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(03-19-2015, 10:09 AM)Ryoko Wrote:(03-18-2015, 08:41 PM)Bryn Wrote: Vaguely, yes. The term does describe a real phenomenon; we've all seen Mary Sues (possibly RP'd one in our younger years. Cough.), and as already pointed out, there is a male equivalent: Marty or Gary Stu. They are awful.Counterexample: Rhonin and Thrall from Warcraft are almost universally hated for being Mary Sues. Rhonin is a near-omnipotent time wizard and ladies man, and Thrall is Orc-Jesus, and nobody likes either of them. Meanwhile, the only genuinely overpowered female character, Jaina, mostly flies under the radar. People just dislike her because she tries to be so god damn edgy...
But as the Tumblr post states, that's Batman. And no-one bats an eyelid pun intended. In fact, he's a hugely beloved cultural icon. So I do think that accusations of Sue-ism are levelled at female characters more often, because female creations and interests are more frequently derided, attacked and seen as lesser.
For example, look at the vitriol levelled at the recent woman-centric media of Twilight and 50 Shades. It's not enough for these things to just simply be shit (they are), but hating on them becomes a kind of public performance. It's a bit like that.
This, I think, spins off of the perceived journey more than anything. If fans don't feel a character has "earned" their spot (due to whatever nebulous requirements any given fan feels is the minimum) they will grouse about it. It happens in fiction all the time. Hell, I can reference it happening in Pro Wrestling, too. Last year fan-favorite Daniel Bryan was nearly overlooked for the main title picture when the writers instead decided that returning part-timer Batista should be the new champ. Fans revolted, going so far as to completely derail live television events rather than accept the "canon."
It's happening again this year, too, with pushed-upon wrestler Roman Reigns (muh boiyee) being forced down everyone's throats. Reigns was a fan favorite right up until about December, when the writing changes tracks to hint what was in store. Since then WWE has been selling Reigns so hard that the audience is just completely rejecting it.
Thrall is the most shamany shaman to ever exist. An entire patch was dedicated to helping him regain his power because only HE had the strength to save the entire planet. A patch later had him stepping down from that pedestal because his wife (ALSO a Mary Sue self-insert that nobody liked) suddenly had orc babies.
If an audience doesn't "believe" that a character meets the standards of the narrative, we reject it. Batman and Superman and Spider-Man all have appropriately-tragic enough backstories (also a trope) but I think moreover, they already have an established cultural identity. We accept Batman because Batman has always been accepted. We allow ourselves to "allow" their stories to be believable in their mediums because on some level, we've told ourselves it makes sense.
If the original Star Trek had cast Kirk as a fourteen year old girl who was the most brilliant mind to ever enter into Starfleet, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
![[Image: yEROfKO.png]](http://i.imgur.com/yEROfKO.png)