RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes

Leggerless · **01-11-2016, 02:30 AM**

(01-10-2016, 09:53 PM)Oli! Wrote: I think it's about time we started getting specific examples if we're actually going to take a closer look at what the OP raises.

Specific examples as in linkable examples?

Nevertheless, we're probably going to see a few more replies responding to the sensationalist material that is now OP's post before anything tangible shows up.

For now, enjoy the thread and grab some popcorn. It'll be a long night for this one.

P.S. @Aaron: RPC quality is down. Less than 20 chararcters with spaces.

LiadansWhisper · **01-11-2016, 02:31 AM**

I really can't speak to the raiders in this game, since I don't raid in this game (no time, no inclination).

I can, however, speak from the perspective of someone who has raided in other MMOs, both casually and hardcore.

Raiders really don't give a shit whether you RP or not. They might think that you're weird. They might log over to harass you when their server is down. But they really don't give a shit one way or another.

They don't care if you RP. They don't care if you raid. They don't care if you do nothing but dungeons all day long. They don't care if all you do is pet battles, or crafting, or sticking your thumb up your butt.

They really, really don't care.

I mean, unless they suck at raiding. Then they might care because they literally don't have anything better to do because they can't down the latest boss in the latest raid because they suck. So they need to occupy themselves with something else, which in this case would seem to be bitching about things other people are doing that have nothing to do with them.

Any raider that gives two shits about the fact that someone else wholly unconnected to them is doing something they don't personally want to do is a moron who probably regularly gibs themselves in Void Ark.

Don't listen to morons. Be happy. Thumbsup

Edited to Add: Addendum: The only time any raider worth their salt is going to give a single shit about what you are doing is when you're in the raid with them. Then, and only then, will they give a shit, because then, and only then, what you have done or are doing will directly affect their enjoyment and experience. This is the only time a skilled raider will care. Generally, they are way too busy with raid things, and accumulating things you need for raiding, to care any other time.

...this is also why many of them refuse to pug.

Aaron · **01-11-2016, 02:38 AM**

(01-11-2016, 02:30 AM)Leggerless Wrote:
(01-10-2016, 09:53 PM)Oli! Wrote: I think it's about time we started getting specific examples if we're actually going to take a closer look at what the OP raises.

Specific examples as in linkable examples?

Nevertheless, we're probably going to see a few more replies responding to the sensationalist material that is now OP's post before anything tangible shows up.

For now, enjoy the thread and grab some popcorn. It'll be a long night for this one.

P.S. @Aaron: RPC quality is down. Less than 20 chararcters with spaces.

Thank you!

Yssen · **01-11-2016, 02:58 AM**

(01-11-2016, 01:06 AM)ArmachiA Wrote:
(01-10-2016, 11:59 PM)Yssen Wrote:
(01-10-2016, 09:16 PM)V Wrote:
(01-10-2016, 07:01 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: We've certainly had issues on a few particular topics, usually in regards to roleplaying as mages with soulstones, but I've yet to see anyone going "you're RP is invalid and/or wrong" due to it. The common answer I have seen is "that RP is not for me."
Disagree. In almost every single thread about contentious rp subjects there is a small chorus of people asserting that the roleplay being discussed is wrong, often going as far as ignoring established lore to do it. Expressions of tolerance for other people roleplaying "wrong" are typically secondary to informing people their RP is "wrong".

Also, there isn't a single person on this site I'd consider a "leader". "Loud" would be more accurate.
^ This. All of this.

One can just go over every single post about WHM and DRG to see some of what I believe the OP is trying to point out, to point out just a couple dozen specific examples. Usually it is from the same people saying the same stuff every single time. Each of these posts are, in short, echo chambers of loudly shouted personal preference coupled with the threat of "conform this or we will exclude you." It should be pointed out that this is the exact opposite of what what people are saying they prefer to see in this very thread. This is part of the problem, no one willing to say/recognize that such are behaviors that are a problem.

For some, actual helpfulness and reasonable discussion fall absolutely fall by the wayside in favor of loud shouting of the same opinions, outright insults, and promises censure for refusal to conform. This is another point Momo brings up, and it is fairly valid. So is pointing out that this is not the way things were in the past. Yes, there were disagreements and arguments. There was not a whole sale attitude of "we will exclude you if you do not conform." In fact, as others have pointed out, that sort of thing was actively discouraged. It is absolutely true that things just change, but that does not mean that things change for the better. In my opinion, they have not. We seem to have gone from a community of creatives discussing and offering input on one another's ideas to an echo chamber of loudly shouting assholes saying "conform to what we or we just won't include you." While this is not true of everyone on this forum, it is true that one walks away with that impression with a larger number of the posts here. This is not a positive change, but the OP brings up the point that there can be reflection on where this place has been and where we wish it to go. What has changed once, can change again.

For all of the commentary on the structure of the original post, we all do seem to be able to get was Momo was going for, and we should reflect on what was said. While there are bits and bobs of what was said that I do not necessarily agree with, all of it is worth thinking about. More than a little of it is true, even if accepting that is a bit of a hard pill to swallow.

The question then becomes what are you supposed to do when people say "Does this character concept work?" are you... not supposed to answer? I always see a bunch of people come in and go "You can play whatever you want =D" but that isn't helpful - obviously the person asked for imput if they wanted to play whatever they wanted they wouldn't have made the thread (Unless they were looking for an echo chamber of how great their character is, but that's another subject). I know in the past I've offered advice about character concepts and said I didn't personally jive with some of them, but always added "But you can play whatever you want" at the end so they know it's just my opinion. Should I not offer that kind of advice? Is that seen as pushing my own agenda?

Before diving into that, I want to reiterate that by no means am I talking about everyone, or quite possibly even most people. I have seen a lot of reasonable responses and discussion happen on even touchy subjects. I have also seen those responses get absolutely drowned out by a loud and vocal minority. Nature of the beast? Maybe, or maybe something should have been done the 3rd, 4th or even 11th time an individual spewed venom at someone trying to figure out how to RP a DRG (or touchy subject x,y, or z). That said, here we go.

It is a multi-faceted issue. There is not really a simple answer at all. There are some steps than can be taken when offering out advice and what not that can possibly improve things. My brain boggles at the idea that we now actively warn people "but most won't play with you if you do that"Â when it comes to touchy subject x,y, or z. That very warning, and the acceptance of that very attitude isn't constructive, it is stifling. How did we even get here? Particularly, how did we get here as a group of people that keep wishing to advovate "we don't want a community that tells us what we can and cannot do in our RP. I will grant that people have different tastes and expectations when it comes to RP. I am also not advocating blind acceptance of every possible concept someone could come up with, but we need to accept that when it comes to issues of lore bendy or breaky zero of us speak with any kind of authority. We can all only speak from a view of personal interpretation, and we can all be wrong. All we have is best guess, and very often we do not see anyone own up to that before, during, or after new details come out (there is only one Dragoon, anyone?). We should also remember that there are actual people on the other side of the screen. Too many people forget this. Often. There is a line between constructive criticism and idea bashing that gets crossed a lot. Take a step back, read what you are putting out there, and think about how you would really feel if someone said it to you. Not just about whatever subject or topic is being discussed, but frame it as someone disagreeing with an idea you are really wanting to execute. This leads me directly to the next thing. We should also check ourselves and reflect on our own creations and where we may have taken license. Another thing my brain has boggled at is people coming down on touchy subject x,y, or z like a hammer shouting "LORE BREAKING!," while portaying or playing a thing that does not exist with in XIV's world at all (sometimes not even with basis in FF at all). A particular quote by Hawthorne comes to mind here. We have all taken some amount of liberty or license with something we are RPing right now and we should reflect on why we have done that. We should thing about why another person might be doing that with their idea. Â All of that before leveling any kind of judgement on someone's idea, and all of that in the name of keeping an open mind.Â

We need to remember that we are all RPing to have fun. To take our creations and trot them around in the game, and interact with other people doing the same. We all want a positive experience as a result of the time and effort we put into RP, and with that in mind we need to remember that that is all someone else we come across is looking for too. You get exactly what you put out into the world, and we should treat others as we would want them to treat us.

LiadansWhisper · **01-11-2016, 03:11 AM**

(01-11-2016, 02:58 AM)Yssen Wrote: We need to remember that we are all RPing to have fun. To take our creations and trot them around in the game, and interact with other people doing the same. We all want a positive experience as a result of the time and effort we put into RP, and with that in mind we need to remember that that is all someone else we come across is looking for too. You get exactly what you put out into the world, and we should treat others as we would want them to treat us.

I think it's important to remember that what is fun for you isn't necessarily fun for everyone else. And since we, individually, don't have any way of knowing what is "fun" for another person, we tend to answer from the perspective of what we consider to be fun.

I do not personally consider ignoring lore to be "fun." Lore is an important part of what I enjoy about a setting. A lack of lore actually turns me off of a setting, and makes it much harder for me to RP within such a setting. Ignoring lore when it's there just seems silly - why even play if you don't want to play in the world that you're playing in?

What's more, how is it a "kindness" to fail to let someone know, "You can play whatever you want, but this, this, and this are going to cause you problems"? If I know that the water is blistering hot and is going to burn you, and you ask me, "Hey, is the water hot," and I fail to tell you for fear of hurting your feelings, is that really kindness?

Because it's not in my book. That, right there, is cruel. Throwing someone into a shark tank without telling them ahead of time, "Hey, there are sharks in there" when they think it's empty of anything but water is pretty freaking cruel in my book. (Most especially if they asked me ahead of time, "Are there sharks in that tank?")

I have yet to see anyone post anything abusive or demeaning towards anyone showing up with really off-the-wall concepts or ideas, even when those concepts are breaking the in-game lore three ways from Sunday. If anything, people almost trip over themselves to try to be as kind as possible when they point out to Suzy that, well, that's an interesting idea, but you should be aware that x, y, and z are established in the lore, and that she might want to take that into account because it will cause problems for her down the road.

Again, knowing that a blind person is about to step out on a busy interstate and failing to warn them of what they are doing is not kindness. At all.

It is not out of meanness or a desire to hurt anyone that people who enjoy lore offer that lore to players asking questions about concepts or theories they have. It is out of kindness. I would not want to throw myself into RP, thinking I had a good grasp of what I was playing, only to find out after the fact that I was making a fool of myself and people were laughing at me behind my back. And worse, that people knew that what I was preparing to do would make a fool of me, but they never said anything because they thought it might hurt my feelings. Well, my feelings certainly are hurt now! It is out of that specific worry that I let people know when they're running roughshod over the lore - because I would never, ever want someone to be in that situation because it fucking sucks.

If someone asks a question, I'm going to respond sincerely because I care more about people rolling into RP and feeling like a fool later than I care about people on the internet thinking I'm just a huge mean person because I told someone, "Hey, that's not how it works exactly, but here are some ways you can play with that."

Oli! · **01-11-2016, 03:12 AM**

(01-11-2016, 02:58 AM)Yssen Wrote: My brain boggles at the idea that we now actively warn people "but most won't play with you if you do that"Â when it comes to touchy subject x,y, or z. That very warning, and the acceptance of that very attitude isn't constructive, it is stifling.

It's also factual.

It's a real thing that happens, and telling a person a fact for their benefit is hardly destructive. That doesn't mean that one has to like the fact, but it's still there, and it would be worse to ignore it.

That's like saying we shouldn't tell people about how using more resources will result in a worsening environmental state; it's a grim fact, but it's still something that should be faced when making further decisions.

V'aleera · **01-11-2016, 04:10 AM**

(01-11-2016, 03:11 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: It is not out of meanness or a desire to hurt anyone that people who enjoy lore offer that lore to players asking questions about concepts or theories they have.

Just make sure that when you offer questioning players the lore that you are offering them the lore; not just the lore you enjoy.

ArmachiA · **01-11-2016, 04:16 AM**

It's true we all take liberties with lore and, you know, that's mostly fine with grey areas. When it comes to grey areas, when you have to use deductive logic to come to a conclusion, there is ALWAYS going to be some lore bending. There has to be, there's just not enough lore to go around. How much bending really depends on the person though, and they have every right to post in a thread that someone's concept may be TOO bendy for their liking. I personally believe that there could have been, albeit in small amounts, Miqo'te dragoons as Ishgard only closed their gates 20 years ago, but someone else may think that's a little too out there. Both of us would be allowed to state our opinions on the matter - it doesn't hurt the player at all to see both sides of the fence on that issue.

But there is also plenty of lore stating <thing> can't happen, too. Certain things in lore that just outright tell people "Nah, you can't do that." If someone comes up with a concept that is completely against lore, it's almost irresponsible not to tell them that just because someone's feelings may be hurt.

Yssen · **01-11-2016, 04:42 AM**

(01-11-2016, 03:11 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(01-11-2016, 02:58 AM)Yssen Wrote: We need to remember that we are all RPing to have fun. To take our creations and trot them around in the game, and interact with other people doing the same. We all want a positive experience as a result of the time and effort we put into RP, and with that in mind we need to remember that that is all someone else we come across is looking for too. You get exactly what you put out into the world, and we should treat others as we would want them to treat us.

I think it's important to remember that what is fun for you isn't necessarily fun for everyone else. Â And since we, individually, don't have any way of knowing what is "fun" for another person, we tend to answer from the perspective of what we consider to be fun.

I do not personally consider ignoring lore to be "fun." Â Lore is an important part of what I enjoy about a setting. Â A lack of lore actually turns me off of a setting, and makes it much harder for me to RP within such a setting. Â Ignoring lore when it's there just seems silly - why even play if you don't want to play in the world that you're playing in?

What's more, how is it a "kindness" to fail to let someone know, "You can play whatever you want, but this, this, and this are going to cause you problems"? Â If I know that the water is blistering hot and is going to burn you, and you ask me, "Hey, is the water hot," and I fail to tell you for fear of hurting your feelings, is that really kindness?

Because it's not in my book. Â That, right there, is cruel. Â Throwing someone into a shark tank without telling them ahead of time, "Hey, there are sharks in there" when they think it's empty of anything but water is pretty freaking cruel in my book. Â (Most especially if they asked me ahead of time, "Are there sharks in that tank?")

I have yet to see anyone post anything abusive or demeaning towards anyone showing up with really off-the-wall concepts or ideas, even when those concepts are breaking the in-game lore three ways from Sunday. Â If anything, people almost trip over themselves to try to be as kind as possible when they point out to Suzy that, well, that's an interesting idea, but you should be aware that x, y, and z are established in the lore, and that she might want to take that into account because it will cause problems for her down the road.

Again, knowing that a blind person is about to step out on a busy interstate and failing to warn them of what they are doing is not kindness. Â At all.

It is not out of meanness or a desire to hurt anyone that people who enjoy lore offer that lore to players asking questions about concepts or theories they have. Â It is out of kindness. Â I would not want to throw myself into RP, thinking I had a good grasp of what I was playing, only to find out after the fact that I was making a fool of myself and people were laughing at me behind my back. Â And worse, that people knew that what I was preparing to do would make a fool of me, but they never said anything because they thought it might hurt my feelings. Â Well, my feelings certainly are hurt now! Â It is out of that specific worry that I let people know when they're running roughshod over the lore - because I would never, ever want someone to be in that situation because it fucking sucks.

If someone asks a question, I'm going to respond sincerely because I care more about people rolling into RP and feeling like a fool later than I care about people on the internet thinking I'm just a huge mean person because I told someone, "Hey, that's not how it works exactly, but here are some ways you can play with that."

With all due respect, I think you have latched onto one single concept when I laid out several as a whole. I did advocate not responding sincerely. I suggested taking a few thing into account and reflection before passing judgement on a particular idea and framing things constructively. I did not say "don't hurt people's feelings." I said "treat others as you wish to be treated." There is a very significant difference between those two concepts. I also laid out that everyone has a different way of interpreting the lore we currently have. While we often frame our responses based on our own individual interpretation of lore, we do not often make clear that that is what we are doing. We put forward the illusion of authority over the lore when we have none. I am not advocating complete non-compliance with the lore. I am advocating keep an open mind about what could be possible. Leave yourself some room to be wrong.

A prime example is DRG lore. We went from "there is only one Dragoon" to "Well there are several, but they are just random knights, only the Azure Dragoons does the jumps" to "Okay, they are not just random knights. They all do the jumps and wear the armor and have Gae Bolgs, but they are all Elezen and Hyur. No cat people or lalafell" to "Well crap. That is a miqo'te DRG, and that one is a Lalafell." At each reveal of new information, things that went contrary to what we had seen became "lorebreaking" and "off the wall" concepts. People were bad RPers for even thinking of doing that. No room was made to simply say "we don't know, this is what we think, but we could be wrong" resulting in an endless fit of back pedal by the most vocal. All of those points were taken as absolute fact. No open mind was kept and threads on this touchy subject became rife with venom as an echo chamber shouted "YER DOING IT WRONG!" This is by no means the only example, but it is a big one.

In short. It is not that there are no boundaries that we must operate within. It is that we must leave room with where those boundaries are and keep more of an open mind. Less trouble exists when we do this. Less trouble exists when we treat others as we wish to be treated. There are numerous threads here, all locked for getting out of hand now because these exact things did not happen. I suppose you could argue that doing such was "fun" for someone, but what image are we trying to put forward collectively? Are we willing to be helpful and trying to make sure that someone is coming up with an interesting story? Are we more interested in shooting things down left and right based on a belief that we could very well be eating crow over later? Are we willing to think critically and offer reasonable criticism? Are we just going to band wagon because we happen to like Bob more than we like Jim? All of those are things we have seen done, or done ourselves. I advocate taking a step back and figuring out which of those things we wish to be seen doing, not only as individuals but as a group.

Sidenote - It is all well and good to say we have not seen people be abusive or demeaning toward concepts, but this is false. There are a dozen or so locked threads that were locked because people got abusive and demeaning toward touchy concepts/subjects. They are there, monuments to how fervently awful some of us can be. Monuments to a few other issues too, but this isn't the time and place for that. Yet. Saying that it did not happen doesn't make it go away. Our solution should be to stare at it in all it's terrible, horrific glory and in doing so find resolve that we can do better than that. We can change the equation and see that it does not happen again.

V'aleera · **01-11-2016, 04:52 AM**

(01-11-2016, 04:16 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: Certain things in lore that just outright tell people "Nah, you can't do that."

An objective examination of the lore we have been given reveals, frankly, very, very few instances of "<thing> can not be done; not by anyone by any means ever." When it comes to shutting doors on (let's call them "creative") ideas, the biases of the community factor in significantly more than any established lore.

My favorite example: in some thread a while back (I don't remember which specific one) someone brought up the existence of vampires in Eorzea. This was followed by citations of various item descriptions that alluded to numerous common vampire myths (turning into bats, drinking blood etc.) that would be known to Eorzeans. Posters elected to completely ignore all the information (going as far as to say none of it was "real" lore) presented in order to maintain their position that vampires could not possibly exist in Eorzea.

LiadansWhisper · **01-11-2016, 04:56 AM**

(01-11-2016, 04:10 AM)Valeera Wrote: Just make sure that when you offer questioning players the lore that you are offering them the lore; not just the lore you enjoy.

No idea what this is supposed to mean. Is there something you wanted to speak to me about?

LiadansWhisper · **01-11-2016, 04:58 AM**

(01-11-2016, 04:52 AM)Valeera Wrote: An objective examination of the lore we have been given reveals, frankly, very, very few instances of "<thing> can not be done; not by anyone by any means ever." When it comes to shutting doors on (let's call them "creative") ideas, the biases of the community factor in significantly more than any established lore.

My favorite example: in some thread a while back (I don't remember which specific one) someone brought up the existence of vampires in Eorzea. This was followed by citations of various item descriptions that alluded to numerous common vampire myths (turning into bats, drinking blood etc.) that would be known to Eorzeans. Posters elected to completely ignore all the information (going as far as to say none of it was "real" lore) presented in order to maintain their position that vampires could not possibly exist in Eorzea.

If it isn't stated in quests or other in-game text, or drawn from official sources (like the devs themselves), then I'm not sure it counts as "real" lore.

If it is stated in the quests or other in-game text, or is drawn from official sources (like the devs themselves), then calling it "not real lore" would, of course, be silly.

Oli! · **01-11-2016, 05:00 AM**

(01-11-2016, 04:42 AM)Yssen Wrote: I said "treat others as you wish to be treated."

...

Less trouble exists when we do this. Less trouble exists when we treat others as we wish to be treated.

Your post leaves out the idea that by questioning concepts in certain ways, people are in fact treating people the way that they would like to be treated.

I for one would be much more comfortable with having my concepts questioned and prodded for faults before I put them out for people to look at, only to experience rejection and realize I've been using the source material poorly.

LiadansWhisper · **01-11-2016, 05:01 AM**

(01-11-2016, 04:42 AM)Yssen Wrote: Sidenote - It is all well and good to say we have not seen people be abusive or demeaning toward concepts, but this is false. There are a dozen or so locked threads that were locked because people got abusive and demeaning toward touchy concepts/subjects. They are there, monuments to how fervently awful some of us can be. Monuments to a few other issues too, but this isn't the time and place for that. Yet. Saying that it did not happen doesn't make it go away. Our solution should be to stare at it in all it's terrible, horrific glory and in doing so find resolve that we can do better than that. We can change the equation and see that it does not happen again.

I would love for you to provide a single link showing where these abusive or demeaning posts were directed at the original poster in the thread. Because while I've seen spats between other posters, I've never seen it directed at anyone who was just asking a question. If I had, I would be the first person to post, "Hey, what the hell, back the hell up!"

LiadansWhisper · **01-11-2016, 05:02 AM**

(01-11-2016, 05:00 AM)Oli! Wrote:
(01-11-2016, 04:42 AM)Yssen Wrote: I said "treat others as you wish to be treated."

...

Less trouble exists when we do this. Less trouble exists when we treat others as we wish to be treated.

Your post leaves out the idea that by questioning concepts in certain ways, people are in fact treating people the way that they would like to be treated.

I for one would be much more comfortable with having my concepts questioned and prodded for faults before I put them out for people to look at, only to experience rejection and realize I've been using the source material poorly.

This is basically what I said in my long, rambling post. That I am treating others as I would want to be treated by letting people know that their concepts or ideas have problems with regards to the lore we have access to.

Our FFXIV RP

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