(04-17-2015, 03:10 PM)Aya Wrote:(04-17-2015, 03:01 PM)Kayllen Wrote: We don't know for sure that all the houses in Ishgard are Elezen and/or that only Elezen are part of the aristocracy. What we DO know is that Elezen are the majority population, thus increasing the chances that they will reach 'station' by population density alone.Yes we do know that the major Houses are entirely Elezen (three Wildwood, one Duskwight). There's no evidence of non-Elezen Houses, so I can I turn your own mantra against you? Evidence please :-]
The reason the houses are Elezen is because they were there first. Its their city. Hyur are newcomers who have integrated over the past several centuries. The reason Elezen are better and more important is because its their city. Hyur are newcomers. Its not much of a leap.
Quote:It only flies in the face of what we know if we accept the very little we do know as the 'end all; be all'. Luckily that would be irrational and something that most people would avoid doing. Does your opinion that "It is likely that non-Elezen may have a harder time advancing in society" a possible and probable one? Yes, if not just from population density then from cultural examples of the Elezen seeming to be primarily the ones in positions of power. Is that evidence of racism? Still no. It MIGHT be argued that there is a class-privilege issue, though, but I won't back that horse without some more data.I disagree entirely. Racism is the standard in Eorzea. We know that Ishgard society is racially segregated at the very top (there simply are none but Elezen there). It is possible that beneath this very top layer this situation simply ceases to exist, and all live with harmony united by their common religious conviction; however, this just does not agree with my intuition. It is possible (as I said, we don't know) but I think this is a significantly greater logical leap than to assume that the same stratification is the norm all the way down.
Quote:We would still have great cause to speak of it, actually. Evidence is what causes discussion to occur with actual logical debate. Without evidence you're just arguing conjecture and that ain't no way to be, mayun.Evidence in the case of a yes/no proposition tends to settle the matter! And I would again turn your presumption on the head. National and cultural racism are the norm in Eorzea. To weight to overturn the proposition rests on those attempting to claim it does not exist.
So without evidence of your cultural racism assertion I state firmly, again, that without any proof we can only assume that national/cultural racism in Ishgard is actually -not- a thing. For now.
You've misread. I stated that you do not know if ALL the houses in Ishgard are Elezen. That was to state that there are more than the Big 4, which there are.
You're basing too much on your intuition and you disagreeing is irrelevant since thus far you've failed to prove your claim of systematic racism in Ishgard.
You claim a cultural Norm in Eorzea that is consistently proven to be false by the sheer amount of multi-racial cooperation that goes on every day, not only among the armed forces (though that is predominant), but also in in the aristocracies and bureaucracies of every city state. I think it might be fair to say that, "Racial tension, conflict, and divides were the norm at one time" but if you started to spout racial propaganda in public at any city state you'd likely be met with trouble.
Finally: Ishgard being geographically a part of "Eorzea" does not in fact prove your point. Genetic/Composition-division fallacy is still strongly at play, here. You need to provide proof otherwise.
In conclusion you can't shift burden of proof when you are the one making the claim. It doesn't work that way, sorry. You have made very strong claims to Ishgard's supposedly 'racist' culture with literally zero proof other than fallacious assertions. The burden of proof lies on you, since all I've done thus far is say "I don't believe what you're claiming based on the information you're providing".
I would like to state that this isn't an attack on you as some posters are getting a little heated. Let's remember that this is a disagreement in discussion only.
