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Lamiaris · **06-18-2017, 01:10 PM**

No, I'm not necessarily talking about becoming a primal or summoning one yourself (although they could be valid, depending on the FC) ICly, but I'm talking about the ones summoned by say.... the Ixal, the Kobolds, and the Ananta for example!

Can Primals be validly fought in an IC scenario? Considering the beast tribes seem to be able to summon them with relative ease (given prayers and a hefty supply of crystals), is it reasonable to say a character could have ICly clashed with one as part of a plotline?

Likewise, is tempering (not necessarily Ifrit's manner though) a possibility?

Rookie Judge · **06-18-2017, 01:58 PM**

(06-18-2017, 01:10 PM)Lamiaris Wrote: No, I'm not necessarily talking about becoming a primal or summoning one yourself (although they could be valid, depending on the FC) ICly, but I'm talking about the ones summoned by say.... the Ixal, the Kobolds, and the Ananta for example!

Can Primals be validly fought in an IC scenario? Considering the beast tribes seem to be able to summon them with relative ease (given prayers and a hefty supply of crystals), is it reasonable to say a character could have ICly clashed with one as part of a plotline?

Likewise, is tempering (not necessarily Ifrit's manner though) a possibility?

Disclaimer: Information may be misremembered or misinterpreted.

Yes, they could be fought by normal people, though generally with heavy/significant losses. As in, people would have to throw an army at the primal and hope for the best. The Garleans might have the firepower to put down a lesser primal, though I'm unsure of that.

Of the primals, only Ifrit and Leviathan actively temper members of the Five Races (tempering and drowning respectively). Titan generally doesn't temper. Garuda attempts it as an act of desperation when the WoL first faces her. Ramuh has tempered the majority of the sylphs, though without ill intent. I don't think it's stated if the Mogglesguard, Gnath, and Vundu were tempered. Zantetsuken tempers whoever picks it up and turns them into Odin. Of the Warring Triad (who were all killed by the WoL and lack the worship to be brought back), Zurvan was noted to temper Garleans that were simply in its presence. Can't speak for the SB primals.

For those without the Echo, tempering is not only a possibility, but almost a certainty in the case of Ifrit and Leviathan. Likely Garuda too.

Honestly, I think only the WoL and his cadre of elite adventurers have a sufficient power level to take on primals with relative ease. For everyone else, they'd have to be part of a fairly large mercenary company/similar organisation, and even then most of them are probably going to end up as casualties. Plus if a single person is able to fight and defeat a primal (like the WoL did), the Scions and the GCs are going to swoop down on them and snatch them up quick (like what happened with the WoL).

LiadansWhisper · **06-18-2017, 02:49 PM**

So, if I'm remembering the story correctly, the Company of Heroes brought down Titan the time before the WoL gets involved. During that battle, they lost scores of their fellows because Titan was both killing and Tempering everything in sight.

Literal-Ghost · **06-18-2017, 02:56 PM**

Depends on how it's handled?

Primals are a reoccurring threat, so there is a demand/a sense of urgency to handle them whenever they crop up, and it hasn't been unheard of for groups of otherwise regular mercenaries to take down Primals before (The Company of Heroes).

The game also addresses that the Warrior of Light should bring other people along for some of the Primal fights. I can't recall which ones specifically, but I do remember several instances of Alphinaud or another NPC suggesting you form a party of your most trusted confidants before engaging with a Primal. I'm guessing in the 'canon' of the single player game, those other party members may be suggested to be regular adventurers.

There's no real reason why regular mercenaries can't/wouldn't take up arms against a Primal, to be honest, but I wouldn't make it a regular plot point or have your FC advertising itself by saying "YEAH, we go PRIMAL HUNTING!"

Regular ol' joes going out to kill Primals and coming back to talk about it is a feasible, but rare instance.

If you have a group of characters who trust each other and have planned out some kind of strategy for taking down a Primal, and the players who participate are ready and willing to take losses if it comes to that, sure.

If not, or if you want to make it a regular thing, maybe stick to hunting notorious monsters or voidsent or something.

Casa Kai · **06-22-2017, 11:28 AM**

Hmm as mentioned above, you can take up arms against them but keep in mind we aren't WoLs and will struggle against them. Personally for my company we treat them as VERY big threats that we try not to engage. We had a mission to guard some merchant ships but we were besieged by Leviathan and our whole goal was just to slow it down with cannon fire and escape.

Gegenji · **06-22-2017, 11:34 AM**

I actually have a bit of a question about how one might be able to deal with Primals if you have the Echo... but it's based off a cutscene in Stormblood and thus is kinda spoilery. However, if it's not just a "WoL thing" and is indeed an aspect of the Echo... there may be another direction to take.

Valence · **06-22-2017, 11:49 AM**

"With relative ease".

Which is still not trivial and doesn't happen everyday. It happens, and the companies keep an eye on them and the crystal market (cf Ashcrown Consortium among others, but those have mostly ceased since 1.0 when the Beast Tribe started to actively summon instead of trading their crystals).

When there was no WoL, the Grand Companies used to send huge companies of mercenaries like the Company of Heroes to the meatgrinder, and most of them died or were tempered (so died anyway, killed by their kin) each single time.

When the WoL shows up, guess who's asked to deal with those threats every time? Not companies of heroes. The WoL.

This is mostly a personal interpretation, but I really, really doubt a lot of other people face primals on a regular basis these days.

Saravahn · **06-22-2017, 11:55 AM**

And, as I've said before in other discussions on this topic, people seem to forget that tempering is not the only danger with primals. Even in their "lesser forms" they are still beasts in battle. Flinging spells, claws, building sized fists, etc. everywhere.

So even if you somehow take tempering (or whatever it would be called for the primal in question) out of the equation, you'll still have a hell of a fight on your hands.

Kilieit · **06-22-2017, 12:11 PM**

(06-22-2017, 11:49 AM)Valence Wrote: When the WoL shows up, guess who's asked to deal with those threats every time? Not companies of heroes. The WoL.

WoL is a busy bee, though. And the Grand Companies have already known since Carteneau that they can't rely on them always being there. Beast tribes will summon their primals when they have the crystals to do so, regardless of the WoL's current location, and the Grand Companies must have contingency plans for what to do if one is summoned while the WoL is engaged in something more imminently dangerous - a more aggressive or powerful primal elsewhere being one of these potential matters.

My personal headcanon is that the Scions trains and keeps a garrison of other Echo-users, sub-WoL level but still immune to tempering, and sends them against primals of an appropriate power level. So if the WoL is tangled up dealing with, say, an EX primal, or a new primal, then a group of lesser Scions might be sent instead to deal with the HM Ifrit that popped up at the same time.

But even then... there was that period of time between 2.55 and 3.X when the Grand Companies weren't officially able to rely on the disgraced Scions for anything...

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If a Primal were to be summoned under such circumstances, are the Grand Companies to wait around for their hero(es) in shining armour to return, while countless civilians are injured, killed, or tempered? Or are they going to fall back on other emergency procedures which place the burden of casualty onto actual troops who signed up to fight for their country?

None of it's ideal, but I think if it were, then the things wouldn't really be a threat...

Maia · **06-22-2017, 12:55 PM**

I'm curious about this question as well.

One of my FC mates brought up that there are now Summoner NPCs speckled into the Grand Companies, which implies that every GC NPC Summoner has encountered a Primal in some manner and survived.

Does this impact the implied rarity of your average soldier (and, by extension, adventurer) being able to take down one or more Primals? All evidence up to this point indicates that an average adventurer (or soldier) would be very lucky to survive against a Primal, but I'm wondering if having these new NPC Summoners changes things.

(I don't think it's a spoiler to comment on random combat NPCs, but if it is I'd be happy to use a tag.)

Valence · **06-23-2017, 12:47 PM**

I don't think there is any mention of a primal having been summoned during the WoL timeline that has been dealt with by someone else than the WoL.Â

It's a possibility, but not a necessity.

Erah'sae · **06-23-2017, 06:02 PM**

(06-23-2017, 12:47 PM)Valence Wrote: I don't think there is any mention of a primal having been summoned during the WoL timeline that has been dealt with by someone else than the WoL.Â

It's a possibility, but not a necessity.

There was at least one that got dealt with by the antagonist in the patches of heavenward. Â
Though I guess that is technically the same thing?

Silmanos · **06-23-2017, 06:26 PM**

(06-22-2017, 12:55 PM)Maia Wrote: I'm curious about this question as well.

One of my FC mates brought up that there are now Summoner NPCs speckled into the Grand Companies, which implies that every GC NPC Summoner has encountered a Primal in some manner and survived.

Does this impact the implied rarity of your average soldier (and, by extension, adventurer) being able to take down one or more Primals? All evidence up to this point indicates that an average adventurer (or soldier) would be very lucky to survive against a Primal, but I'm wondering if having these new NPC Summoners changes things.

(I don't think it's a spoiler to comment on random combat NPCs, but if it is I'd be happy to use a tag.)

So here is the response to this. Since it does contain spoilers to the SB SMN quests I'm sticking it in a spoiler tag.

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Maia · **06-29-2017, 09:57 AM**

(06-23-2017, 06:26 PM)Silmanos Wrote:
(06-22-2017, 12:55 PM)Maia Wrote: I'm curious about this question as well.

One of my FC mates brought up that there are now Summoner NPCs speckled into the Grand Companies, which implies that every GC NPC Summoner has encountered a Primal in some manner and survived.

Does this impact the implied rarity of your average soldier (and, by extension, adventurer) being able to take down one or more Primals? All evidence up to this point indicates that an average adventurer (or soldier) would be very lucky to survive against a Primal, but I'm wondering if having these new NPC Summoners changes things.

(I don't think it's a spoiler to comment on random combat NPCs, but if it is I'd be happy to use a tag.)

So here is the response to this. Since it does contain spoilers to the SB SMN quests I'm sticking it in a spoiler tag.

Show Content

4.0 SMN InfoSo during the Stormblood SMN quest line you learn that the Flame Captain who made appearances previously in the SMN quests has been training summoners. These summoners are among the very few survivors of those in the Flames who have fought Ifrit previously and have the aetheric aptitude for summoning. It still indicates that it is a very very very big deal to have survived that ordeal. In addition to that they are given soulstones that are found by Saint Coinach's Find. One can reasonably assume that the other Grand Companies are doing this as well with their members who have survived Titan, Levi, and Garuda respectively.

Thank you for this response (and apologies for my late reply.)

I run a comparatively "low powered" LS, with a premise that's akin to "ordinary people overcoming extraordinary circumstances," so I wanted to take a closer look at this to ensure that the road to becoming a Summoner was still fairly extraordinary/rare/lucky/WoL-esque. I'll keep this thread in mind in our upcoming post-Stormblood deliberations!

Momo · **07-05-2017, 01:44 PM**

(06-29-2017, 09:57 AM)Maia Wrote:
(06-23-2017, 06:26 PM)Silmanos Wrote:
(06-22-2017, 12:55 PM)Maia Wrote: I'm curious about this question as well.

One of my FC mates brought up that there are now Summoner NPCs speckled into the Grand Companies, which implies that every GC NPC Summoner has encountered a Primal in some manner and survived.

Does this impact the implied rarity of your average soldier (and, by extension, adventurer) being able to take down one or more Primals? All evidence up to this point indicates that an average adventurer (or soldier) would be very lucky to survive against a Primal, but I'm wondering if having these new NPC Summoners changes things.

(I don't think it's a spoiler to comment on random combat NPCs, but if it is I'd be happy to use a tag.)

So here is the response to this. Since it does contain spoilers to the SB SMN quests I'm sticking it in a spoiler tag.

Show Content

4.0 SMN InfoSo during the Stormblood SMN quest line you learn that the Flame Captain who made appearances previously in the SMN quests has been training summoners. These summoners are among the very few survivors of those in the Flames who have fought Ifrit previously and have the aetheric aptitude for summoning. It still indicates that it is a very very very big deal to have survived that ordeal. In addition to that they are given soulstones that are found by Saint Coinach's Find. One can reasonably assume that the other Grand Companies are doing this as well with their members who have survived Titan, Levi, and Garuda respectively.

Thank you for this response (and apologies for my late reply.)

I run a comparatively "low powered" LS, with a premise that's akin to "ordinary people overcoming extraordinary circumstances," so I wanted to take a closer look at this to ensure that the road to becoming a Summoner was still fairly extraordinary/rare/lucky/WoL-esque. I'll keep this thread in mind in our upcoming post-Stormblood deliberations!

I actually spoke about this very thing in a post about lore explored personal stories. Since the emergence of summoners as a job in the game, and the very beginnings of understanding primals, I sought out a loophole to allow my character to take up this job ICly. The above loophole that has been mentioned, where each City-state sends forces out to dispatch primals as they crop up over time, is the one I used myself, and one which is mentioned directly in the Ul'dah storeline dealing with Ifrit.

Jump to current expansion, we have that story that I used for my character, directly validated by the summoner MSQ. What I found to be the rarer thing, was not the survival of members necessarily, but rather the proper aetheric ability in those survivors making them rarer. Which was fine for my character, as he was a Paladin who was sent afield to help against Ifrit and so he gained the ability of a summoner.

The harder part of playing a summoner during the earlier community? When one managed to work out a story, one had to convince others that it was plausible, and after that, one had to reign in their own abilities and not be overpowered with them. Having all the summons doesn't make a lot of sense, because of the amount of ability and battle one would have to see to accomplish that or the number of ways you would need to figure out to work towards that would be a little ridiculous unless you put a lot of time into it. Having bahamut isn't out of the question, but is too OP imo, and of course certain primals aren't available period which requires an extra bit of imagination on everyone's part to make work.

Is being a summoner hard because of MSQ? I would venture in my experience: not really. Is it being a summoner made harder because there are a lot of people who either don't accept the job well in a low powered world, or RPers who can't handle reigning in their own power believable? Yes, much more so.

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