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Gegenji · **02-24-2016, 10:35 PM**

Coming to all this a bit late, but I want to touch on one point.

(02-24-2016, 10:21 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: 2) The motherfucking MOON

... How long ago was it that I was joking that the other moon was Zodiark? I mean, I don't think it's confirmed or anything by that one bit of line, but if it is... whoa. I just thought it amusing at the time if both moons were bad.

Also, to stick more to the current topic... I was kinda caught off-guard by Vid surviving too. I was fairly certain Esthogg had struck for lethal there. I suppose Warren makes a point, though, that she an actual quest-giver, so they'd have to do something to replace her should someone skip doing sidequests and coming back to them later. Or even accepting them with her and then turning them in afterward.

***Nero*** · **02-24-2016, 10:36 PM**

(02-24-2016, 10:34 PM)Caspar Wrote:
(02-24-2016, 10:32 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: The goobue thing is a direct reference to the 1.0 Ul'dah opening, yes. It was... also kind of silly at the time.

And I mean, I understand what you're all saying about it potentially being a warning, but... It just doesn't mesh with me. Sending someone back to their mom on the brink of death is still pretty reprehensible. It's not even a "If you continue trying to make peace, I'll kill you next time" kind of thing since there are so many of Nidhogg's brood already killing other dragons in Churning Mists FATEs.

No sir, I don't like it. Surprise.
Oh, right. Lol.

So narratively, they might be trying to suggest Niddhogr is not willing to kill his kin, but the FATEs contradict this. Unless the dragons in the FATEs are just nonfatally KOing each other all the time. If that was the case, Ishgard would have had a field day with all the unconscious dragons, lol.

Again for the sake of benefit of the doubt, I will chalk that up to simple fringe warfare between factions and not Nidhogg explicitly endorsing (but not explicitly condemning) attacks on Hraesvelgr's brood or other "traitors". It's not known how directly involved the great wyrms are when it comes to controlling their brood outside of occasionally pointing at something and telling the lesser dragons to zerg rush it.

Sounsyy · **02-24-2016, 10:36 PM**

(02-24-2016, 10:02 PM)Momo Wrote:
(02-24-2016, 09:17 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: This moves into another point I saw earlier that animating inanimate objects was a corruption. This was not a corruption actually. Magicks which animated inanimate objects was actually quite a common practice during the 5th Astral Era. Amdapor, Mhach, and Nym all have inanimate constructs in their lore histories. In fact, Amdapor was built by magically animated bricks. Nym was guarded by soulkin, creatures whose soul resides in an external object, such as a golem and their soulstone, or a spriggan and their rock buddy. And Mhach animated entire mountain ranges into golems and such to fight for them. So, this part was likely not the corruption.

I think maybe the Amdapori corruption idea came in the form of the animated blocks/bricks, which were said to be animated by Voidmagics if I am not wrong? Â History seems to blame Mhachi for their admittedly vast usage of Voidmagic, but it seems that Amdapor was also a perpetrator of this as well, and I think it was that kind of morally ambiguous norm, that eventually led to the War of the Magi.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong on that animated stone theory!

Demon Brick Wrote:For many years, modern archeologists did not understand how a seemingly primitive civilization without clockwork or steam technology could build the massive stone structures of Amdapor. Animated bricks, such as this one that has chosen to follow you, may be the missing link.

No mention of the Void. Now, Demon Brick and Demon Wall get the demon part of their name from modern Eorzeans who likely see these creatures made from inanimate objects as demons. I mean, there's a thing coming out of a wall, but again, made by early thaumaturgical practices aka blood magic, but not Void.

Demon Wall Wrote:These frightful guardians are the creations of ancient spellcraft, given life when a chosen wall was inscribed with an arcane pattern of blood. Though their masters have long since perished, these sentinels of demonic visage continue to protect the crumbling ruins to which they are boundâ”€to the surprise and horror of many an unsuspecting adventurer.

How do we know? Because both of these things pre-date the discovery and use of the Void during the 5th Astral Era. Amdapor was made brick by animated brick. And Amdapor was already a nation of magi built long before Succor was created or gifted by the elementals depending on your interpretation of the lore. So if these animation practices were common in the early days of the 5th Astral, they wouldn't have been the reason for the "corruption" that ended the Amdaporians at the end of the 5th Astral.

Early 5th: Amdapor was built by magi, thaumaturges actually, not so different from the Mhachi.
Early-Mid 5th: White Magic is made to balance the creation of Black Magic.
Mid 5th: The three nations reach a peaceful zenith of magical knowledge and abilities.
Late 5th: Mhach wages war on Amdapor and Nym. In a last ditch effort to defend themselves, the Amdaporians corrupt succor. Aether is drained from planet. Great Flood wipes out everyone.

To be fair, Mhach didn't consult with the Void until the War of the Magi either, so again, late 5th Astral Era. So their creation and use of what's given the taxonomy of "soulkin" and in Nym's case, the creation of the lesser elementals, faeries, were not void related.

Hope that helps clear some things up! ^^

Caspar · **02-24-2016, 10:42 PM**

(02-24-2016, 10:36 PM)Nero Wrote:
(02-24-2016, 10:34 PM)Caspar Wrote:
(02-24-2016, 10:32 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: The goobue thing is a direct reference to the 1.0 Ul'dah opening, yes. It was... also kind of silly at the time.

And I mean, I understand what you're all saying about it potentially being a warning, but... It just doesn't mesh with me. Sending someone back to their mom on the brink of death is still pretty reprehensible. It's not even a "If you continue trying to make peace, I'll kill you next time" kind of thing since there are so many of Nidhogg's brood already killing other dragons in Churning Mists FATEs.

No sir, I don't like it. Surprise.
Oh, right. Lol.

So narratively, they might be trying to suggest Niddhogr is not willing to kill his kin, but the FATEs contradict this. Unless the dragons in the FATEs are just nonfatally KOing each other all the time. If that was the case, Ishgard would have had a field day with all the unconscious dragons, lol.

Again for the sake of benefit of the doubt, I will chalk that up to simple fringe warfare between factions and not Nidhogg explicitly endorsing (but not explicitly condemning) attacks on Hraesvelgr's brood or other "traitors". It's not known how directly involved the great wyrms are when it comes to controlling their brood outside of occasionally pointing at something and telling the lesser dragons to zerg rush it.

I could have sworn there was a FATE string in Churning Mists where two great wyrms have a personal feud and aim to kill one another, though it never ends fatally because the FATES have to restart...

Anyway, I dunno, the Sharlayan plot device is sorta... The same as any in any fiction? I guess it's just a matter of what specifically is believable to any given person. I think that it was easier for me however to believe the Allagans capable of crazy stuff because we see it in person, firsthand, before it becomes necessary to drive specific plot elements. That and they left a huge crystal tower so it's obvious that miraculous things happened during their empire. But I wonder how Sharlayan kept the secret of extradimensional observatories from other nations in the world. It would be useful for fortification and infiltration...

Warren Castille · **02-24-2016, 10:42 PM**

(02-24-2016, 10:36 PM)Nero Wrote:
(02-24-2016, 10:34 PM)Caspar Wrote:
(02-24-2016, 10:32 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: The goobue thing is a direct reference to the 1.0 Ul'dah opening, yes. It was... also kind of silly at the time.

And I mean, I understand what you're all saying about it potentially being a warning, but... It just doesn't mesh with me. Sending someone back to their mom on the brink of death is still pretty reprehensible. It's not even a "If you continue trying to make peace, I'll kill you next time" kind of thing since there are so many of Nidhogg's brood already killing other dragons in Churning Mists FATEs.

No sir, I don't like it. Surprise.
Oh, right. Lol.

So narratively, they might be trying to suggest Niddhogr is not willing to kill his kin, but the FATEs contradict this. Unless the dragons in the FATEs are just nonfatally KOing each other all the time. If that was the case, Ishgard would have had a field day with all the unconscious dragons, lol.

Again for the sake of benefit of the doubt, I will chalk that up to simple fringe warfare between factions and not Nidhogg explicitly endorsing (but not explicitly condemning) attacks on Hraesvelgr's brood or other "traitors". It's not known how directly involved the great wyrms are when it comes to controlling their brood outside of occasionally pointing at something and telling the lesser dragons to zerg rush it.

Technically fair, narratively inconsistent. Darkscale has to be pretty high-ranking and strong, right? He's outright trying to murder Vedrfolnir in his FATE chain. Better, all of his lieutenants in the first stages are ALSO featured in FATEs that are stand-alone, where they are... Also trying to kill white dragons.

This is why I think we spend more time thinking on the lore than SE does.

Sounsyy · **02-24-2016, 10:53 PM**

(02-24-2016, 10:26 PM)Nero Wrote: Also, it might be a reference to something from 1.0, but Thancred feeling responsible for not stopping a goobbue from breaking free in Ul'dah and killing Minfillia's dad is...good lord. I don't even know how to describe how utterly idiotic I find it.

Well... okay, out of context it sounds silly, until you realize that the goobbue breaking free in the middle of a parade was a plot set up by the children of some of the former Syndicate (including but not limited to F'lhaminn and Amajina hyur-tossing lalafells). The plan was to publicly put a stop to the goobbue and claim the fame. However, the goobbue escapes prematurely and none of the Syndicate children are ready for it, so Thancred tries to intervene, but he was being "distracted" by none other than a gorgeous young F'lhaminn, Minfilia's now adopted mother. The goobbue escapes and flees into the alleyways where it almost crushes young Minfilia who was passing out flowers to the refugees because F'lhaminn asked her to so she'd be out of the way. Warburton, Minfilia's father, pushes his daughter out of the way but is crushed instead.

You later find out that the real travesty is that Minfilia's father, Warburton, was a member of the Ala Mhigan Resistance and more importantly an Imperial double agent who was carrying vital information about the Empire's plans for the primals to his handler in Ul'dah, ironically, the mastermind behind the escaped goobbue plot. His intelligence died with him. Anywho, how did the Goobbue escape early? Warburton's partner, another Garlean double agent, offed him and Niellefresne, F'lhaminn's lover and Warburton's handler to keep the intel secret. When Thancred figures all of this out, he confronts the Syndicate children in a game of cards, and soundly trounces all of them, taking all of their money from them. He then uses the money to buy Warburton's funeral. Destroyed by the guilt of what she had helped commit, F'lhaminn adopts the young Minfilia.

Parvacake · **02-24-2016, 11:11 PM**

(02-24-2016, 10:53 PM)Sounsyy Wrote:
(02-24-2016, 10:26 PM)Nero Wrote: Also, it might be a reference to something from 1.0, but Thancred feeling responsible for not stopping a goobbue from breaking free in Ul'dah and killing Minfillia's dad is...good lord. I don't even know how to describe how utterly idiotic I find it.
(Text)

I only played a little bit of 1.0 though I played just enough to remember that parade scene and the dad being killed. I never figured out it was Minfillia's dad until Thancred said something and then was just...there. Totally shocked.

Zelmanov · **02-25-2016, 12:21 AM**

Going back to the EstHogg assassination, If you notice, he directly lecture's vidofnir AFTER the stabbing. This leads me to believe that the attack was purposefully nonfatal

otherwise he'd be lecturing a corpse which is infinitely more dumb.

So my conclusion is that Nidhogg's hatred is solely towards the Ishgardians and he bares sympathy/mercy towards his own dragonkind.

What he did was the equivalent of a violent spanking and warning that he'd do much worse if they even think of being Â race traitor.

S'imba · **02-25-2016, 12:35 AM**

Niddhog just jumped on the dragoon hype when HW came out and didn't put any effort into learning the class. >.>

Though in all seriousness that might have a lot to do with it. From what little cutscenes we've been shown of him he is usually in dragon form. So when he uses Estinien's form he's just kind of trying to copy the knowledge he has from watching dragoons kill dragons. I mean it's a completely way of killing than he's used over the ages of his life using a lance for a first time. I'd just say Vidofnir was just damn lucky it didn't hit where Niddhog was aiming (cause SE doesn't want to kill her). Spear missed anything vital it should of hit, spine or heart.

Though the reasoning for even appearing as Estinien would have been more of a symbolic gesture. He wanted the Ishgardians to know exactly what he did to their champion. Throw them into despair and break their spirits by showing them that even the mighty Azure Dragoon was nothing him. Most of those people were ultimately too insignificant to kill and it would ultimately be far more useful to let them go home and tell everyone they know what they saw.Â

Really seems to me that the greatest weapon that Niddhog employs is the head games.

allgivenover · **02-25-2016, 12:49 AM**

(02-24-2016, 09:17 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: So... are the undead there because of Amdapor or because of Mhach? We don't know.

I assumed because the defenses were not stirred until recently that they were part of it, but now that I think on it that's still an assumption.

(02-24-2016, 09:17 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: This moves into another point I saw earlier that animating inanimate objects was a corruption. This was not a corruption actually. Magicks which animated inanimate objects was actually quite a common practice during the 5th Astral Era. Amdapor, Mhach, and Nym all have inanimate constructs in their lore histories. In fact, Amdapor was built by magically animated bricks. Nym was guarded by soulkin, creatures whose soul resides in an external object, such as a golem and their soulstone, or a spriggan and their rock buddy. And Mhach animated entire mountain ranges into golems and such to fight for them. So, this part was likely not the corruption.

So, what was the corruption? The final boss. When Amdapor corrupted Succor into a tool for war. When white magic was no longer used to heal, but to hurt. This was the corruption. This is what angered the elementals and possibly why they feared to go into Amdapor while Kuribu still lived. This also fits in very nicely with already established lore of why the elementals drove out the Amdaporians:

Bolded the important part, this is what I meant. I was posting from work on in my brief downtime and didn't properly articulate. Though I also thought that perhaps the statue itself was animated with corrupt succor, I suppose there's no reason to believe that really.

Aaron · **02-25-2016, 01:08 AM**

I don't know why, but I feel this is how SE treated Ayermic this patch.
[Image: giphy.gif]

Sounsyy · **02-25-2016, 01:17 AM**

(02-25-2016, 12:49 AM)allgivenover Wrote:
(02-24-2016, 09:17 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: This moves into another point I saw earlier that animating inanimate objects was a corruption. This was not a corruption actually. Magicks which animated inanimate objects was actually quite a common practice during the 5th Astral Era. Amdapor, Mhach, and Nym all have inanimate constructs in their lore histories. In fact, Amdapor was built by magically animated bricks. Nym was guarded by soulkin, creatures whose soul resides in an external object, such as a golem and their soulstone, or a spriggan and their rock buddy. And Mhach animated entire mountain ranges into golems and such to fight for them. So, this part was likely not the corruption.

So, what was the corruption? The final boss. When Amdapor corrupted Succor into a tool for war. When white magic was no longer used to heal, but to hurt. This was the corruption. This is what angered the elementals and possibly why they feared to go into Amdapor while Kuribu still lived. This also fits in very nicely with already established lore of why the elementals drove out the Amdaporians:

Bolded the important part, this is what I meant. I was posting from work on in my brief downtime and didn't properly articulate. Though I also thought that perhaps the statue itself was animated with corrupt succor, I suppose there's no reason to believe that really.

Once defeated, you can actually click on Kuribu for a nice little bit of lore on how its animated:

Guardian Statue Wrote:A closer inspection suggests that the scarlet-hued gems upon its hands and breast were responsible for breathing life into the stone.

Also from Kuribu TT card:

Kuribu Wrote:Created by the magi of Amdapor using an advanced form of golem construction, this statue is animated by the gems embedded in its chest and hands. Kuribu commands formidable white magicks to aid in its battle against invading voidsent.

So golem magicks, or animation magick, which was quite popular throughout the 5th Astral era in Amdapor, Mhach, and Nym. Though the gems Amdapor specifically used to animate Kuribu may have been enchanted by Succor, I think the "corruption" lies more in the magic it uses than the magic with which it was made.

Now, interesting sidenote and tangent on golem magicks... Amberscale Rock and several of the amber statues which at one point were the hallmark of Gelmorran architecture were known to remove powerful magical enchantments, including and most pertinently, golem soulstones. Which begs the interesting question, why did the Gelmorrans surround their city entrances and dot the forest with these amber statues? Was it to protect against golems which still lay about from the previous era? Perhaps more importantly, why do the elementals want the statues removed so badly? The amber doesn't seem to affect the elementals, because there are elementals living in Amberscale Rock. Who knows. Answers only lead to more questions.

Gabineaux · **02-25-2016, 01:19 AM**

(02-24-2016, 08:58 PM)Zelmanov Wrote: Was a little confused/surprised about the "Death to Nidhogg" chant being framed as a negative.

I mean yes calling for blood is rarely ever a good thing, but they weren't saying death to all dravanians, they are quite clearly calling for an act against the final person who will not stand down and end the war.Â

Ishgard's fight was never with Vidofnir, and even Midgardsormr was like "YOu ready to smack down my son?"Â

So yeah, if anything it could have been better phrased of presented if the intent was less a rekindling of enthusiasm to end the war and more a "back to square one"

It's negative because a bloo bloo bloo our best buddy Estineneirneinenrine?! Honestly I hope we just get to kill him because he was as useful as tuxedo mask. He shows up after we finish all the work and goes 'GOOD THING I DID ALL THE WORK!' The only use he had was holding the eyeball. That's it. I guess that's useful, if he didn't fuck that up too. Angry

LiadansWhisper · **02-25-2016, 01:40 AM**

(02-24-2016, 11:06 AM)allgivenover Wrote: Succor is corruptible (reverse status in Lost City HM).

The abuse of Succor by the Amdapori included giving life to the dead and to maybe inanimate objects.

That Succor could still be used by the Amdapori suggests that it's a power the Elementals use but do not directly control.

Well we kind of already knew that Succor was corruptible. It was strongly suggested in some of the stories (combined with what we saw of Amdapor City the first time) that the Amdapori were mixing Succor with things they shouldn't have and using it for evil ends.

I don't think the Elementals were able to control it once they had given the secrets of it to the Amdapori, but they had a really definitive way of taking care of that issue when the Amdapori got too big for their britches.

LiadansWhisper · **02-25-2016, 01:42 AM**

(02-24-2016, 12:34 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: I love me some Lost City HM. If you keep an eye out, there's some seriously interesting lore implications that allgivenover has laid out. Amdapor was naaaaaaughty. They were also evidently able to conjure static magical traps, invoke powers of Succor far beyond anything the WoL can do (Ancient Holy), and even create light and darkness aspected sprites.

Of course, the padjal feel that these were all defensive measures, but express consternation and confusion that the elementals were so put off by them. They surmise it was because the entities couldn't discern friend from foe due to age -- but I wonder if, perhaps, at the height of Amdapor's power, they felt anyone not with them was against them. The elementals and the padjal would've fallen into that category.

"Life" and "light," as it turns out, can be turned to darker ends. It's an interesting reflection on where the MSQ appears to be heading.

I think that, all things considered, it's probably that the Amdapori got so full of themselves that they were incredibly hostile towards anyone who even suggested that they might be doing things they shouldn't. Which would include the Elementals (though not the Padjal, as the latter didn't exist at the time).

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