insisted was more true to actuality than the other one you originally quoted) does indeed assume you've met the character before, and now they're suddenly different: That's not going to be true of every Fantasia'd character you meet, unless you've literally met every Fantasia'd character ever. Some of them you might not even know that's how they got to where they are, so does that really affect you at all? Or do you only care about Fantasia usage when it's affected your personal circle?

Cato · **07-20-2015, 02:44 PM**

I'm a little confused as to what, exactly, is actually being discussed at this point. It shouldn't be terribly difficult for people to accept that when someone chooses to embrace a particularly controversial storytelling device then not everybody is going to smile and accept it readily.

Nobody is demanding that people stop doing it. They're simply explaining why they, themselves, don't really have any interest in going along with it.

I don't think there's much to be accomplished from reading too deeply into analogies especially when different people can walk away with completely different interpretations.

Tumensuns · **07-20-2015, 02:45 PM**

(07-20-2015, 02:27 PM)Shoshopu Wrote:
(07-20-2015, 02:20 PM)Tumensuns Wrote: I think you're over thinking it.Â

I'm used to seeing hamburger as he is, a beef patty between bread, but now hamburger is a bunch of green stuff, and telling me to call him hamburger because reasons.

Then I repeat again, since your analogy (which you insisted was more true to actuality than the other one you originally quoted) does indeed assume you've met the character before, and now they're suddenly different: That's not going to be true of every Fantasia'd character you meet, unless you've literally met every Fantasia'd character ever. Some of them you might not even know that's how they got to where they are, so does that really affect you at all? Or do you only care about Fantasia usage when it's affected your personal circle?

That'd be assuming I know said hamburger, before they suddenly were a salad.

Now, if a salad walked up to me and said "hey at one point I was a hamburger", I'm probably going to think they're crazy.

Which ICly, I have done in the past to people who do this, and then they get mad at me OOCly because I'm not forcing my character to accept the absurd notion that this bowl of green lettuce and red tomatoes was once a juicy meat patty between two toasty buns.

Lilia Lia · **07-20-2015, 02:57 PM**

(07-20-2015, 02:27 PM)Shoshopu Wrote: Some of them you might not even know that's how they got to where they are, so does that really affect you at all? Or do you only care about Fantasia usage when it's affected your personal circle?

I should mention that a lot of players treat their IC Fantasia as a significant part of their character's history.Â You don't find out about it right away but as you get to know them they come out with it, or a friend of theirs casually says something like "that was back when he was a Lalafell" and all of a sudden you have to respond to this.Â The reason it's immersion breaking is because your character is being asked to accept something that you personally don't think is plausible from a lore perspective.Â It'd be like if someone tried to pretend that the Calamity never happened, or wanted to tell you that they were the Warrior of Light, or that they are the blood descendent of Bahamut.Â

It's annoying for the same reason that Godmodding is annoying.Â A person is taking their RP out of the territory of "My character says or does this," and into the territory of "I am telling you that this is how the world works."Â All of a sudden you can't really RP with each other because you're both playing by different rules.Â If you tell me that your character can fly by flapping his arms really fast, and my character expresses disbelief, and then you proceed to emote your character flying around the sky with the greatest of ease, then I think I'm justified in finding that obnoxious.Â My character, however, would find it fascinating and would tell everyone she knew about it.Â I don't really want to have to do this, so I have to break character and treat it as mundane or uninteresting in order to continue to RP with that person about things other than their magical flying power.

Shoshopu · **07-20-2015, 03:57 PM**

(07-20-2015, 02:45 PM)Tumensuns Wrote: That'd be assuming I know said hamburger, before they suddenly were a salad.

Now, if a salad walked up to me and said "hey at one point I was a hamburger", I'm probably going to think they're crazy.

Which ICly, I have done in the past to people who do this, and then they get mad at me OOCly because I'm not forcing my character to accept the absurd notion that this bowl of green lettuce and red tomatoes was once a juicy meat patty between two toasty buns.

(07-20-2015, 02:57 PM)Lilia Lia Wrote:
(07-20-2015, 02:27 PM)Shoshopu Wrote: Some of them you might not even know that's how they got to where they are, so does that really affect you at all? Or do you only care about Fantasia usage when it's affected your personal circle?

I should mention that a lot of players treat their IC Fantasia as a significant part of their character's history.Â You don't find out about it right away but as you get to know them they come out with it, or a friend of theirs casually says something like "that was back when he was a Lalafell" and all of a sudden you have to respond to this.Â The reason it's immersion breaking is because your character is being asked to accept something that you personally don't think is plausible from a lore perspective.Â It'd be like if someone tried to pretend that the Calamity never happened, or wanted to tell you that they were the Warrior of Light, or that they are the blood descendent of Bahamut.Â

It's annoying for the same reason that Godmodding is annoying.Â A person is taking their RP out of the territory of "My character says or does this," and into the territory of "I am telling you that this is how the world works."Â All of a sudden you can't really RP with each other because you're both playing by different rules.Â If you tell me that your character can fly by flapping his arms really fast, and my character expresses disbelief, and then you proceed to emote your character flying around the sky with the greatest of ease, then I think I'm justified in finding that obnoxious.Â My character, however, would find it fascinating and would tell everyone she knew about it.Â I don't really want to have to do this, so I have to break character and treat it as mundane or uninteresting in order to continue to RP with that person about things other than their magical flying power.

Fair points all. I just like being clear on everything 'cause I'm equal parts curious, nosy and semantic. :B

(07-20-2015, 02:44 PM)Graeham Wrote: I'm a little confused as to what, exactly, is actually being discussed at this point. It shouldn't be terribly difficult for people to accept that when someone chooses to embrace a particularly controversial storytelling device then not everybody is going to smile and accept it readily.

Nobody is demanding that people stop doing it. They're simply explaining why they, themselves, don't really have any interest in going along with it.

I don't think there's much to be accomplished from reading too deeply into analogies especially when different people can walk away with completely different interpretations.

To clear up your confusion, I was just asking Tumensuns for more clarification on what his opinion was because it was unclear at first. Smile

I didn't think there was anything wrong with that, and I sure didn't mean to come off as trying to make Tumensuns accept that other people do it.

Parvacake · **07-20-2015, 11:06 PM**

Home so I could read through things a little easier then on my phone. First off...

My analogy wasn't meant to be taken literally or be super dissected. The essential message was simply that, in the end, the results are the same with just a slight difference to the method. The end result is accepted, but for me (personally) bickering over how that is achieved just causes more issues then not. By all means, people are welcome to their differing opinions! But to be dickish to those that use a method you (using 'you' in the broad, general sense) don't agree with is unacceptable. Period. It takes absolutely no effort to be a polite human being and let the person know that, while you may not agree with it, if it would be alright if you/your character overlooked it due to the conflict in lore.

Boom. There. Finished. Not many people would argue with that polite approach and most can walk away happily.

Now, I will be the first to admit as an RPer I have used fantasias ICly. Why? Because when they first became readily available over a year ago, I was one of those that looked it over and was like 'Hmmm...IC or not IC?'. Given everything is very much a fantasy setting with dragons that can make you understand their language, a superior but now mostly extinct race that were super scientific geniuses who created throngs of advanced tech, experiments, etc. (the Allagans) and a whole list of other things...well, the usage of a potion that can change your appearance seems super miniscule to me.

In the end? If you can find a good way to explain it ICly, go for it! But just be prepared that not everyone will agree too it and learn to shrug it off if someone gets super 'rawr, grawr, shaaaaame' about it. There's plenty of people who will accept it with good IC reasoning over those who won't.

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