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Syf · **08-13-2016, 09:40 PM**

Every class in the game is dps. It's just up to the healer to determine how to weave dps in to help with the speed of the dungeon. You'll also catch the most flak because your influence is the most noticable.

Charity322 · **08-14-2016, 12:15 AM**

I thought Cleric Stance was something to be used when solo, not for dungeons. I do use attack spells if noone needs healing, but I stay out of Cleric Stance so I'm ready to heal again when needed.

But then I'm probably the kind of person you want least in your party because I'm not the best at fighting and what I've learned from around here is that people are really really judgemental.

Arrelaine · **08-14-2016, 12:24 AM**

Man, like I don't even care what the heck you're doing as long as the bad guys are dying and we're not. I've tanked, dps'd and healed and I just don't care. Someone's not as efficient because they're not doing the rotation right? Don't care. Someone's not stance dancing, but the group's staying alive? Don't care. I stance dance because I'm bored, I don't stance dance when I'm experiencing a little lag (a rare instance).

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **08-14-2016, 12:30 AM**

(08-14-2016, 12:15 AM)Charity322 Wrote: I thought Cleric Stance was something to be used when solo, not for dungeons. I do use attack spells if noone needs healing, but I stay out of Cleric Stance so I'm ready to heal again when needed.

But then I'm probably the kind of person you want least in your party because I'm not the best at fighting and what I've learned from around here is that people are really really judgemental.

It really depends on the player, the party, and the dungeon. Usually in that order. Certain dungeons are much more "healer as side DPS" friendly. Usually up to Halatali and then certain others stand out, like the first room of Dzemael Darkhold (when in the light, people take almost no damage).

For me, I have different hotbars/crossbars for dedicated healing and DPS/emergency heals that I use a Cleric Stance macro to swap with. That way, I can get the full utility of skills while also knowing when it's on or off. Of course, if you aren't CNJ/WHM, there are usually better cross-class skills to get before Cleric Stance. It's not really worth putting it super early. (Like for me, I'll grab either protect or swiftcast first, then the other, then stoneskin, then eye for eye, and then cleric stance, followed by whatever else might be missing, like virus or aero if there's room).

Caspar · **08-14-2016, 02:46 AM**

I understand the desire to not DPS as you chose the role specifically to be support rather than offense, but the strain on healers in normal dungeons is quite low. There will be a lot of downtime where you are not healing the tank at all, more if the tank properly manages cool downs. If a healer doesn't DPS in that downtime, what else would they be doing?

Charity322 · **08-14-2016, 02:56 AM**

I have no problem DPSing; I just don't like switching in and out of Cleric Stance. I can still sling offensive spells while not in CS and I don't need to worry about forgetting to turn it off or fumbling to do it while I should be doing something else.

When I'm focusing on enemies or on people I need to heal I don't notice what I have on sometimes. I did half a dungeon once before I noticed that my Rogue had never turned Kiss of the Wasp on. XD

Tyndles · **08-14-2016, 03:05 AM**

If the healer or ttank is in like..180 gear or something, I'm not going to fret about it, or if they tell the party, "hey I'm new." Â or "hey I'm on the phone, so I might not be able to add much dps" Â I won't care, as long as they get the basics done. Â But if you're going too queue up with random people, you should expect to do the norm, and that's weave some damage in.

Thorson · **08-14-2016, 03:31 AM**

While I'm not one to QQ at healers for not DPSing in most content, I can't seem to wrap my head around the "why" of it. Like... if I played a WHM or a SCH and just sat there healing all day (or throwing a HoT/heal in my tank's direction when he gets below ~90% HP), I'd want to blow my head off. It's like if I chose to play a DRG and decided "You know what? Positionals aren't really my thing." Can I do it? Sure. Can I get away with it? Probably. But how can you tolerate it? FFXIV is already -- imo -- a pretty stale game most of the time, so why make it even worse?

...But I mean, to each their own, I suppose. And the argument of "No matter what I do, I'll get chewed out for the opposite!" is moot, since you're not being chewed out for not healing or not DPSing, you're getting chewed out for not doing both proficiently. A good healer -- as some have already stated -- can do both harmoniously and without sacrificing the other.

This is a little off-topic, but really, all it takes if you aren't comfortable with your ability to do something (utilizing cleric stance in this case) is a quick, civil "Sorry if I don't hop into Cleric too much, guys. I haven't wrapped my head around it enough to be confident flipping it on and off in this content" at the beginning of the dungeon.

tl;dr for the second bit: Just own up to the fact that maybe you're just not at a point where you can comfortably use cleric stance (or any toggle skill; deliverance comes to mind for WARs). We're not all perfect right off the bat, and barring Savage content, I don't think anyone's expecting perfection from you.

Valence · **08-14-2016, 04:13 AM**

(08-13-2016, 07:37 PM)Cassandra Wrote: I'll admit, unless otherwise notified beforehand, getting a healer who doesn't contribute any DPS can be incredibly frustrating. In my experiences, you can generally tell between those giving an honest effort but are merely nervous compared to the lazy players. What usually gets me is when said healer is jumping around or using emotes because they clearly have nothing else to do. It'll forever baffle me howÂ they find this fun, but to each their own, I suppose.Â

The part that irks me though is whenever you hear the "that's just their playstyle" arguments. Oh, so your playstyle consists of ignoring half your abilities? I sincerely doubt those same players would appreciate if the tank and DPS did the same.

It's lot less easy to see when tanks and especially DPS are doing that. You don't exactly have an eye on their rotation, or at least it's rather hard. Sure you can see that some BLM are not using enochian or whatever. It's just harder.

And I find that most people are hypocrites when it comes to point the finger at lazy healers when most of the DPS out there are not even able to do more than spamming a single button. And suddenly, when you want to point it out, well you can't because pointing out bad DPS out of parsers is not super tolerated (which is understandable).

How can people deal less than 300 DPS at lvl60 content? Even by spamming the basic attack skill they should do above...

(08-14-2016, 03:31 AM)Thorson Wrote: tl;dr for the second bit: Just own up to the fact that maybe you're just not at a point where you can comfortably use cleric stance (or any toggle skill; deliverance comes to mind for WARs). We're not all perfect right off the bat, and barring Savage content, I don't think anyone's expecting perfection from you.

If only they weren't expecting perfection... And that's where I'm coming to. I have seen so many players being absolute asses in dungeon runs, being more than just bossy and telling people what to do and how shit they are or whatever. And most of the time, when they do it that way (meaning, rudely), they are actually the first ones to be totally shit at the game themselves. I see people spewing so many inconsistent arguments or random bullshit they heard here or there and took for the absolute truth no matter what, without even understanding the mechanics behind...

Oh yeah I get it, most people are really bad at that game (gasp, I said it, I'm so arrogant!). Well yeah, it's true. Just have to see parsing results really.

But I don't mind that that much. Can be annoying but I came to the understanding that everyone has different levels of proficiency and asking everyone to be raid ready is as silly as asking your average joe running as fast as Usain Bolt.

What I find ridiculous is the amount of self appointed experts that actually know nothing and are actual shit at their roles. Those spread like mushrooms.

Kilieit · **08-14-2016, 04:37 AM**

(08-14-2016, 03:31 AM)Thorson Wrote:
While I'm not one to QQ at healers for not DPSing in most content, I can't seem to wrap my head around the "why" of it. Like... if I played a WHM or a SCH and just sat there healing all day (or throwing a HoT/heal in my tank's direction when he gets below ~90% HP), I'd want to blow my head off. It's like if I chose to play a DRG and decided "You know what? Positionals aren't really my thing." Can I do it? Sure. Can I get away with it? Probably. But how can you tolerate it? FFXIV is already -- imo -- a pretty stale game most of the time, so why make it even worse?

I think because that's the way healers play in most other MMO's. So if you mained + enjoyed maining a healer in, say, WoW, then yeah, you're not gonna find "playing the healing role and nothing else" boring because it's what you're used to, it's the style of gameplay you chose, presumably because it's the right pace for you.

And yeah, you're probably gonna find it annoying when you start a new game, assume healing is gonna be the same as it always is, and then someone is like "hey do this thing you find annoying and stressful or I'll give you grief over it for the entire dungeon run".

Like, I get that stance-dancing is required to excel at the healing role in ffxiv, but I also don't condone yelling at strangers to do it, or getting angry at them for not doing so. One doesn't know what's going on behind that person's screen - if they're new to healing altogether, new to ffxiv healing, have some IRL issues that prevent them from being able to heal and DPS (so they stick to healing because they're the only healer and there are two DPS already), or anything.

You seem like someone who's basically skilled at the game, and finds it easy/boring. I am not someone who is basically skilled at the game. I find it difficult. I find stance-dancing stressful, and mess it up more often than not. Me trying to stance-dance has caused wipes before. I forget positionals as DRG all the time, and only remember them on MNK because I'm at a low enough level where I still have space to put all my flank positionals in one part of my hotbar and all my rear positionals in a second, separate part. I'm trying, but I've been trying for 6 months now and this is still the level I'm at. If it doesn't come naturally to you, then it's not something you can just choose to learn instantly because a stranger yelled at you to do it.

I don't think that means, as someone else in the thread suggested, that I should be restricted to friend-only groups until I get ~"up to standard" (whose standard? How is a new player supposed to know about that standard?).

As I said before - if we aren't wiping, and we aren't running over 30 minutes for a dungeon, then we're doing fine. Maybe it's far from A*, but I'm happy with a solid C+ for a PuG dungeon run. I'd rather that than a D- or an F (even if the F's make good stories for the Vent Tent).

Zhu · **08-14-2016, 06:10 AM**

I do stancedance if the tank can take it but I chose to be an healer, not a DPS. If people are too entitled to respect my pace and play-style I just leave the instance. Good luck finding a new one. Maybe you would have cleared it faster if you didn't have to wait another healer to bark at.

If you can't clear the dungeon at an acceptable pace without the healer going cleric you should complain to the DPS people, not to me.

When pugging with strangers, nobody cares about what you want or enjoy, so don't worry about them either. Do these amazing heals and if people want -more-, give them less. Let them die or leave the instance, not your fault for healing like you're supposed to.

People that force others to play as they do really grind my gears. Especially when the guy's already doing his job but nope.. They want MORE.

***Teadrinker*** · **08-14-2016, 06:24 AM**

You can't tell me what to do.

Lamiaris · **08-14-2016, 09:16 AM**

What my point really is to all of this, is the following.

If you ask me to DPS while I'm a healer, and I'm stancedancing, please , please, please don't expect a miracle. Will I try my best? Yes, yes I will! And I will try my best! But please don't expect me to be able to bring you from the brink at just a split-second's notice!

Valence · **08-14-2016, 11:03 AM**

I don't think that because healing is only healing on other MMOs you should automatically expect that it's the same in XIV. Well, I don't think that point stands. It's FFXIV, not another MMO. I think you may more have a problem with how the game is designed rather than the people that actually ask you to do your job, and yes, I do think that adding a bit to the DPS as a healer, is part of the job. You may not like it, but that's more an issue of not liking something specific to the game itself (the same way I refuse to play MCH anymore due to that stupid Gauss Barrel, I can't deal with that, so I just stay away from it).

Granted, there is the argument that offensive spells for healers are only for solo play with cleric. That... could make sense I guess. I think I actually believed that when I started playing.

And believe me, I used to think the same at first, that my job was only healing. I didn't want to stance dance. I still don't like it. It's clunky and awkward and can seriously destroy your reaction time, especially when in PuGs someone starts dying quick just when you just went to cleric, and you have to wait the 3sec cooldown + the 1sec latency to get back to healing him properly (unless you have a benediction still up for WhM). But... after all that time I grew accustomed to it and it comes pretty instinctively to me as a reflex.Â

It's a bit like any DPS role that is not using all its tools, like dots or party buffs (GOAD motherfucker). They are not doing their job properly, and as said above, if people have a problem with the speed the dungeon is being run, then maybe it would be best to complain to the DPS before attacking the healer.Â

Not that I support anyone complaining that other party members are shit at the game, or mediocre, or not just up to their standards. Oh Â I get it, it's annoying when things are going so slow, but I believe that when queuing for PuGs, then you automatically sign up for potential issues and people not up to your standards. I say, to people unhappy with PuGs, then deal with it, or just don't take part in them if you are unable to get your mouth shut. I myself have a lot of trouble with some PuGs, but those are mostly the kind of ending up in the PuG vent thread due to their absolute facepalm ranking.

In short, I do think:

- To the people not happy with players performing less optimal than they think they should, then, deal with it.

- To the people not happy with players not using their whole skillset, then I agree, but there is something called tact and politeness to point it out. Give advice. And if that leads to a wipe, then deal with it. Everyone is not a professional cutting edge hardcore progression raider.

- Using all of the skills and toolset of each class, is an ideal to strive for. It's certainly not something you might get totally right at first. It's also why leveling dungeons exist in the first place. To the people disagreeing with that, then just don't come being the toxic idiot in leveling roulettes where people are supposed to be learning. And to the people unwilling to learn, then... What to say except that it's sad and not necessarily fun for everyone else involved?

Warren Castille · **08-14-2016, 12:07 PM**

Every role has something they could be doing that they might not do.

Healers can DPS, but it takes a lot of familiarity and comfort to do without letting people panic or die. Similarly, tanks don't have to pull more than one group at a time in dungeons. You don't see it as much in leveling dungeons, but in the 50s and 60s it is entirely possible to grab multiple sets of enemies at once. It's also not necessary, and people WILL flip the fuck out if you pull something "wrong."

DPS don't have to AoE on big packs, either: They can single target one thing at a time when the tank has brought a dozen enemies to a boss barrier.

Everyone's got a comfort zone. I've had healers drop ten seconds into a dungeon because I had the audacity to cast protect as a paladin while they were... not buffing the group. Instead of seeing it as assistance, they took it as me undermining and making a statement.

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If you ask me to stancedance one more fucking time..

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