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Zhavi · **12-15-2016, 03:35 PM**

(12-15-2016, 03:08 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: I see this happen all the time in RP. Some Highlander dude who apparently is a hardened soldier stands in that crossed arm /cpose chuckling mildly with a shake of his head as some tavern antics takes place in front of him, far too mature and whatnot, so plagued by the woes of war to let his hair down. Absolutely not. I've engaged professionally with USAF Pararescue Jumpers as a chaplain assistant, and those folks are absolute party animals despite being trained killers and lifesavers (who aren't always successful in the latter). They are the coolest people you will ever meet. Now, that's not to say privately these people might suffer from issues coming from the job, but as far as outward demeanour, you wouldn't tell.

Some player-characters' also have some seriously laughable dialogue. My first thought is "M8 NOBODY TALKS LIKE THAT IN REAL LIFE". Yes, it's a fantasy world, but the level of theatricality in their dialogue instantly signals to me that this is not a dynamic character. They are more interested in presenting a certain stage act than actually responding or behaving like an actual person of the world.

In the sense of character building, I wanted to add to this, to help give you (Kattoki and anyone else struggling with deteriorating characters) options to think about.

For the former, when I'm putting in the history and personality of my characters, I like to think about how people in real life cope with the day to day. People have a tendency to have a push and pull. In terms of a soldier, you might look at it thus:

Pull: stress of fighting, being in danger, rigid military background
Push(back): need for stress relief, to let loose, unburden self of tense buildup.

In order to balance what the character does with how he is, pull from history (culture, socialization, society). The real life modern western push involves release in the form of living large, partying, socialization, and sometimes family life. However, you can also extrapolate from the different Eorzean cultures: a far Eastern soldier could use ancient Chinese concepts and philosophies, and engage in, say, tea ceremony, philosophy, meditation, forms, and occasional group celebration with friends & family where stricter social mores are relaxed.

For my character Tani, I utilized people I knew irl (a comptroller & head of finance, and a friend who is an adorably dorky math geek) to form (some of my) research in dealing with her profession as a bookeeper to help inform the push and pull.

Pull: lots of time spent indoors, deadline stress, familial obligation, fear of rejection due to work related causes.
Push(back): gregarious and aggressively social in off time, absolutely no familiarity with coworkers, promiscuous, dedicated to not taking social interactions seriously.

It's not necessary to fill out EVERY SINGLE GOD DAMN SPECK of your character's personality. I have, however, found it helpful to give myself lodestones that I can fill out later with rp. Tani's profession and most of her pulls are based off of events that happened in her life mostly pre-rp. Her pushes are how she reacts to that, how she balances it and copes with her drives, goals, and the things that shaped who she is. They do not form all of who she is, but they do represent most of what is obvious in how I present her character.

For the latter:

Honest to god sometimes I dialogue-check myself by speaking it out loud. I then alter patterns based on how much I just made myself cringe.

Valence · **12-15-2016, 04:41 PM**

(12-15-2016, 03:08 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: I have an issue even with this. Of course, you said inspiration from rather than being based on, but in any case, characters in existing media have a fixed range of responses and emotions based on the scripts they're pulled from. What happens in roleplay when a situation arises that doesn't exist in that script? For example, there may be a whimsical scenario that would emerge organically in RP that just never came up in another production's script. As a result, you will have no idea how the character would have responded because he/she is not an organic creation but a subject with a fixed fate determined by a script.

I see this happen all the time in RP. Some Highlander dude who apparently is a hardened soldier stands in that crossed arm /cpose chuckling mildly with a shake of his head as some tavern antics takes place in front of him, far too mature and whatnot, so plagued by the woes of war to let his hair down. Absolutely not. I've engaged professionally with USAF Pararescue Jumpers as a chaplain assistant, and those folks are absolute party animals despite being trained killers and lifesavers (who aren't always successful in the latter). They are the coolest people you will ever meet. Now, that's not to say privately these people might suffer from issues coming from the job, but as far as outward demeanour, you wouldn't tell.

Some player-characters' also have some seriously laughable dialogue. My first thought is "M8 NOBODY TALKS LIKE THAT IN REAL LIFE". Yes, it's a fantasy world, but the level of theatricality in their dialogue instantly signals to me that this is not a dynamic character. They are more interested in presenting a certain stage act than actually responding or behaving like an actual person of the world.

Base your characters off of real people, or at least flex them to be a real person with an actual range of character, capable of holding multiple emotions at once. Characters from other fictional mediums are what they need to be for the preexisting story. In RP, there is no preexisting story. A good number of our characters would put an audience at an improv show to sleep because of their incapability to respond to dynamic situations believably and plausibly.

If you want to play a certain occupation, think of real people you know in similar occupations, and use those for inspiration instead. Then, tweak as necessary to fit the lore of the universe (e.g. using period speech to match FFXIV's 17th thru early 20th century British English dialogue), and otherwise make the character seem like a product of the world.

Play real people, not characters, and I guarantee an amazing RP experience.

That's a fair and good point, but I feel that a bit disingenuous that you chose to snip that particular excerpt without taking my whole post as a context for it.. I mean, that falls into common sense. That's why I mentioned credibility/believable (I did, did I...?). I'm also trying to make sure my point get across with easier references, and maybe that's the flaw of vulgarizing things. Otherwise, yes, take what I said as tropes, tropes, tropes. Some tropes are good, some are ultimately bad (Mary sues, etc), and some can be both. I thought that fell into common sense yes...

Now then Seri, I know perfectly how you think on that, and I don't think I have ever had really diverging opinions, really. The art lies in bringing those tropes into characters that have their real life, their everyday life indeed, added to their unusual adventures. The problem with playing you or me though, is that our own RL tropes are fucking boring, to say the least, unless you have the luck to live a very interesting life.

The idea never was to make a movie (though there is nothing inherently wrong with pre scripted stuff, just not my cup of tea). The idea is to use the tools that writers use: tropes. Interesting ones, preferably. The things that will make you read a book or watch a movie or anything, and prevent you to drop after 5 min. Our own RL selves would be tedious as hell to watch, unless exceptionally talented writing painting them in a very peculiar light perhaps, but then would they still be us?

What makes the Lord of the Rings good and hooks you up? Reading the story of hobbit Farmer Maggot in his everyday boring life (though, maybe who knows it's actually super exciting heh), or reading the story of Sam, the gardener, that gets dragged in some cool adventures? Note that I'm not taking snowflakes like Legolas or perfect inhumane characters like Aragorn as example. I'm taking the real heroes here. The everyday characters that are not mary sues, and shine through their qualities and flaws. And ultimately their trope, that is way above the tropes some of the others from the Fellowship.

I'm not talking about the epic proportions of the end of the story. Actually I would myself avoid those in our specific cases for various reasons exposed above already. I'm talking about the journey itself. The everyday life they live during their adventure.

(12-15-2016, 03:32 PM)Faye Wrote:
(12-15-2016, 12:25 PM)Valence Wrote: I would rather disagree with the assertion that a bad or cheesy trope can be salvaged through excellent roleplay though. Both go hand in hand.

If the former fails, you are gonna cringe and die a little inside everytime the cheesy and rubbish stuff gets mentionned, however good the RP is. If the latter fails, then you are just gonna get bored.

Just a matter of personal preference and opinion, because I definitely do not feel the same.

Believe me, if you saw a few of the awesome roleplayers I saw, but that spent their time roleplaying lore breaking Sues... I wonder if you would still hold to that..

Val · **12-15-2016, 05:01 PM**

(12-15-2016, 04:41 PM)Valence Wrote: Believe me, if you saw a few of the awesome roleplayers I saw, but that spent their time roleplaying lore breaking Sues... I wonder if you would still hold to that..

I feel like the fact that they're RPing lore breaking Sues in the first place kind of takes away the "awesome roleplayer" thing, myself. If they were great/amazing, they wouldn't be doing it in the first place, or at least would know how to roleplay that without making it awful. That's part of what makes a good roleplayer a good roleplayer. Granted, it's largely opinion, but that's how I feel on the matter.

Faye · **12-15-2016, 05:28 PM**

(12-15-2016, 05:01 PM)Val Wrote:
(12-15-2016, 04:41 PM)Valence Wrote: Believe me, if you saw a few of the awesome roleplayers I saw, but that spent their time roleplaying lore breaking Sues... I wonder if you would still hold to that..

I feel like the fact that they're RPing lore breaking Sues in the first place kind of takes away the "awesome roleplayer" thing, myself. If they were great/amazing, they wouldn't be doing it in the first place, or at least would know how to roleplay that without making it awful. That's part of what makes a good roleplayer a good roleplayer. Granted, it's largely opinion, but that's how I feel on the matter.

^ Basically. Not to mention RPing a trope or cliche does not necessarily equate anyone RPing a lore-breaking Sue--in fact, it goes against the statement at hand about tropes and cliches being played off well. I wouldn't think it's being played well if it's coming off as "lore-breaking Sue" and detracting from the person's potential skill as an RPer. I've been RPing for over a decade now, so I've been around the block and seen about all there is to see. Smile

Gegenji · **12-15-2016, 05:43 PM**

(12-15-2016, 03:35 PM)Zhavi Wrote: Pull: stress of fighting, being in danger, rigid military background
Push(back): need for stress relief, to let loose, unburden self of tense buildup.

...

Pull: lots of time spent indoors, deadline stress, familial obligation, fear of rejection due to work related causes.
Push(back): gregarious and aggressively social in off time, absolutely no familiarity with coworkers, promiscuous, dedicated to not taking social interactions seriously.

Not gonna lie, this sort of simple breakdown to help crystallize character actions and behaviors based off their life is really neat to see. And seems like a good tool for... err.... doing the things I just said. It seems like those developmental thought experiments that would go well in the character development threads here on the forums!

Valence · **12-16-2016, 03:40 AM**

(12-15-2016, 05:01 PM)Val Wrote:
(12-15-2016, 04:41 PM)Valence Wrote: Believe me, if you saw a few of the awesome roleplayers I saw, but that spent their time roleplaying lore breaking Sues... I wonder if you would still hold to that..

I feel like the fact that they're RPing lore breaking Sues in the first place kind of takes away the "awesome roleplayer" thing, myself. If they were great/amazing, they wouldn't be doing it in the first place, or at least would know how to roleplay that without making it awful. That's part of what makes a good roleplayer a good roleplayer. Granted, it's largely opinion, but that's how I feel on the matter.

Allow me to rephrase what I had in mind: great writers with a real feel for acting.

Mia Moui · **12-22-2016, 02:48 PM**

(12-15-2016, 03:08 PM)Seriphyn Wrote:
(12-15-2016, 06:18 AM)Valence Wrote: Getting inspiration from characters of novels, movies, games, often goes a long way to find the right things and chemistries...
[SNIP]

I see this happen all the time in RP. Some Highlander dude who apparently is a hardened soldier stands in that crossed arm /cpose chuckling mildly with a shake of his head as some tavern antics takes place in front of him, far too mature and whatnot, so plagued by the woes of war to let his hair down. Absolutely not. I've engaged professionally with USAF Pararescue Jumpers as a chaplain assistant, and those folks are absolute party animals despite being trained killers and lifesavers (who aren't always successful in the latter). They are the coolest people you will ever meet. Now, that's not to say privately these people might suffer from issues coming from the job, but as far as outward demeanour, you wouldn't tell.

[SNIP]

Play real people, not characters, and I guarantee an amazing RP experience.

I enthusiastically agree with this as it reflects my own recent revelation. Â I have only one character I play and I was feeling increasingly locked into maintaining a specific character based on the experiences and traits she's meant to have because of those traits. Â That's when I collided with my own critique of storytelling that actively locks characters into being one specific thing because that's what we're used to in storytelling. Â Bad guy is bad because he's bad and can only do bad things. Â Good guy is good because they are good and can only do good things. Â Sure, there's subversion of those tropes but it's unusual to see a fully fleshed out villain character.

I've been better with other characters than I have been with Mia Moui but recently I concluded that it's just absurd for Mia Moui to ONLY be one particular way with only one particular mood.

Her backstory:

Betrayed by the matriarch of her outlaw family and handed over to the Coeurlclaw to settle a debt, Mia Moui searches to find the sisters that joined her in servitude.

This is a serious character with a serious mission. Â But she can't possibly be on that mission at all times. Â She can't possibly be completely serious. Â She can't spend all of her time dedicated to a specific thing.

So I've begun to explore more of her LIFE not just her plot driven actions. Â As an example, I had her take off time from work so she could see the Songbirds (of the Little Ladies Event earlier in 2016) in concert. Â And I've decided to add a few more whimsical things to her personality. Â If nothing else, this might make her more pleasant to be around and justify her attending more social events for reasons OTHER than looking for her sisters.

Nicholai · **12-31-2016, 02:01 AM**

Quote:Just make as realistic a character as you can.

This.

On that note, it's not necessary either to create an incredibly complex character. Sometimes even the most simple of character types can be interesting, especially if you own it so well as to make it realistic. Sometimes less is more.

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Unusual Character Traits

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