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Adelpha · **08-08-2013, 05:17 PM**

(08-08-2013, 03:42 PM)Myxie Tryxle Wrote: My point was that if a 9 point disparity from race is not significant, a 15 point disparity from flex stats is going to be insignificant as well.

This is a pretty fair point. Sometimes I forget that the amount of attribute points that you have to play with at level 50 (30 points total?) is pretty small overall. I think that's a small enough amount that skill could easily make up the difference.

Ashren Dotharl · **08-08-2013, 05:44 PM**

(08-08-2013, 03:42 PM)Myxie Tryxle Wrote:
(08-08-2013, 03:23 PM)Ashren Snow Wrote: as far as doing a 15/15 split between Mind and Intelligence, that's what I meant when I said you could do this to be average (at best), while if you wanted to be optimized in a role you'd have to pick being good at one or the other, there's no way to play an Arcanist and be optimized in both because even if you try to do things to cover the disparity, you'll still be worse than someone who didn't bother and just spec'd for a single Job.

As far as using Cleric Stance, it's possible for Scholar, but for Summoner they use THM as their sub.

My point was that if a 9 point disparity from race is not significant, a 15 point disparity from flex stats is going to be insignificant as well. Â At level 20 on the beta on my THM with normal crafted gear and empty materia sockets, 15 points of int would have boosted my magical attack stat which determines spell damage by only around 15%. Â By level 50 with decent gear and rank 4 materia, 15 points of int will be such a small difference you probably won't even notice it without a DPS meter to analyze the data (which I don't think will be available, anyhow). Â In my MMO experience, player skill makes up 90% of a player's capability anyhow.

As far as cross class skills go, we'll have to see what those are, but every job gets cross class skills from one additional class outside their sub. Â For example, warrior sub is gladiator, but they get cross class skills from gladiator and pugilist. Â I wouldn't be surprised if scholar got conjurer and thaumaturge cross class skills, since white mage gets thaumaturge and arcanist cross class skills.

Whoops, I missed summoner! Â Not sure what their cross class skill pool will be. Â Black mage gets arcanist and archer, so maybe they'll get the same?

It matters to progression guilds or people who want to do content on Extreme, or get through Crystal Tower where Yoshida suggested having every point of DPS mattered when trying to clear the different phases. 15 points is the difference between whether I'd pick you or a White Mage fully spec'd into Mind, or even a Scholar that's just the same, if I were trying to do progression runs. This game doesn't really require twitch reflexes like a lot of other games, so while skill will matter, gear and build will play a large part as well.

Sounsyy · **08-09-2013, 01:21 AM**

A lot of good points have been made already, but I wanted to add this one, since it was something I didn't see.

When you switch from class to job, you actually alter your base attribute points. Not including your stat allocations. So using Arcanist as an example, when you are Arcanist I am theorizing you will probably have about even MND and INT because Arcanist can both heal and damage. Then when you switch to Scholar, your stats will change to give you a natural boost to Mind. When you switch to Summoner, your stats will change to give you a natural boost to Intelligence.Â

Based off Yoshi saying that stat reallocation will not be easy to do, I think the best stat would be 15/15 MND/INT. This way you max out your best stat for both classes instead of just one. Now, for those saying that you're losing out on 15 points. You can make up for this with gear, materia, the native stat boost, and also the +INT or +MND that you get from being in a party.Â

So honestly you've lost nothing. If you're that much of a min/max-er that 15 points behind the curve between two characters with the absolutely BEST gear in game for SMN/SCH, then pump 30 points into whichever job will be your main and gimp the other.

Ashren Dotharl · **08-09-2013, 01:43 AM**

(08-09-2013, 01:21 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: A lot of good points have been made already, but I wanted to add this one, since it was something I didn't see.

When you switch from class to job, you actually alter your base attribute points. Not including your stat allocations. So using Arcanist as an example, when you are Arcanist I am theorizing you will probably have about even MND and INT because Arcanist can both heal and damage. Then when you switch to Scholar, your stats will change to give you a natural boost to Mind. When you switch to Summoner, your stats will change to give you a natural boost to Intelligence.Â

Based off Yoshi saying that stat reallocation will not be easy to do, I think the best stat would be 15/15 MND/INT. This way you max out your best stat for both classes instead of just one. Now, for those saying that you're losing out on 15 points. You can make up for this with gear, materia, the native stat boost, and also the +INT or +MND that you get from being in a party.Â

So honestly you've lost nothing. If you're that much of a min/max-er that 15 points behind the curve between two characters with the absolutely BEST gear in game for SMN/SCH, then pump 30 points into whichever job will be your main and gimp the other.

This is some good info to have, I wasn't aware that Jobs altered stats on their own.

Ashren Dotharl · **08-13-2013, 04:49 AM**

Came across this on reddit and figured I'd post it here since there was a lot of debate about how Arcanists stats would work.

Hvinire Wrote:Hey all,

In version 1.0, stats could be allocated for both the class and for the job. However, in A Realm Reborn, you will now only be able to allocate points for the class itself. As you know, the arcanist branches into two jobs (Summoner and Scholar) and as Yoshida explained in the Letter from the Producer LIVE, it will be up to players to decide how they want to allocate their stats on arcanist. Players can focus on one job or the other; or choose the respective stat to enhance - like if you want to focus on scholar's healing, you can choose MND or if you want to focus on scholar's DPS capabilities, you can choose INT. You can also take a "middle of the road" approach and maintain a good balance.

Beyond that, as Yoshida mentioned, we'll also be preparing gear with varying stats (beyond the type that players have seen thus far) that players can utilize to focus on specific stats.

Naunet · **08-13-2013, 04:05 PM**

(08-08-2013, 03:11 PM)Myxie Tryxle Wrote: Assuming the primary stats are intelligence for summoner and mind for scholar, you could do a 15/15 split and not be noticeably disadvantaged.

In a min-maxing environment, however, those 15 points canÂ make a difference.

This is really, really frustrating, especially considering how easily you can switch between classes. Jobs shouldn't be any different in that regard, but depending on how costly resetting your attribute points will be, this is just... incredibly silly. That and I find the whole mechanic of attribute points utterly uninspired (there's pretty much no actually interesting decision-making in this - you take whatever primary stat your class/job utilizes and put all points in it).

Hngh.

(08-09-2013, 01:21 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: So honestly you've lost nothing. If you're that much of a min/max-er that 15 points behind the curve between two characters with the absolutely BEST gear in game for SMN/SCH, then pump 30 points into whichever job will be your main and gimp the other.

Gear has stat caps, which means there is only so much of a given stat you can add materia for until you have to add something else. Stats like MND, INT, STR and such tend to come very close to if not completely capped on the gear itself, which means materia is going to be used for 1) capping out a base stat if it hasn't already, and then 2) secondary stats such as spell/attack speed and such.

So yes, you doÂ lose something by going 15/15. You lose 15 whole points of your primary stat. It doesn't matter if you end up being able to slot 15 points of MND or whatever in materia - in the end, you're still short 15 points from where you would be if you had gone full 30.

synaesthetic · **08-13-2013, 04:36 PM**

I'm going to operate on the assumption that Squeenix did not eat a bowl of brain cancer for breakfast this morning and that Piety is the prime attribute for arcanist (and by extension, scholar and summoner).

Naunet · **08-13-2013, 04:42 PM**

(08-13-2013, 04:36 PM)synaesthetic Wrote: I'm going to operate on the assumption that Squeenix did not eat a bowl of brain cancer for breakfast this morning and that Piety is the prime attribute for arcanist (and by extension, scholar and summoner).

This could only be the case if PIE has some as-yet-unknown bonus attached to it. Or I guess if somehow their spell power is attached directly to the size of their mana pool. Which I guess is possible, but that would make scaling reallyÂ weird.

Eve Malusion · **08-13-2013, 04:53 PM**

(08-13-2013, 04:36 PM)synaesthetic Wrote: I'm going to operate on the assumption that Squeenix did not eat a bowl of brain cancer for breakfast this morning and that Piety is the prime attribute for arcanist (and by extension, scholar and summoner).

I don't really know how the attributes work, but as far as I remember it was implied in live letter that you would want int as a summoner and mind for scholar. I can't source it or double check since it's not uploaded yet, though, so I'm going purely on memory for that. However it was very heavily implied that you would want different attributes for scholar and summoner.
Also, from the datamined info that we aren't really supposed to discuss, it looked like arcanist was purely dps, the only heal they had was for their pet.

Naunet · **08-13-2013, 05:04 PM**

(08-13-2013, 04:53 PM)Eve Malusion Wrote: Also, from the datamined info that we aren't really supposed to discuss, it looked like arcanist was purely dps, the only heal they had was for their pet.

This is correct. Unless Squee pulls something random out of their asses, ARC and SMN will want INT while SCH will want MND. Base classes don't share stat points with jobs, though, so at least while leveling ACN, you can dump points in INT, and then... I guess you have to pick whenever you get access to your jobs.

Really poor design in a game that encourages fairly frequent class switching. -_- I get the feeling it was something they overlooked because the majority of classes right now only have one job.

Myxie Tryxle · **08-13-2013, 05:29 PM**

Part of their goal here may be to encourage cross class play. Thaumaturge and conjurer have to choose what role they wish to fill, but they make that choice at level 1. Arcanist makes that choice but does so at level 30. If arcanist is equally capable at ranged DPS and healing through job choice, it reduces incentives to play conjurer or thaumaturge. Why not just play arcanist where you can do both without penalty?

I think we'll have a much clearer picture once we see the powers available to arcanist and its jobs. They may very well have different stance choices (likely through the pets) the way conjurer, pugilist, monk, paladin, and warrior do. It would make sense, considering the chocobo companion gets four stances (healer, defender, damage dealer, and grab bag).

Naunet · **08-13-2013, 05:33 PM**

(08-13-2013, 05:29 PM)Myxie Tryxle Wrote: Part of their goal here may be to encourage cross class play. Â Thaumaturge and conjurer have to choose what role they wish to fill, but they make that choice at level 1. Â Arcanist makes that choice but does so at level 30. Â If arcanist is equally capable at ranged DPS and healing through job choice, it reduces incentives to play conjurer or thaumaturge. Â Why not just play arcanist where you can do both without penalty?

I'm sorry, but what you're saying isn't making any sense to me. xD

Arcanist is not a hybrid class; it only does damage. You will put your attribute points into INT, all 30 of them. Jobs have separate attribute point allocations from classes, but apparently if two jobs branch from a class, those two jobs share attribute points. So if you do not have your crystal equipped for SCH or SMN and your character is currently ACN, you should have 30 points in INT. If you equip a SCH or SMN crystal, you will have 30 new points to play with, but only 30 between the two jobs. This is forcing people to choose one roll or the other, either healing (SCH, MND) or dps (SMN, INT).

Myxie Tryxle · **08-13-2013, 05:40 PM**

That's what I'm saying. They may be essentially forcing you to pick one job or the other. If one character can be equally effective as both a scholar and summoner, your choices for higher level magical play become thaumaturge (damage dealer only), conjurer (healer only), arcanist (damage dealer and healer). If the arcanist can fill both roles with equal effectiveness, there's less incentive to play the other two magic classes. Thus they force you to choose one job or the other the same way you choose between thaumaturge or conjurer. One class = one job the same as it does for any other class without two job choices.

Naunet · **08-13-2013, 05:49 PM**

(08-13-2013, 05:40 PM)Myxie Tryxle Wrote: If the arcanist can fill both roles with equal effectiveness, there's less incentive to play the other two magic classes.

I disagree, as THM/BLM and ACN/SMN bring extremely different damage tools to the table. Arcanist is heavily focused around DoTs and other debuffs (think affliction warlock, for those familiar with WoW), while thaumaturge has heavy burst coupled with a low-damage recovery phase. ACN/SMN will have ramp-up times and won't be very useful on short fights or against mechanics that require a lot of burst (think Ifrit's fetters), but once it gets going - and with the ability to multidot - it will be very good with multiple targets and whittling down a boss. Very different classes. A similar case can be made for SCH and CNJ/WHM, as we know SCH is likely to be very heavily focused around HoTs, while CNJ/WHM is primarily burst healing.

(08-13-2013, 05:40 PM)Myxie Tryxle Wrote: One class = one job the same as it does for any other class without two job choices.

Also to add, we know Squee intends to add second jobs for every other class over time, so this is not going to be an Arcanist-unique thing.

Ildur · **08-13-2013, 05:51 PM**

Not all people work on a min-maxing basis. If arcanist was somehow as effective as the other two classes put together, there's still people who will like Thaumaturge better from a design perspective (nukes) or from an aesthetic level (staffs and huge balls of fire/ice). The same applies to Conjurers.

As far as I understand, Arcanists will be based on DoT and HoT effects. Some people don't like those (design). In some encounters it might be better to have the Conjurer's one-time big heal instead of a heal that works over time. So they wouldn't be making any class less relevant unless all you care are about is how classes compare to each other via DPS or Heal meters.

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Arcanist Attributes and future jobs.

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes