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Orlog · **06-07-2013, 09:06 PM**

With the addition of being able to change 1.0 character's races (Or gender, if you feel so inclined) is anyone going to be changing anything about their character to fit their new look?

For example, when I first made Bea she was a Keeper of the Moon Mi'qote. She's a very awkward character from the get go, but I never felt like I could use anything side from her personality to push this. Since then I've decided to change her over to a Sea Wolves Roegadyn. This allows me to really to throw her size around to add into her awkwardness. On top of that, I'd really like for her to be a little bit more in touch with her heritage with customs and sometimes using Roegadyn specific words at inappropriate times.

...Also, Bea and Issac's relationship now reminds me of that of Balthier and Fran as far as appearances, and this makes me all sorts of giddy.

Eva · **06-07-2013, 09:51 PM**

This may or may not be a moot point, and if it is I apologize in advance, but if you are maintaining the character's identity and not essentially creating a new character, have you given any thought to how this race change might impact backstory and such?

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with changing race to suit your RP preferences, but there are perhaps some instances where such a retcon could have some pretty awkward implications for some other RPers you may have interacted with in the past or present.

I know a number of people are making some pretty drastic changes to pre-existing characters and I thought it might make an interesting discussion topic.

The way I see it there are two very good, but opposing points of view here:

1) There were no male miqo'te and female roegadyn options for a given character at 1.0 and something like this would make a lot more sense for a particular character, or provide a more entertaining and enriching experience for that RPer.

2) An established character suddenly changing race leaves a void in explanation. Â Most people would probably be willing to look the other way (that's kind of my view), but some characters may exhibit racist tendencies (or put more mildly, maybe preferences towards some races more than others) and past interactions might not make sense if we are left to assume that a character was "X race all along".

An example of this might be if Anne and Betty were both hyur in 1.0 and were chummy growing up and all that other good stuff, but Anne was secretly prejudiced against roegadyn (perhaps for some very good reason in her backstory). Â All of the sudden Betty is now a roegadyn in ARR, which leaves the existence of their friendship somewhat hazy.

This of course can be worked out between the impacted individuals (as it should be), but I was mostly curious if this has been considered at all by any within the RP community.

Retconning in RP is always very tricky business. Â Frustrated

Also since it was asked, we are not planning any racial or other drastic changes for Eva in ARR. Â She will appear mostly as she was in 1.0 with possibly a few minor cosmetic alterations. (and I'm really frekkin' looking forward to the long hair~)

Aysun · **06-07-2013, 11:05 PM**

There are a few people I know off hand that are changing race, and a few that are changing gender (I think).

I'm usually against it.. but there's a pretty big IF involved.

I'm against it IF your character is heavily involved with a lot of other characters. That's a LOT of characters you're going to affect when you change. It's at that point where I think people should consider thinking a bit more on it.

Race kinda to me is something that is very weird when people decide to just change, because to me, if you're playing a Hyur and such, and you think all along that he should have been a Miqo'te, but he's never displayed the traits of a Miqo'te nor had the past associated with being one.. then how is it that he should be a Miqo'te again? XD If you really just want to play one, then make a new character that is one, because you basically are doing just that, just keeping the connections you've made and a name..?

Race has a lot to do with how characters interact with each other too, as Eva said: some characters may exhibit racist tendencies (or put more mildly, maybe preferences towards some races more than others) and past interactions might not make sense if we are left to assume that a character was "X race all along". My character is one of those, and it's kinda crappy to have her suddenly forced to be friends with someone who she may not ever have been had interactions gone differently due to racial stuffs, and having no IC reason why she apparently set aside her prejudice for this particular character.

But you know, if you're set on it, even if you have RP'd with a lot of people.. at least having the courtesy to talk to the ones who have somewhat close relationships with your character about the change before just DOING it is much appreciated..

BUT.. if you haven't RP'd with very many people? If those people are fine with you switching? Go for it!! Big Grin

..I got totally off topic.

The only thing I'm changing is possibly hair style. It all depends on what options they give us, but I really have been really happy with how Aysun looks since I made her in OB. xD /boring

Shuck · **06-07-2013, 11:42 PM**

The cases against fucking about with your character any way you please are kind of assuming an awful lot. Sure, it doesn't work in the exceptionally specific examples provided.

I mean, I'm also seeing a lot of assumed bits and pieces about how the various races have somehow magically preserved a kind of unsettling purity of habits and conventions in a world that quite literally has instant transportation. What, pray tell, would be a Miqo'te characteristic of an individual who had lived in Ul'Dah their entire lives, well away from the Black Shroud and any sense of tribalism? What about the vast difference between Hyur from Gridania and Hyur from Limsa Lominsa?

I get that conventions help guide people to creating characters. I do, sincerely. But they're really, really not an end-all, be-all, hard rule for how a character does and does not behave. Kind of like conventions and stereotypes aren't a hard rule for how people in reality behave. And ultimately, shouldn't these characters feel as real as possible? That's what I aim for, anyway.

On the actual topic of this thread: I'll just be swapping Hyur "clans" to reflect five years of hard labor in reconstructing the world. Because "smooth little boy" is the only option for Midlanders, I guess.

Vareal · **06-08-2013, 12:03 AM**

I'm changing nothing about my character. Ailith has been around since 1.0 and I'm not going to give her a make over, I may look at the different styles of hair and I need to change her hair color, but other than that Caden -my main character- will be a fresh start from scratch.

In regards to what Asyun said about changing races when you always thought your character should have been a different race, but showed no traits from that particular race, I think that there may be some minute opportunity for that to sort of kind of work. If you stretch back the clock three years, my very first character, Nedral Crenl, was basically a Hyur male trapped inside the body of a Miqo'te named Aixa. Meaning that the two shared one mind, each having their own independent thoughts. Would it be possible that, some how, whether it be a side effect of being sent into the void or of Dalamud's decent or Bahamuts release, that the race of the character was changed to the dominant mind?

Well, now that I think about it, that is pretty far fetched. This is something I would never do, but I'm not entirely against other people trying to do something like that. However I do think that if you're already established and well known amongst a group of people, it would be pretty shitty on your part to just up and change race like that.

But I suppose if you've never RP'd with your character before, then more power to you.

Shuck · **06-08-2013, 12:07 AM**

(06-08-2013, 12:03 AM)Vareal Wrote: However I do think that if you're already established and well known amongst a group of people, it would be pretty shitty on your part to just up and change race like that.

Ok. I gotta ask: How exactly do you figure? Are people really unable to cope with swapping an avatar out? I, personally, don't believe they are. I'm with Eva's approach: Whatever, roll with it.

Vareal · **06-08-2013, 12:18 AM**

It's not that they're unable to cope, I'm quite sure 98% of people wouldn't care one way or another, but it's not really them that you'd be turning back on. I mean, you've already established yourself as one race and have built your character around that race. Just because at the last minute, or because of the advent of the new races/genders, you want to change I mean...that would just feel degrading to my character. I can understand if you're unhappy with your character's race and you want to change it, by all means go for it, but if you've been at the same character for a number of years -if you've been around that long- it would just be confusing if you all of a sudden changed race.

Think about it. What if Kylin, after being a Hyur midlander for forever!, just decided that Kylin would be better as a big, hulking female Roegadyn? Kylin's the man, and all, but I'd feel like throwing a stuffed tonberry at his head. With a large rock sewn inside of it while shouting, "What were you thinking!?"

But alas, we would all come around to the idea and still huddle around the firepits and listen to the very large and very intimidating female Roegadyn Kylin tell tails of her exploits throughout the land.

oh, oh, he'd also have to change his name to Kylinda. xD

Gerik · **06-08-2013, 12:24 AM**

(06-08-2013, 12:18 AM)Vareal Wrote: Think about it. What if Kylin, after being a Hyur midlander for forever!, just decided that Kylin would be better as a big, hulking female Roegadyn? Kylin's the man, and all, but I'd feel like throwing a stuffed tonberry at his head. With a large rock sewn inside of it while shouting, "What were you thinking!?"

Yeah, not to mention that we'd have to retcon Kylin and Gerik's entire relationship because Gerik doesn't date women .____.

For me, I'm not a huge fan of gender/race retcons, but I suppose if they have to be done, then I think now's probably the best opportunity for that.

But really it makes more sense at that point to just create a new character, in my opinion.

Vareal · **06-08-2013, 12:27 AM**

(06-08-2013, 12:24 AM)Gerik Wrote: But really it makes more sense at that point to just create a new character, in my opinion.

Exactly.

Shuck · **06-08-2013, 12:28 AM**

Ok. Point by point time.

(06-08-2013, 12:18 AM)Vareal Wrote: It's not that they're unable to cope, I'm quite sure 98% of people wouldn't care one way or another, but it's not really them that you'd be turning back on. I mean, you've already established yourself as one race and have built your character around that race.

Wait, wait, wait, wait. Who does this? Who builds an entire character around nothing but the race chosen at selection? How is that a complete character in the slightest? Isn't that just a kind of an awkward, lifeless, pale shade of a thing that was supposed to be a person occupying a world?

(06-08-2013, 12:18 AM)Vareal Wrote: Just because at the last minute, or because of the advent of the new races/genders, you want to change I mean...that would just feel degrading to my character.

Two questions:

1. What?

2. How?

(06-08-2013, 12:18 AM)Vareal Wrote: I can understand if you're unhappy with your character's race and you want to change it, by all means go for it, but if you've been at the same character for a number of years -if you've been around that long- it would just be confusing if you all of a sudden changed race.

Confusing in what sense? New options were offered, and they took one. Is there a secret step I'm missing? Some unseen turn that converts this ray to a fractal, infinitely complex in it's endless repetition of shapes?

(06-08-2013, 12:18 AM)Vareal Wrote: Think about it. What if Kylin, after being a Hyur midlander for forever!, just decided that Kylin would be better as a big, hulking female Roegadyn? Kylin's the man, and all, but I'd feel like throwing a stuffed tonberry at his head. With a large rock sewn inside of it while shouting, "What were you thinking!?"

But alas, we would all come around to the idea and still huddle around the firepits and listen to the very large and very intimidating female Roegadyn Kylin tell tails of her exploits throughout the land.

No, no. That's your reaction. My reaction would be: "Ok." And that's all. Because it's a really, really small leap to say "Fine, that character is now this, and always has been."

(06-08-2013, 12:24 AM)Gerik Wrote: But really it makes more sense at that point to just create a new character, in my opinion.

Except for all that progress and work you put into the old one. Why re-do when you can just repurpose?

Gerik · **06-08-2013, 12:33 AM**

(06-08-2013, 12:28 AM)Shuck Wrote:
(06-08-2013, 12:24 AM)Gerik Wrote: But really it makes more sense at that point to just create a new character, in my opinion.

Except for all that progress and work you put into the old one. Why re-do when you can just repurpose?

Use your one-time character recreation?

Orlog · **06-08-2013, 12:34 AM**

(06-08-2013, 12:18 AM)Vareal Wrote: I mean, you've already established yourself as one race and have built your character around that race. Just because at the last minute, or because of the advent of the new races/genders, you want to change I mean...that would just feel degrading to my character. I can understand if you're unhappy with your character's race and you want to change it, by all means go for it, but if you've been at the same character for a number of years -if you've been around that long- it would just be confusing if you all of a sudden changed race.

I can't speak for other people but for me... this isn't true? When I designed Bea, I didn't have any idea what race she'd be picked as. I went with a miq'ote not because it happened to fit the character itself the most, but just because everything else was kind of boring to me. Needless to say, Bea doesn't actually display any characteristics of a â€œtraditionalâ€ miq'ote, but just a regular person who grew up with constant contact with different nationalities.

If the female Roegadyn were an option in 1.0 I would have chosen them right away, but it wasn't, so I didn't. I'm not entirely sure why there seems to be so many negative connotations regarding swapping out an avatar to one that is more to your liking for you as the player and the character.

Also, I don't think it was really be that confusing if someone decided to change race? I mean, You can imagine what would have happened to your character if the world they lived it was completely destroyed by a giant dragon, but it's inconceivable to just pretend that a race swap was what a character was from the get go?

(06-08-2013, 12:24 AM)Gerik Wrote: But really it makes more sense at that point to just create a new character, in my opinion.

Except, in my instance, (and I'm assuming anyone else who does this) the core of the character remains in tact? I mean, the things that I'm changing are so minimal that you'd probably never even notice them when involved in any typical interactions. ...So, it makes no sense why I would make a new character.

Yeah, I really don't see what the big deal is, here.

Shuck · **06-08-2013, 12:35 AM**

(06-08-2013, 12:33 AM)Gerik Wrote: Use your one-time character recreation?

That's what's being done.

Yssen · **06-08-2013, 12:37 AM**

I think we should always cleave to the wishes of the individual player, particularly in the case of people changing race to one of the three options that were not available during 1.0, namely male miqo, fem roe, and female highlander. These options were flat out not available for play, and it is only natural that people would re-examine race choice in the light of new choices, appearance options and information. At all times we should be supportive of people doing what makes the game and RP enjoyable for them. While race change can be a drastic thing, I do not think one should have to seek the approval of everyone that has interacted with their character. A simple heads up and being open to the possible reworking of past interactions and relations is all I think is reasonably required.Â

We should remain flexible and accepting of people's decisions and possible explanations regarding a change in race. In the long run, it really won't matter too terribly much. FFXIV-ARR is a re-launch. While we should give all due reverence to past interactions and story that came out of 1.0, but really we should be looking forward to the new interactions and stories that we will be telling together when the game launches. Singling out people who may be changing race because of the new options available, and calling it an unacceptable behavior is counter productive to this. I think we can all give just a little bit leeway in the name of having more fun together in the future.

Just my two cents,
Yssen

Aysun · **06-08-2013, 12:37 AM**

(06-07-2013, 11:42 PM)Shuck Wrote: I mean, I'm also seeing a lot of assumed bits and pieces about how the various races have somehow magically preserved a kind of unsettling purity of habits and conventions in a world that quite literally has instant transportation. What, pray tell, would be a Miqo'te characteristic of an individual who had lived in Ul'Dah their entire lives, well away from the Black Shroud and any sense of tribalism? What about the vast difference between Hyur from Gridania and Hyur from Limsa Lominsa?

I get that conventions help guide people to creating characters. I do, sincerely. But they're really, really not an end-all, be-all, hard rule for how a character does and does not behave. Kind of like conventions and stereotypes aren't a hard rule for how people in reality behave. And ultimately, shouldn't these characters feel as real as possible? That's what I aim for, anyway.

Well, if you knew anything about my character in particular, you'd know that I very much am in support of deviating from the conventions provided. I avoid the tribalness, nunh-tia stuff like the plague with my character.

In game, there are plenty of examples of those within the cities still displaying racism, which suggests to me that there still IS some "purity" in the races, even when they've moved on from their tribal roots, per your example.

May I offer this for you as a Miqo'te characteristic of an individual raised in Ul'dah their entire life: obviously the physical "they are a Miqo'te" characteristic. o_o While my character was raised only around ONE other Miqo'te, her mother, she still displays characteristics of her race because it's in her genes. She still has that solitary nature to an extent. Instinct, baby. The races are physically different, as well. We have different starting stats for a reason. She may excel at the more "stereotypical Miqo'te job" of Archery for that reason. Wink

While a character should be more than just their race, their race is a part of them and contributes to their interactions with others.

My point is that, TO ME (and no one has to agree, I'm not saying that, I'm just discussing my point of view), race is intertwined with the character in such a way that retconning to a new race would change the character so much that it just doesn't make sense to call it the same one.

(06-08-2013, 12:07 AM)Shuck Wrote:
(06-08-2013, 12:03 AM)Vareal Wrote: However I do think that if you're already established and well known amongst a group of people, it would be pretty shitty on your part to just up and change race like that.

Ok. I gotta ask: How exactly do you figure? Are people really unable to cope with swapping an avatar out? I, personally, don't believe they are. I'm with Eva's approach: Whatever, roll with it.

We can cope, because we have to. Smile

Heads up is always nice, though, as I said.

Please calm down. We were not attacking your friend and her decision to change her race, we were simply stating our opinions on the matter.

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