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Twinflame · **10-12-2013, 10:03 PM**

(10-12-2013, 07:40 PM)SessionZero Wrote: I think it's also important to denote that "nobility" is sometimes used as an all-encompassing term. Whether or not that is correct is semantic and not worth arguing. But the point is that many characters who claim nobility are simply from very wealthy families. For instance, Llaine's family is not technically, by law, noble. They're just ridiculously wealthy and influential, comparable to nobility.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with that. "Nobility" is not an all-encompassing term; it's a word with very specific meanings. It implies a great deal about society and a character's place in it. Someone who is simply wealthy, but claims themselves to be nobility, is like a sellsword claiming that they are a knight. Or a monk claiming that he is a bishop. It's assigning something to oneself that isn't warranted. It's a lie.

Ishgard is the only city-state with a feudal system and nobility, as far as I know.

Ul'dah has a system that some people might mistake for nobility, but isn't even similar. The hereditary power system of the Sultana is not nobility. Nor is the Syndicate. For one, the Syndicate is a limited number of people (currently six) which no player character can be a part of, and it is determined by influece and wealth, not by hereditary right.

Someone claimed there were nobles in Gridania. I haven't observed this and would request a source on it. If we're talking about Haukke manor, that was not nobility; it was wealth. The concepts are not equitable.

One of the problems with the use of nobility in RP is that most people who RP nobles have no idea what they are doing. The terrible ramifications of this are that they are forcing themselves and those they RP with to make certain assumptions about society which they are both unaware of and unwilling to follow through on. I ran into this issue in TERA RP a lot, because people frequently RP'd nobles despite the fact that nobility was constantly stated to be impossible in lore. I do understand the allure of RPing nobles. I RP'd a noble in WoW for awhile and it was a great deal of fun. In TERA, I RP'd a wealthy merchant who had inherited his wealth and power, but who also mocked those who referred to themselves as Lord and Lady because there was no IC basis for it except for a bloated ego.

What I'm saying is: if you want to RP a rich person, fine. You aren't a noble unless you're Ishgardian until I know otherwise (and I'm open to being shown otherwise), because to assume that nobility exists elsewhere is to assume that an entire society exists around some form of feudal system that grants you authority. Someone RPing someone from Ala Mhigo can say that there has never been nobility in Ala Mhigo, and unless we have lore about that, their RP is just as valid as that of someone who RPs Ala Mhigan nobility. That places your character in a rather precarious place, doesn't it? Are you sure that's wise?

The real kicker, at least to me, is that RPing a nobility-style character does not necessitate nobility, and yet, inexplicably, people always force it. You can easily RP a merchant prince or a something with a loyal base of servants and admirers, without wrapping an entire feudal-flavor aristocracy around your RP. Even if you want to do the lost son/daughter of noble blood trope, you can just make them the missing heir to a wealthy and dwindling merchant family. All of this can come packaged with your character. Why does it need to be nobility? Why do there always have to be nobles of every race in every city of every game? I don't get it!

If your character says they're a noble, they're either Ishgardian, or they're lying.

( This turned into a bit of a rant. Sorry. ^^; )

EDIT: I missed a lot of posts while I was writing this one. So I guess if you're a noble you're either Ishgardian or Gridanian or lying? That's really strange. I guess there's a school of thought for Ul'dah, but I'unno about that. I agree with Naunet that the use of the word's a bit boggling.

SessionZero · **10-12-2013, 10:06 PM**

(10-12-2013, 10:01 PM)Naunet Wrote: What, I'm not allowed to think it silly to use the term "noble" without the actual historical context of it?

Sort of. We're in a game where we ride giant chickens and shoot fireballs out of our asses.

LiadansWhisper · **10-12-2013, 10:07 PM**

(10-12-2013, 08:52 PM)Faye Wrote: Is it not rude to completely disregard what someone's character is meant to be?

Sure. Â But it's also rude to expect everyone to accept your RP because you want them to.

Quote:If someone tells me his character is a skilled fighter, I'm not going to think, "Oh no, he can beat my character up and physically force her to do things! I best never acknowledge that this character has physical strength and pretend that idea doesn't exist." Naturally, you can't force someone else to accept or acknowledge something about your character and I'm not saying you should try to make them do as much, but the point is, along with it being impolite for them not to, it also sort of breaks the immersion and the realism of the RP, and for no good reason, therefore it's disheartening and frustrating that it happens so rampantly.

Welcome to unmoderated MMOs, where thousands of players spend their entire days not giving a shit about anyone but themselves. Â If it doesn't break their immersion, many players simply won't care. Â Whether they're hostile in their "not caring" will vary from person to person.Â

Quote:People shouldn't be so terrified or appalled at the thought of another character being "above" theirs in a single aspect. RPing isn't about being the "best" or always being better than those around you in every regard, as ironic as that may sound for someone advocating that we pay attention when a character claims to be nobility. My character may be a Lady, but if a practiced fighter tries to take her on in a fist fit, my proper lady is going down, and she's going down hard. I fully realize why people don't accept the nobility of other characters--I just think it's petty and not at all fruitful for the RP, and should be avoided unless really justified/necessarily (I.E. If someone claims to be the arch-demon Son of Satan and Overlord of Hell and the most powerful person in the universe, feel free to ignore him).

*shrugs* Â People are weird. Â I just don't think that attempting to shame players into doing what you want is going to work. Â Most people much prefer yelling, "YOU AREN'T THE BOSS OF ME!"

Quote:Hence why "lore" was put in quotation marks and followed by "of our own." As I mentioned, the negative sanctions would be IC. If a noble is going around acting like a common thug, likely his peers among the nobility would shun him. If the RPer wants this to have no affect on his character and to continue acting like this? That's his choice, and no one will tell him to do anything otherwise (OOCly, that is). We're not trying to impose our RP on anyone else or force someone uninterested to be involved. And if he does decide to let the negative repercussions affect his character? Awesome, that will make for some great RP!

Yeah, I knew they'd be IC. Â My point was more that unless the person is directly involved in your group, trying to ICly sanction them would be downright silly. Primarily because you have no actual IC "power" to do so but what you have come up with yourself. People interested in your story who want to interact with you will be happy to play along. Other people? Well, they're very likely to tell you to get bent.

Naunet · **10-12-2013, 10:08 PM**

(10-12-2013, 10:03 PM)Twinflame Wrote: All of this can come packaged with your character. Why does it need to be nobility? Why do there always have to be nobles of every race in every city of every game? I don't get it!

Your entire post basically said what I was trying to communicate but ten thousand times better, but these lines in particular I must say: yes, yes, this forever and always.

LiadansWhisper · **10-12-2013, 10:13 PM**

(10-12-2013, 10:08 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(10-12-2013, 10:03 PM)Twinflame Wrote: All of this can come packaged with your character. Why does it need to be nobility? Why do there always have to be nobles of every race in every city of every game? I don't get it!

Your entire post basically said what I was trying to communicate but ten thousand times better, but these lines in particular I must say: yes, yes, this forever and always.

Find me an example of a situation where there is a King or other sole-ruler (i.e. a Sultan/Sultana, Queen/King, Emperor/Empress) where there is, correspondingly, no nobility.

In a system where there is a sole ruler, there will always be courtiers and hangers-on, as well as those families who - by blood, wealth, or marriage - can sway the direction of the kingdom/empire/sultanate. And yes, there are systems of nobility and "high birth" that exist outside of purely Feudalistic societies.

Edited to Add: It should be noted that I am not talking about a democratically elected ruler by any means. I'm speaking of Divine Right-esque systems of governance.

Seohyun · **10-12-2013, 10:14 PM**

The link above has a lot of yummy information, and an interesting debate so you can see both views. Lotsa' info! I don't mind getting tells either if someone wanted to talk personally. I know there's a few rpers here and there that play wealthy folk that are also willing to help out~.

Twinflame · **10-12-2013, 10:16 PM**

(10-12-2013, 10:13 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Find me an example of a situation where there is a King or other sole-ruler (i.e. a Sultan/Sultana, Queen/King, Emperor/Empress) where there is, correspondingly, no nobility.

In a system where there is a sole ruler, there will always be courtiers and hangers-on, as well as those families who - by blood, wealth, or marriage - can sway the direction of the kingdom/empire/sultanate in a given direction.

Edited to Add: It should be noted that I am not talking about a democratically elected ruler by any means. Â I'm speaking of Divine Right-esque systems of governance.

Isn't that what the Syndicate is? Holding half the power because of their wealth and influence, even though they personally don't pass down power through birthright? Anyway, I think it's been pointed out that the word "Noble" in game refers to the wealthy in Ul'dah, which kind of ruins my whole point because SE itself is doing the bad-noble-RP thing. xD

I suspect SE expected the Syndicate and other wealthy folk to fill this role in Ul'dah.

LiadansWhisper · **10-12-2013, 10:18 PM**

(10-12-2013, 10:16 PM)Twinflame Wrote:
(10-12-2013, 10:13 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Find me an example of a situation where there is a King or other sole-ruler (i.e. a Sultan/Sultana, Queen/King, Emperor/Empress) where there is, correspondingly, no nobility.

In a system where there is a sole ruler, there will always be courtiers and hangers-on, as well as those families who - by blood, wealth, or marriage - can sway the direction of the kingdom/empire/sultanate in a given direction.

Edited to Add: It should be noted that I am not talking about a democratically elected ruler by any means. Â I'm speaking of Divine Right-esque systems of governance.

Isn't that what the Syndicate is? Holding half the power because of their wealth and influence, even though they personally don't pass down power through birthright? Anyway, I think it's been pointed out that the word "Noble" in game refers to the wealthy in Ul'dah, which kind of ruins my whole point because SE itself is doing the bad-noble-RP thing. xD

I suspect SE expected the Syndicate and other wealthy folk to fill this role in Ul'dah.

Well, that's kind of my point. Â You can't say that they're not, or that SE is even wrong in labeling them "nobles."

There's also nothing to say that the Syndicate won't eventually evolve into a more traditional type of nobility down the line. Â Most noble houses didn't start out as...well...nobles with lands and titles or whatever.

Twinflame · **10-12-2013, 10:21 PM**

(10-12-2013, 10:18 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Well, that's kind of my point. Â You can't say that they're not, or that SE is even wrong in labeling them "nobles."

Lore is lore. I think it's a bit sad and silly, but it's still the book we're all reading out of to get things done. "Nobles" in Ul'dah refers to rich folk. I don't even know what nobles in Gridania are, but I guess they've got them there too.

On that note, one of my characters is a noble now. Okay then! lol

Naunet · **10-12-2013, 10:22 PM**

(10-12-2013, 10:21 PM)Twinflame Wrote: On that note, one of my characters is a noble now. Okay then! lol

*pats* My condolences.

LiadansWhisper · **10-12-2013, 10:28 PM**

(10-12-2013, 10:21 PM)Twinflame Wrote: Lore is lore. I think it's a bit sad and silly, but it's still the book we're all reading out of to get things done. "Nobles" in Ul'dah refers to rich folk. I don't even know what nobles in Gridania are, but I guess they've got them there too.

On that note, one of my characters is a noble now. Okay then! lol

*shrugs* Â The quest text called them nobles. Â I have no idea who they are, except for that chick we put down in Haukke Manor. Â Otherwise, they all seem holed up in that one section of town we can see into, but can't get into.

If you talk to the guard outside the closed district, he says, and I quote, "The district beyond is home to distinguished Gridanians. Â Commoners may not enter. Â That includes you, adventurer. Â Go back whence you came, or I will be forced to remind you of your place."

So apparently, we have Commoners, which would imply that those behind the gates are not Commoners. Â Oh, and we have a place, too.

Gee, where have I heard this language before?

(I agree with you that it seems terribly out of place given all of the other freaking quests we've done, but it's there. Â I don't know why it's there, I just know that it is there, even if it seems really strange.)

Edited to Add: I was mistaken. It's called the "Gentrys Ward." What is "Gentry," you ask? Well, here's what Wikipedia says:

Gentry (origin Old French genterie, from gentil, "high-born, noble") denotes "well-born and well-bred people" of high social class, especially in the past. Gentry, in its widest connotation, refers to people of good social position connected to landed estates (see manorialism), upper levels of the clergy, and "gentle" families of long descent who never obtained the official right to bear a coat of arms.

In England, the term often refers to the social class of the landed aristocracy or to the minor aristocracy (see landed gentry) whose income derives from their large landholdings. The idea of gentry in the continental sense of "noblesse" is extinct in common parlance in England, despite the efforts of enthusiasts to revive it. Though the untitled nobility in England are normally termed gentry, the older sense of "nobility" is that of a quality identical to gentry.

Twinflame · **10-12-2013, 10:43 PM**

Well, let's go ahead and shift back to the OP since I think we've answered the necessary questions from the first post. That is to say, yes, apparently nobility does happen in Eorzea. We're sort of low on details, but that's where RPers like us must fill in the gaps! If a nobility thing did get thrown together, I'd want to be in on that. My Miqo'te is Ul'dah nobility and has a daughter to marry off for cheap.

LiadansWhisper · **10-12-2013, 10:55 PM**

(10-12-2013, 10:43 PM)Twinflame Wrote: Well, let's go ahead and shift back to the OP since I think we've answered the necessary questions from the first post. That is to say, yes, apparently nobility does happen in Eorzea. We're sort of low on details, but that's where RPers like us must fill in the gaps! If a nobility thing did get thrown together, I'd want to be in on that. My Miqo'te is Ul'dah nobility and has a daughter to marry off for cheap.

A Linkshell to organize players of nobles would probably be a really good thing. Â Could interface with some other people to throw social events, etc., maybe come up with some intrigue RP.

SessionZero · **10-12-2013, 11:11 PM**

(10-12-2013, 10:55 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(10-12-2013, 10:43 PM)Twinflame Wrote: Well, let's go ahead and shift back to the OP since I think we've answered the necessary questions from the first post. That is to say, yes, apparently nobility does happen in Eorzea. We're sort of low on details, but that's where RPers like us must fill in the gaps! If a nobility thing did get thrown together, I'd want to be in on that. My Miqo'te is Ul'dah nobility and has a daughter to marry off for cheap.

A Linkshell to organize players of nobles would probably be a really good thing. Â Could interface with some other people to throw social events, etc., maybe come up with some intrigue RP.

I would be 100% behind this.

Twinflame · **10-12-2013, 11:20 PM**

I'm kinda overloaded on linkshells myself. Linkshells for everything.

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Nobility in RP

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes