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DAISHI · **09-30-2013, 03:53 PM**

Feel free to do this in your RP, but don't expect to be acknowledge if you do.

If you go into a place and describe your thoughts, I, as a character, cannot acknowledge having read what you just emoted. Because it was in your head. If you emote that you are distracted by fumbling about, being clumsy, looking lost, that's something I as a character can observe and respond to.

When you emote that you're feeling lost, I can't acknowledge it because it's internal to you.

IncubusManatee · **09-30-2013, 04:01 PM**

(09-30-2013, 03:53 PM)DAISHI Wrote: Feel free to do this in your RP, but don't expect to be acknowledge if you do.

If you go into a place and describe your thoughts, I, as a character, cannot acknowledge having read what you just emoted. Because it was in your head. If you emote that you are distracted by fumbling about, being clumsy, looking lost, that's something I as a character can observe and respond to.

When you emote that you're feeling lost, I can't acknowledge it because it's internal to you.

Isn't this just common sense?

K'nahli · **09-30-2013, 04:10 PM**

Did you have a bad experience with someone who expected you to be aware of their thoughts?

FreelanceWizard · **09-30-2013, 04:15 PM**

(09-30-2013, 04:01 PM)IncubusManatee Wrote:
(09-30-2013, 03:53 PM)DAISHI Wrote: When you emote that you're feeling lost, I can't acknowledge it because it's internal to you.

Isn't this just common sense?

Well... there's a variety of points of view on this, I've found. Smile

Personally, I don't emote anything about my character's internal state unless it would be obvious to an onlooker from her actual actions ("L'yhta's tail rises, peeking out from behind her shoulder in interest"); I prefer to show, not tell, as much as possible. Since my character's not a mind-reader, like DAISHI, I also don't respond to people's emotes of internal state unless, again, it'd be obvious to my not especially socially perceptive character.

Throwing out thoughts and beliefs that characters aren't privy to doesn't really help RP very much, IMO, because they can't be responded to ICly without metagaming. It can come off as needless emote showboating or even trollish if your inner monologue is disparaging of another character, as they can't respond to it ICly and just have to "take it." If you need to let a person in on what's going on with your character to help with RP, an OOC tell is probably the better way to do it as there's no question of etiquette at that point.

Gray · **09-30-2013, 04:20 PM**

Agreed. Â I am always pretty iffy when people do this, because I just don't know if they're doing it as an "in". Â I try not to act on internal feelings or thoughts like that, but if I know it's meant to grab people, I may try to work with it in -some- way.

The aspect of this that bothers me is there's usually things tacked on that are insulting to a person, or people around them. Â I have all too often seen people emote thinking and such, that is designed to let everyone know how unimportant they consider another character. Â ICly, we can't react to this, but it has displayed to all present that so and so thinks so and so is stupid, or ugly, or whatever.

Personally, when I emote something along the lines of a thought or a feeling, I will include 2 key elements. Â The first is for the player behind the character, so that -they- can become interested if they wish. Â The second is a hook for the character themself to act on, if the player decides to do so. Â Its just safer. Â There's really more to it, but yea, with so many different people with different styles, it's better to play it safe. Â Something visual, audible, etc that the character could have picked up. Â For example, the one you used about being lost.

*Bob enters the room, feeling lost, and approaches the counter, ringing the bell to get the shopkeeps attention.*

This is the "wrong" way, right? Â Yes and no. Â It is, because you're not not giving anyone a hook, and you're not being specific enough. Â Your character is -feeling- lost, but where does it go from there? Â How much, if any, is he showing that outwardly? Â If someone is paying attention, it's not impossible that they could notice that he's feeling lost, even if you didn't emote it specifically. Â People show what they're feeling. Â But by not being specific, we don't know if you meant for there to be an "in" or not. Â So while it may not necessarily be "wrong", it's a rather poor way to do it.

*Bob enters the room, clearly appearing uneasy. Â He looks around the room, his head moving from one corner to the other, eyes darting about. Â It's fairly clear that he is unfamiliar with the area. Â He looks back ahead, eyes fixed on the counter, and moves swiftly to it, ringing the bell.*

Same character, same scenario. Â Bob is still feeling lost, but this time, we know for sure he has some sort of issue that anyone present can pick up, and react to. Â Much better way to do it, in my opinion.

Oh, I forgot to put this above, so I'll tack it on here. Â Too often, I see people -reacting- on things they couldn't realistically react to, as if every character is so perceptive, and their senses are so finely honed... Â It's silly.

IncubusManatee · **09-30-2013, 04:24 PM**

(09-30-2013, 04:15 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:
(09-30-2013, 04:01 PM)IncubusManatee Wrote:
(09-30-2013, 03:53 PM)DAISHI Wrote: When you emote that you're feeling lost, I can't acknowledge it because it's internal to you.

Isn't this just common sense?

Well... there's a variety of points of view on this, I've found.

Personally, I don't emote anything about my character's internal state unless it would be obvious to an onlooker from her actual actions ("L'yhta's tail rises, peeking out from behind her shoulder in interest"); I prefer to show, not tell, as much as possible. Since my character's not a mind-reader, like DAISHI, I also don't respond to people's emotes of internal state unless, again, it'd be obvious to my not especially socially perceptive character.

Throwing out thoughts and beliefs that characters aren't privy to doesn't really help RP very much, IMO, because they can't be responded to ICly without metagaming. It can come off as needless emote showboating or even trollish if your inner monologue is disparaging of another character, as they can't respond to it ICly and just have to "take it." If you need to let a person in on what's going on with your character to help with RP, an OOC tell is probably the better way to do it as there's no question of etiquette at that point.

I can understand this point of view, but it can be used for more then needless "Showboating", or inner monologue to insult someones character.Â

To be honest, I use internal thoughts/feelings/emotes as a means to get people to laugh OOCly, not as a means for them to work off of-but to lighten the mood of things. Since I am usually involved with a lot of "Dark" or "Grim" RP in the past, it's part of who I am as a writer and RP'er to add in things that would offset the perpetual negativity that can swirl into an endless black pool and lead to people being rather unhappy (Which has occured more then once).Â

Otherwise I don't let people in on my characters thoughts, I explain emotions or facial expressions.Â

Now I can understand someones frustration (player A) if the person in question (player B) is using aforementioned "Bad" way's of internal dialogue/thoughts. That I can understand.Â

Still it's common sense to be respectful of the other player to RP where they can be apart-rather then watching someone else write a small book for them to look over.

DAISHI · **09-30-2013, 04:29 PM**

The context for this is several people I've been around that RP their internal thoughts and I'm not sure if they understand that I can't react to those. This just happened in the last hour in fact. The post is just a sort of public statement for RPers. If you're RPing internal thoughts, others around you won't necessarily react to you or your mood in the way you want them to unless you actually act it out rather than emote everything as an internalization. Which has previously led to some asking why others seem to be ignoring what they're RPing.

(09-30-2013, 04:15 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:
(09-30-2013, 04:01 PM)IncubusManatee Wrote:
(09-30-2013, 03:53 PM)DAISHI Wrote: When you emote that you're feeling lost, I can't acknowledge it because it's internal to you.

Isn't this just common sense?

Well... there's a variety of points of view on this, I've found.

Personally, I don't emote anything about my character's internal state unless it would be obvious to an onlooker from her actual actions ("L'yhta's tail rises, peeking out from behind her shoulder in interest"); I prefer to show, not tell, as much as possible. Since my character's not a mind-reader, like DAISHI, I also don't respond to people's emotes of internal state unless, again, it'd be obvious to my not especially socially perceptive character.

Throwing out thoughts and beliefs that characters aren't privy to doesn't really help RP very much, IMO, because they can't be responded to ICly without metagaming. It can come off as needless emote showboating or even trollish if your inner monologue is disparaging of another character, as they can't respond to it ICly and just have to "take it." If you need to let a person in on what's going on with your character to help with RP, an OOC tell is probably the better way to do it as there's no question of etiquette at that point.

Glad you mentioned metagaming, that's one of the big principles of the hting.

FreelanceWizard · **09-30-2013, 04:33 PM**

(09-30-2013, 04:24 PM)IncubusManatee Wrote: To be honest, I use internal thoughts/feelings/emotes as a means to get people to laugh OOCly, not as a means for them to work off of-but to lighten the mood of things. Since I am usually involved with a lot of "Dark" or "Grim" RP in the past, it's part of who I am as a writer and RP'er to add in things that would offset the perpetual negativity that can swirl into an endless black pool and lead to people being rather unhappy (Which has occured more then once).Â

That's a great point and a good use for those internal monologue emotes, I think. Smile

As long as it's done tastefully and carefully with no expectation of an IC response, I can see how that could add to a scene from an OOC standpoint.

Katanyae · **09-30-2013, 04:41 PM**

(09-30-2013, 03:53 PM)DAISHI Wrote: Feel free to do this in your RP, but don't expect to be acknowledge if you do.

If you go into a place and describe your thoughts, I, as a character, cannot acknowledge having read what you just emoted. Because it was in your head. If you emote that you are distracted by fumbling about, being clumsy, looking lost, that's something I as a character can observe and respond to.

When you emote that you're feeling lost, I can't acknowledge it because it's internal to you.

I'm hesitant to reply to this. Because you seem to have the imaginary "RP Rulebook" out. But I will anyway.

I have never had an issue with it. If someone emotes feeling lost, I assume that they put it there to be noticed. So I can react by acting on intuition.

When people on the street walk by, I can gather which one looks lost or might be FEELING lost. It's not because I can read their minds, but it's because I can observe behavior and feel empathy. Same applies to my character, only there is a different method of delivery.Â

If people are having inner monologue about themselves, however, chances are I won't rp with them. Unless it's in a forum setting in which case I enjoy it greatly.

So rephrasing your opening statement to "Feel free to do this in your RP, however there are some who will ignore you" might be more appropriate than speaking for all RPers everywhere.

2 gil.

Faye · **09-30-2013, 05:29 PM**

...and why exactly do you believe these details are being added with the expectation for you to respond to them? That type of magic mindreading would be godmodding/metagaming. Rest assured, I'm sure the other RPer is not expecting your character to reply.Â As Katanyae mentioned, there is no "RP Rulebook," and sometimes you can sense/see how another person is feeling.

If someone mentions their character's inner thoughts/feelings, it's not necessarily so your character can notice. It's more often because the other RPer wished to share those details with you--the RPer, not your character. I usually find it enjoyable to know things about another person's character that aren't transparent, that my character doesn't realize. It's dramatic irony.

While you may not like it, there's really nothing wrong with it, so long as you have enough self-control and awareness to stop yourself from metagaming. The only way I see this as a downside is if someone's "inner monologue" goes on and on for paragraphs, or if the "inner monologue" is almost the entirety of the post, thus giving you no action or dialogue to respond to (in which case, the person probably doesn't know what to write, so they're just BSing about their character's thoughts).

In a novel, the main character's thoughts and feelings are not given because other characters in the story will respond to them. They're given so that you, the reader, may feel closer to the character and understand more about him or her. You may not be writing a novel in RP, but the same logic still stands, which sort of throws the "you're not writing a novel" argument out the window in this case.

TL;DR: I don't think most people are doing this in hopes of being "acknowledged" to begin with.

K'dath · **09-30-2013, 05:36 PM**

As said above, show, don't tell.

That's not just good RP, it's good writing. If you tell me something is the way it is, I'll just have to take your word for it, and it comes off as you being an undependable narrator. If you show me, however, I'm more inclined to believe what you're telling me.

There's substance to back up the claim. The more tangible you make what you're trying to describe the more I'll buy into it as a reader. And that doesn't entail just over-fluffing the point you're trying to get across with a lot of purple prose. Good writing is striking that balance, communicating the exact amount of information for your reader to not just know but believe what you are saying.

That being said, I'd bet money that most RPers are not some form of trained/published authors, so holding them to that level of quality seems like some lofty expectations. Maybe calmly, politely, articulate this finer point of the craft to them if they take offense to you 'ignoring' them?Â

Also, on the subject of metagamers... Where's my table flipping emoticon? Because there's a point of contention where I'll just up and walk away mid-post. There's just no excuse for that nonsense. It is bad and you should feel bad.

Faye · **09-30-2013, 05:40 PM**

(09-30-2013, 05:36 PM)X Wrote: As said above, show, don't tell.

That's not just good RP, it's good writing. If you tell me something is the way it is, I'll just have to take your word for it, and it comes off as you being an undependable narrator. If you show me, however, I'm more inclined to believe what you're telling me.

I completely agree! But at the same time, we need to remember that not everyone is a good writer, and that ignoring/belittling them will not help them improve.

K'dath · **09-30-2013, 05:49 PM**

(09-30-2013, 05:40 PM)Faye Wrote:
(09-30-2013, 05:36 PM)X Wrote: As said above, show, don't tell.

That's not just good RP, it's good writing. If you tell me something is the way it is, I'll just have to take your word for it, and it comes off as you being an undependable narrator. If you show me, however, I'm more inclined to believe what you're telling me.

I completely agree! But at the same time, we need to remember that not everyone is a good writer, and that ignoring/belittling them will not help them improve.

I agree on that point too! Which was what I was trying to say a little further down.

I'm a big advocate of helping people to improve. However, you only get chewed out for attempting to be helpful so many times before you elect to stop approaching people about how they can improve and instead wait for them to ask. People take it as an insult, like they're not 'good enough' if you attempt to share your observations with them.

I don't insult people under any circumstance. There's just, frankly, no excuse to be rude to someone ever. Even with the mini-rant above about metagaming, I meant it to convey my pet peeve with a tone of jest... which knowing me did not come across at all and rather seems like elitist snobbery.

BlessedSilence · **09-30-2013, 05:53 PM**

(09-30-2013, 04:29 PM)DAISHI Wrote: The context for this is several people I've been around that RP their internal thoughts and I'm not sure if they understand that I can't react to those. This just happened in the last hour in fact. The post is just a sort of public statement for RPers. If you're RPing internal thoughts, others around you won't necessarily react to you or your mood in the way you want them to unless you actually act it out rather than emote everything as an internalization. Which has previously led to some asking why others seem to be ignoring what they're RPing.

(09-30-2013, 04:15 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:
(09-30-2013, 04:01 PM)IncubusManatee Wrote:
(09-30-2013, 03:53 PM)DAISHI Wrote: When you emote that you're feeling lost, I can't acknowledge it because it's internal to you.

Isn't this just common sense?

Well... there's a variety of points of view on this, I've found.

Personally, I don't emote anything about my character's internal state unless it would be obvious to an onlooker from her actual actions ("L'yhta's tail rises, peeking out from behind her shoulder in interest"); I prefer to show, not tell, as much as possible. Since my character's not a mind-reader, like DAISHI, I also don't respond to people's emotes of internal state unless, again, it'd be obvious to my not especially socially perceptive character.

Throwing out thoughts and beliefs that characters aren't privy to doesn't really help RP very much, IMO, because they can't be responded to ICly without metagaming. It can come off as needless emote showboating or even trollish if your inner monologue is disparaging of another character, as they can't respond to it ICly and just have to "take it." If you need to let a person in on what's going on with your character to help with RP, an OOC tell is probably the better way to do it as there's no question of etiquette at that point.
Glad you mentioned metagaming, that's one of the big principles of the hting.

Instead of getting upset, have you tried sending them a tell? Â Amazing how much OOC communication helps. Â They could still be learning how to RP or may not know the right way.

I admit I fall into doing it sometimes, mainly as I am used to RP on forums for many many years. But I guess I've also taught myself how to "look past" and realize when a person just wants to RP but might not know how to "fit in".

Karaan · **09-30-2013, 05:55 PM**

I must said that since I'm one of those -non-good writer (Because English isn't my native language) I like when people can give me hint or other advice on how to write better in English.

To return to the subject, I'm a bit in the middle, I like to see (as a player) the internal emotion of the character I'm talking too, but sometime, since I made some mistake how to interpret as a character those emotion people send.

I think if use a little in a rp, that can be nice, but if people overuses those, I see that as flooding the rp.

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