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McBeefâ„¢ · **09-21-2016, 05:44 PM**

(09-21-2016, 05:22 PM)Zelmanov Wrote: I am a believer that in game achievements do not result in RP justification because and possibly only because the current storyline as is speaks of one Warrior of light and only one. He is solely responsible for a ton of stuff and so things like "Nidhogg SLayer" cannot work because you are then claiming WOL status.

and unlike warcraft where its a bunch of named characters and you play effectively as the infantry units in a campaign, this is a much more classical "One hero does everything" Story which does not lend itself for equal opportunity and inclusiveness.

The battle to kill the lich king is massive, I can see why people want inclusion.

Its why I will not fault someone for saying they were at the steps of faith, at cartenau (though that's a little hairy) or at the operation which allowed the WOL to enter Castrum Meridanum.

but saying you were the one who punted titan in the nads? Or Ravana? Yeah, no thanks, keep it to your rp group who have agreed to such stipulations

To be fair the primals come back constantly. Presumably some of the time the regular adventurers, GCs, and mercenaries of Eorzea have to kill them.

Titan has probably been killed a few dozen times, for example. Who's to say you weren't there for one of them?

Kilieit · **09-21-2016, 06:07 PM**

Being present at the death of a Primal is one of the few... no, in fact, I think it's the only part of my OOC achievements that made it into my RP Balmung storyline. It was a weaker manifestation, and he still had to get his ass rescued, but he was there.

It's implied that the strength of the manifestation depends on how many crystals are involved and (minor spoilers) what exact ritual was used (end spoilers), so it's probable that the beast tribes can't always scrounge up the resources to summon an EX version of their resident god.

Valence · **09-22-2016, 03:05 AM**

(09-21-2016, 05:44 PM)McBeefÂ© Wrote:
(09-21-2016, 05:22 PM)Zelmanov Wrote: I am a believer that in game achievements do not result in RP justification because and possibly only because the current storyline as is speaks of one Warrior of light and only one. He is solely responsible for a ton of stuff and so things like "Nidhogg SLayer" cannot work because you are then claiming WOL status.

and unlike warcraft where its a bunch of named characters and you play effectively as the infantry units in a campaign, this is a much more classical "One hero does everything" Story which does not lend itself for equal opportunity and inclusiveness.

The battle to kill the lich king is massive, I can see why people want inclusion.

Its why I will not fault someone for saying they were at the steps of faith, at cartenau (though that's a little hairy) or at the operation which allowed the WOL to enter Castrum Meridanum.

but saying you were the one who punted titan in the nads? Or Ravana? Yeah, no thanks, keep it to your rp group who have agreed to such stipulations

To be fair the primals come back constantly. Presumably some of the time the regular adventurers, GCs, and mercenaries of Eorzea have to kill them.

Titan has probably been killed a few dozen times, for example. Who's to say you weren't there for one of them?

That's where interpretation comes in and I actually believe that's not totally true. The way it's stated has always been ambiguous at best in the story, and they seem to say that while beast tribes constantly prove to be a threat with their primals, they actually go to great lenghts to show you that it's not something that happens on a regular basis considering the humongous amount of crystals required just to summon them and keep them fed, and it seems pretty clear that the first time the WoL has to deal with primals, they weren't summoned for quite a few years since the last time was Titan and Leviathan for example, slayed by the company of heroes.

So no, that's not something that seems to happen a lot. It's hard to tell though since the SMN class quests seem to be more lenient with that and tell a slightly different story.

We also have to keep in mind that it has been only a bit more than 6 years since the disaster at Mor Dhona and primals weren't really there before that, all emprisoned into the allagan contraption beneath the lake (which also seems to point that even if every instance of a primal is different and unique, you can't sommon several at once? Which would make the number of possible invocations even lower).

tl;dr: matter of interpretation, but I see that somewhere in between of the "summoned once and killed once by the WoL" and "summoned every week and killed by random people". The former is wrong by the lore, and the later sounds ridiculous since eorzea would have been depleted of all its population since long, considering that tempering usually gets rid of half of their enemies anyway.

I also subscribe to the "less is more impressive when it happens" view on that, story wise.

Skae · **09-22-2016, 03:56 AM**

(09-21-2016, 04:54 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Soooort of. In the case of Primals that have the power to Temper/Drown/Whatever it is strongly implied you're not walking out of the fight if you're not empowered through some means similar to the Warrior of Light: It doesn't have to be the main character but you have to be otherwise-blessed to not die during the encounter.

Not quite. We know, through the MSQ, that the Company of Heroes beat both Titan and Leviathan in the past - and I don't remember anything that suggests that any of them has the Echo or anything like that.
IIRC we are also told that the Immortal Flames beat back Ifrit on a semi-regular basis - albeit usually at a heavy cost.

Warren Castille · **09-22-2016, 08:36 AM**

I don't have the sources offhand but I think I recall the Company of Heroes being utterly decimated in those wins: hundreds of fighters with a handful of survivors. If you don't have the Echo, it tends to go poorly.

Gegenji · **09-22-2016, 08:40 AM**

(09-22-2016, 08:36 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: I don't have the sources offhand but I think I recall the Company of Heroes being utterly decimated in those wins: hundreds of fighters with a handful of survivors. If you don't have the Echo, it tends to go poorly.

I recall that as well. For Titan, I'm vaguely remembering something about there having been hundreds of people in the Company. And we only end up meeting, what, six of them? If they're all that remain after that, it's kind of telling how much of a slaughterhouse going to face a Primal is. Either it or its followers kill you, or you get tempered and get up killed by your own when you turn on them...

Kinda puts it in perspective that the Allagan developed the Summoning Arts for the sole reason of being able to fight Primals. The ancient Allagan with all their advanced technology and magic and whatnot still had to develop a special technique for dealing with these things.

Nodem · **09-22-2016, 10:57 AM**

(09-22-2016, 08:40 AM)Gegenji Wrote:
(09-22-2016, 08:36 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: I don't have the sources offhand but I think I recall the Company of Heroes being utterly decimated in those wins: hundreds of fighters with a handful of survivors. If you don't have the Echo, it tends to go poorly.
I recall that as well. For Titan, I'm vaguely remembering something about there having been hundreds of people in the Company. And we only end up meeting, what, six of them? If they're all that remain after that, it's kind of telling how much of a slaughterhouse going to face a Primal is. Either it or its followers kill you, or you get tempered and get up killed by your own when you turn on them...

Kinda puts it in perspective that the Allagan developed the Summoning Arts for the sole reason of being able to fight Primals. The ancient Allagan with all their advanced technology and magic and whatnot still had to develop a special technique for dealing with these things.

It was during a lore panel, but I forget which, where Koji said that the company of heroes sent in three waves of troops. The first wave got tempered and 180'd onto the second wave, while the third wave advanced on. It's possible that tempering has a cool-down because it seems to me it'd be a good idea just to keep blasting tempering and then eat the people. Evil

Show Content

However it wasn't ONLY the five people you help in the MSQ that survived from the company of heroes.

Show Content

We can infer from this screenshot that more then just these five people survived from the Company of Heroes and have, since the disbanding, moved into other areas and fields of work. For instance the Miqo'te, P'ebaloh, mentions during the quest, The Stench of Danger (IIRC), that she was in the company of heroes once herself before working for Gegerujuju. So it's highly likely there's more from the Company of Heroes out there, (gamer escape lists 9 people in the company of heroes), that we have either met and they didn't tell us, or we just haven't met yet.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

As for using achievements as an IC prop... We don't have the achievements you speak of on FFXIV. There's no achievement for "Server first" kills on Alexander, Primals, etc. Most of those achievements would just show you work really hard OOC to myself. If I had to use my own achievements as a reasoning for you to work with Aoi as a weaver, or a designer, or anything... Well I have all crafts to 60, every class 50+, all master books unlocked as a crafter, and specialist in three fields. Does this Make me better then anybody? Like Gege for example? Not really... It just means I spent time OOC to acquire all of this, and IC she remains as she is. Not tied to my achievements. OOC =/= IC

In a prior example, the notion of using Coil in good story telling was tossed aside, due to it being old content. What if it was Alexander Savage, which we'll get ithe ending too very soon? I agree with the sentiment if somebody can write a compelling story saying that they were with the Warrior of Light when they defeated Alexander would be more believable then Joe the Raider walking up to me and demanding me to look at their achievements IC and praise them as a hero god. It just won't happen.

I've seen some believable stories of how people fought with primals too, even if the reward doesn't fit lore, who had the weapon and would say they used X part of a primal to make it. Or they ripped it from the primal itself.

Don't use your achievements to prove your better then anybody, use your actions and knowledge to do so via RP. Anybody can boast that they have done something or are something, using IC achievements included. Nobody remember our infamous Tidus and Leviabeetus slayer Trachtoum? He's proof of good story telling versus achievements. Because, let's face it, all RP boils down to is good believable story telling.

Dante Abigor · **09-24-2016, 07:57 AM**

I think it depends on the splash importance of the achievement, how easily others could digest said claim, and how it affects the ffxiv time bubble.Â

For example, if I was rping with someone who clearly was rank 1 in pvp, they have the gear to match it, and they call themselves the current best in the wolves den, I personally would see no reason to ignore or argue that. Not only did someone devote themselves to their rp, they worked their /booty/ off for it. If acknowledge it.Â

If someone walked up and told me they helped kill like...Twintania or something, regardless of if they were present for the very first twin clear on the server, icly I couldn't even respond to it. Because it is a canonically debatable subject, it's not something that could easily be spread as ic info, and generally has the same feeling that the people who comment "First!" On things tend to give off.Â

I think it's dependent on a persons disposition as far as what they will and won't take, really. Like lore bending.Â

I still think rp and ooc shouldn't be overly connected though. Things get fuzzy quick there.

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In-Game Achievement in Relation to a Character

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