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ExAtomos · **07-13-2016, 01:47 PM**

I would say that, since you are only roleplaying (or rather, journaling) outside of game, do what you wish. In game is when it gets tricky when it comes to RPing as the WoL or other high-powered character.

Morningstar1337 · **07-13-2016, 01:56 PM**

(07-13-2016, 01:47 PM)ExAtomos Wrote: I would say that, since you are only roleplaying (or rather, journaling) outside of game, do what you wish. In game is when it gets tricky when it comes to RPing as the WoL or other high-powered character.

That was the original intention. And I feel like we already had this discussion before...

S'imba · **07-13-2016, 03:06 PM**

I think it depends. I personally feel a character's flaws in their discipline is a lot more interesting than how good they actually are. Being a complete master leaves no room for growth in their field.Â

I think personality is also hugely important to a character's job or class. S'imba would suck at arcanist for the fact he doesn't have that mathematical and strategy forming skills the class requires. A character who keeps his head cool 100% of the time and highly analytical probably won't be the greatest warrior or drk.Â

Then you get into soulstones and how much they affect skill. They'd definitely increase the rate of which someone learns. Though I don't think it's an instantaneous event. It still requires a lot of work.Â

There's nothing wrong with having a knack for something, but it still seems more intriguing if there's an appropriate amount of room for growth.Â

The best black mage rper I've ever seen used a lot of these traits. 50 year old man whose family line traced themselves back as black mages passing the secrets from father to son type of deal. He was a highly skilled black mage. He has the personality you would expect to see. Arrogant, his magic was so superior in his mind that all other kinds were inferior, and power hungry. Despite this his grasp on the art while he could be considered a master still had plenty of mistakes bring made and still had to go to the book to look up spells and rituals. He had strengths and weaknesses within the scope of black magic. Which made it feel much more realistic.Â

Basically my thoughts on it is even a prodigy would have to spend a life time devoted to a craft to become a master. It's unlikely that someone trying to use every discipline would become a master since most of thour things require a life time purely devoted to them. Just my personal opinion.

Aaron · **07-13-2016, 03:12 PM**

(07-13-2016, 11:50 AM)Valence Wrote:
(07-13-2016, 09:22 AM)Aaron Wrote: But that's besides the point. Aaron my character for example is very good at both magic manipulation and swordsman skills considering he spent like three years training with it non stop before his current self I rp. Like, he literally did nothing else but train.Â

3 years is absolutely peanuts in that kind of things. A drop in the water at best. You will probably be a neophyte after that, nothing more. That's how it works with art, drawing, music, martial arts, swordsmanship or whatever else.

Not really, there's plenty people that have mastered similar stuff in shorter times both irl & in fiction.

To put it frankly, let us look at the 10,000 hours rule. In short, that's a lie. I could get complicated and explain it but that's too much work.

I guess what I'm saying is there's no static timeframe for one person to get highly adept at something. No where in my post did I say Aaron was masterful,I simply said he's "very good", also for clarification.

Gotta read between the lines there. Unless you know a timeframe to judge someone's ability in a field that was vaguely classified as "very good"?

Aaron · **07-13-2016, 03:17 PM**

(07-13-2016, 12:03 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(07-13-2016, 11:50 AM)Valence Wrote:
(07-13-2016, 09:22 AM)Aaron Wrote: But that's besides the point. Aaron my character for example is very good at both magic manipulation and swordsman skills considering he spent like three years training with it non stop before his current self I rp. Like, he literally did nothing else but train.Â

3 years is absolutely peanuts in that kind of things. A drop in the water at best. You will probably be a neophyte after that, nothing more. That's how it works with art, drawing, music, martial arts, swordsmanship or whatever else.

Swordplay and spellcasting are, so far as demonstrated in game, completely different schools. 3 years spent doing both would break down to roughly a year and a half each, if you spent every day working on both equally.

Better, if you developed your own style to incorporate both, you would be completely writing a new way of doing things. Those sorts of disciplines can only grow as much as they are challenged, so you would have to be fighting other styles constantly in order to establish how to maneuver around them. Given the different tactics used amongst varying styles of one type of weapon (boxing, wrestling, muy thai, juijitsu just to name some popular barehanded methods) you would be forced to be fighting every type of martial school AND every type of magical school in order to work on those reflexes.

What you're saying is that your custom-grown style has become strong enough to have a response to every form of known combat and you created, honed and perfected it in the time between the Calamity and ARR with time to spare.

Also, for someone who hates fighting, Aaron enters a fuckton of fighting tournaments.

I enter those tournaments to win gil point blank and simple lol. I won't even lie to you. That small chance of winning 150k is enough motivation for me.

I bullshit IC reasons for joining just to get involved in it because IC Aaron's a pacifist 9/10. If there was no gil involved I'd never join. Was thinking of just throwing a mask over his face and rping a different character every Saturday just to get in that thing but where's the fun in that? Do note, since I've said this now if it irks anyone please let me know. I'll stop joining if my motive really grinds somebody's gears.

Edit - Oh yeah, for further clarification when I say he's good at magic I'm not talking about arcanism or that stuff. I'm referring to the style he's made up (Which is completely fucking made up and has no base class for reference in game, like a ice spell sword or some shit) and gotten good at using.

I'm not throwing meteors from the sky at people like some rpers I see. But I'm just gonna sip my tea on that.

Gegenji · **07-13-2016, 04:59 PM**

I've always been of the mindset that if you feel like you "have" to give a character flaws to "balance them out"... then you're doing it wrong. You're not really making an RP character at that point - you're min/maxing a character sheet, and then plugging in some detriments before you try to sell it to your DM just so you can point at them and go "No no, it's totally okay, he's an alcoholic (although he gets +3d6 damage when drunk)!"

A lot of good points have been already been made for more... organic give-and-take. You've become a master of one thing - how long did it take you? What did you have to give up along the way? What good/bad things occurred doing this?

And as you become more skilled in other things, you're obviously not keeping those original skills as sharp as you would. So, you're giving up skill for versatility - especially when we're talking about professions. You can be a good reader, a good cyclist, and a bunch of things in real life, sure, but it's not a fair comparison. A better one is thinking about how many people have multiple degrees in different fields. How much of their life is taken up by that? And is that person still as good in the first thing they got their degree in when they finish their second?

Obviously you can change careers and learn new things, but that takes time... and skills not used will fade somewhat. So a Master of All is hard to present without some serious explanation. There's a reason for the "jack of all trades, master of none" phrase.

Nebbs · **07-13-2016, 05:08 PM**

9000 power in everything and multipass

Or I just play a failure that has some basic okayness and may prove themselves in a critical situation. But honestly the best RP is in being imperfect and flawed.

Occasionally I get carried away if pushed but try to remind myself to fall on my face.

Valence · **07-13-2016, 05:57 PM**

(07-13-2016, 03:12 PM)Aaron Wrote:
(07-13-2016, 11:50 AM)Valence Wrote:
(07-13-2016, 09:22 AM)Aaron Wrote: But that's besides the point. Aaron my character for example is very good at both magic manipulation and swordsman skills considering he spent like three years training with it non stop before his current self I rp. Like, he literally did nothing else but train.Â

3 years is absolutely peanuts in that kind of things. A drop in the water at best. You will probably be a neophyte after that, nothing more. That's how it works with art, drawing, music, martial arts, swordsmanship or whatever else.
Not really, there's plenty people that have mastered similar stuff in shorter times both irl & in fiction.

To put it frankly, let us look at the 10,000 hours rule. In short, that's a lie. I could get complicated and explain it but that's too much work.

I guess what I'm saying is there's no static timeframe for one person to get highly adept at something. No where in my post did I say Aaron was masterful,I simply said he's "very good", also for clarification.

Gotta read between the lines there. Unless you know a timeframe to judge someone's ability in a field that was vaguely classified as "very good"?

In 3 years? Are you kidding me?

Well, in any case, I never saw anyone like that in my entire life. I have been to art schools, do art myself, and anyone that tells me outright that they master their field (drawing, painting, whatever you fancy), after just 3 years, is suffering from heavy delusions.

Seriously... 3 years.

Will have to agree to disagree on that one, but that's just silly. Go tell me that a musician gets a master of his art after just 3 years. Really?

I'm certainly not saying that there is a fixed timeframe, I'm just saying that be it a master, or 'very good', after 3 years, is silly to me. Unless we somehow put a very different meaning behind 'very good'.

Warren Castille · **07-13-2016, 06:17 PM**

You can give a rough split on these sorts of things by defining to what extent you pursue a hobby. Let's say you enjoy running.

An amateur might do some jogging on a treadmill in the comfort of their own home. Just hit that target heartrate and work up a sweat.

A hobbyist might push for mileage, trying to push themselves without diverting long, long hours into it and having it detract from the rest of their life. They might enter a marathon for fun, and not mind if they don't even finish.

A serious hobbyist will be entering marathons with the intention of completing them. As you go up the seriousness curve, you start tracking those times and working harder towards them on the weekend to be able to outperform yourself.

A marathon doesn't necessarily make you a runner, though. Some people can just trudge through it with endless energy and endurance without actually going fast. Some people are born sprinters, and able to do a 4 minute mile but not much else.

Then you get into the professional levels of things, people who have dedicated years of their lives to setting records and performing at a world-class level. And then you have the flipside of that: Someone who's been pushing on a treadmill for six years and just doesn't have the means to improve.

Someone who has tried to qualify for olympic trials and never made it. Someone who has entered, and failed to complete, ten marathons in as many months. Time spent does not equal proficiency, but it is always required. Your prodigies might be able to see something once and pick it up quickly, but that's not quite what's being discussed here.

"Very good" can mean anything. You can be the third-best runner on your block. You could be the third-best runner in your area code. You might be the best in your state, or country, but still not world-class. It's a means-nothing term when comparing to the rest of the population.

"Very good" as a handwave to be able to potentially win any combat against any other character is lazy.

(07-13-2016, 03:17 PM)Aaron Wrote: I enter those tournaments to win gil point blank and simple lol. I won't even lie to you. That small chance of winning 150k is enough motivation for me.

This is depressing to read and explains a lot.

Aaron · **07-13-2016, 06:28 PM**

(07-13-2016, 05:57 PM)Valence Wrote:
(07-13-2016, 03:12 PM)Aaron Wrote:
(07-13-2016, 11:50 AM)Valence Wrote:
(07-13-2016, 09:22 AM)Aaron Wrote: But that's besides the point. Aaron my character for example is very good at both magic manipulation and swordsman skills considering he spent like three years training with it non stop before his current self I rp. Like, he literally did nothing else but train.Â

3 years is absolutely peanuts in that kind of things. A drop in the water at best. You will probably be a neophyte after that, nothing more. That's how it works with art, drawing, music, martial arts, swordsmanship or whatever else.
Not really, there's plenty people that have mastered similar stuff in shorter times both irl & in fiction.

To put it frankly, let us look at the 10,000 hours rule. In short, that's a lie. I could get complicated and explain it but that's too much work.

I guess what I'm saying is there's no static timeframe for one person to get highly adept at something. No where in my post did I say Aaron was masterful,I simply said he's "very good", also for clarification.

Gotta read between the lines there. Unless you know a timeframe to judge someone's ability in a field that was vaguely classified as "very good"?

In 3 years? Are you kidding me?

Well, in any case, I never saw anyone like that in my entire life. I have been to art schools, do art myself, and anyone that tells me outright that they master their field (drawing, painting, whatever you fancy), after just 3 years, is suffering from heavy delusions.

Seriously... 3 years.

Will have to agree to disagree on that one, but that's just silly. Go tell me that a musician gets a master of his art after just 3 years. Really?

I'm certainly not saying that there is a fixed timeframe, I'm just saying that be it a master, or 'very good', after 3 years, is silly to me. Unless we somehow put a very different meaning behind 'very good'.

Very good is in the eye of the beholder.Â I kept it vague to avoid certain people just waiting to jump on me about it lol.

I've two friends, one who started drawing literally a year ago and he's already better than some of the artist I've seen on deviantart. And another who's taken up tae kwon do I think four years ago and he could probably beat up everyone else I've ever met.

Take this with a grain of salt, I don't really care. My initial point was that being good at something doesn't have a timeframe. Those people you see flaunting 4 year bachelor's degree in fields probably have a amateur that put half the time in and is on a comparable level to them living somewhere simply because they had nothing else to do and a ton of free time.

Ever heard the phrase hard work with no inherent talent is useless?

ALL THAT ASIDE THOUGH. If anyone's really thinking I have my character handwave their fighting experience as a showboat he could probably beat anyone up. All I can say is , lol. I even stated in my initial post that sometimes having Aaron win a fight because of dice felt weird to me. That was like the third sentence of my post.

Idk, some people just zone in on what they want to pick at I guess.

Aaron · **07-13-2016, 06:31 PM**

(07-13-2016, 06:17 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: You can give a rough split on these sorts of things by defining to what extent you pursue a hobby. Let's say you enjoy running.

An amateur might do some jogging on a treadmill in the comfort of their own home. Just hit that target heartrate and work up a sweat.

A hobbyist might push for mileage, trying to push themselves without diverting long, long hours into it and having it detract from the rest of their life. They might enter a marathon for fun, and not mind if they don't even finish.

A serious hobbyist will be entering marathons with the intention of completing them. As you go up the seriousness curve, you start tracking those times and working harder towards them on the weekend to be able to outperform yourself.

A marathon doesn't necessarily make you a runner, though. Some people can just trudge through it with endless energy and endurance without actually going fast. Some people are born sprinters, and able to do a 4 minute mile but not much else.

Then you get into the professional levels of things, people who have dedicated years of their lives to setting records and performing at a world-class level. And then you have the flipside of that: Someone who's been pushing on a treadmill for six years and just doesn't have the means to improve.

Someone who has tried to qualify for olympic trials and never made it. Someone who has entered, and failed to complete, ten marathons in as many months. Time spent does not equal proficiency, but it is always required. Your prodigies might be able to see something once and pick it up quickly, but that's not quite what's being discussed here.

"Very good" can mean anything. You can be the third-best runner on your block. You could be the third-best runner in your area code. You might be the best in your state, or country, but still not world-class. It's a means-nothing term when comparing to the rest of the population.

"Very good" as a handwave to be able to potentially win any combat against any other character is lazy.

(07-13-2016, 03:17 PM)Aaron Wrote: I enter those tournaments to win gil point blank and simple lol. I won't even lie to you. That small chance of winning 150k is enough motivation for me.

This is depressing to read and explains a lot.

Aye man I just say it how it is. I have no shame admitting it. Now, I may not need the gil, but hell you got randoms who don't even rp entering to win sometimes.

Nebbs · **07-13-2016, 06:48 PM**

I think I have mostly played characters that get good through RP and not through background. It gives you deapth and breadth and establishes them.

Warren Castille · **07-13-2016, 07:12 PM**

A 4-year bachelors is considered entry-level into a profession. You go to school for four years so you can begin at the bottom.

I was the best Smash player in my neighborhood, too. Then I met someone on a tournament level and got absolutely crushed. Experience is relative to your surroundings.

Aaron · **07-13-2016, 07:20 PM**

(07-13-2016, 07:12 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: A 4-year bachelors is considered entry-level into a profession. You go to school for four years so you can begin at the bottom.

I was the best Smash player in my neighborhood, too. Then I met someone on a tournament level and got absolutely crushed. Experience is relative to your surroundings.

I understand that, but then again think about it.

If it's relative to your surroundings,

CHARACTER A & CHARACTER B both trained for 3 years.

CHARACTER A went through a Galen Marek/ Darth Vader esque regime.

CHARACTER B went through a every other week type regime.

Both after their three years fight each other. Which do you think would be noticeably better at it? CHARACTER A or CHARACTER B?

Edit- Neither of these refer to my character also.

Caspar · **07-13-2016, 07:37 PM**

I think that would depend on the personality of the trainee and the nature of the training method. The most vicious, draconian training regimen ever won't work if you don't respond to it as intended. Like getting conciliatory or obstinate from mistreatment. Its not the greatest example because it involves a lot of variables. A lot of the draconian techniques Virara went through, for instance, only worked specifically because of her "blank slate" pliability, and are not meant narratively to be ideal or even good training methods for others. The instructor, too, was fairly twisted and some training might have just been harsh out of sadism. It only worked because her training was tailored to sculpt her into a specific kind of individual that had already (maybe) begun to take shape.

Every other week implies less time too so the qualitative comparison is kinda undermined by that.

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[Discussion] Weaknesses for Versitality

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes