(10-12-2013, 06:36 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:(10-12-2013, 06:20 PM)Faye Wrote:(10-12-2013, 06:01 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:(10-12-2013, 05:36 PM)Faye Wrote: Sadly, I don't really know what can be done about it, but I don't see it as a reason to abstain from playing characters who are nobility or otherwise in positions of power.
Putting aside the other game for the moment, in most MMOs (including XIV), the problem is that you're asserting authority over another player's character and story without requesting their consent. For a lot of players, that's tantamount to godmoding, and it's no surprise to me that the reaction would be icy. It's similar to the problem of "player-run towns" -- a lot of RPers take the standpoint of, "Who gave you the right to tell me what I can and can't do? I didn't agree to that!" They don't recognize the authority because they don't feel it's appropriate or fair for you, as a player, to assert it in the first place. From an etiquette perspective, IMO, playing a character that asserts authority over other PCs without their consent is never a good idea.
As for nobility in general, I think the usual complaint is that it's often abused by those who want to demand respect and power IC without playing a character that would earn it; as such, it's gotten a bad reputation as a cheap Sue-ish trope at this point. That, I think, is the core of why most characters brush it off -- that, and you have no way to apply IC consequences to a random player who ignores it; your only only option is to walk away from the RP.
None of that is to say that noble concepts can't work, though. Usually, they work best if restricted to a group of like-minded (and consenting) players. Outside of that group, the concept needs to be set up so that it doesn't step on other players' toes. For instance, the house may be disgraced or otherwise cast down (which gives you a reason to adventure, too); it doesn't have any real power other than money and reputation (which would be the common case in XIV, which largely isn't feudal); it's in charge of an area that's "off the map" and so its authority doesn't apply to other PCs; etc.
I think you've... missed the point? No one here has said anything about ruling cities and I should hope that won't come up, because that's really silly. No one, myself or otherwise, has stated that our characters of nobility have been giving anyone orders, or expecting other characters to actually follow any such orders. Aside from her guild members ranking under her and her employees, my character, both in this game and in that previous MMO I mentioned, has never given anyone else orders. Â It's not "asserting authority," it's expecting others to have the decency to respect how you've made your character. If you met the President walking down the street, you may not obey what he says to you (though chances are, he won't be giving you any orders, much like the noble characters in question here), but I think you would at least stop and say, "Oh, wow... was that really the President?"
Giving a character political strength is no different than giving a character physical strength. If someone tells me his character is physically strong, I don't say, "Oh, your character is strong? Are you implying he's stronger than my character!? Are you implying he can force my character to do things!? God-modder! Power-player!!" Why? Because that's ridiculous. So why do the same thing when it comes to political and social influence? Someone giving their character a strength does not mean they think their character is stronger than yours in that aspect or in general, or that they intend to use that strength to lord over other characters. It's just an aspect of their character, and one that's polite to acknowledge should it ever come up IC.
I think you are perhaps misunderstanding what Freelance was saying.
The act of acknowledging that your character is nobility or a person of power puts the character who is acknowledging your power into your power.
Maybe a better way to put it is...if I ICly acknowledge your nobility/rule, I am giving consent that you are, in fact, that person in-character and you do, in fact, have authority over me. Â Many players either resent this, or flat-out refuse to do so, because they feel that it is a form of god-modding that you came up with the concept in the first place if you expect your noble status to affect their character.
God-modding because you didn't ask them specifically if they were okay with your background choices, etc.
Which is why Freelance also recommended that such RP be done among consenting players.
Acknowledging =/= respecting/obeying
It does not put any character under the power of the nobility. The other character could be of equal or greater social standing than the noble, the other could simply not respect nobility/authority, etc. Nobility is not supreme power.
A good example would be this: I live in a really small town. The mayor of our town, to the rest of the world, to the rest of the state, and hell, to a large portion of this city, is no one of great significance. (Admittedly, I forgot his name, even, until I just now looked it up--whoops). However, if I bumped into him unexpectedly on the street, I would be a little startled. I wouldn't be star-struck like I just met a celebrity. If he told me to bow down before him, I'd refuse. I don't care that he has higher social-standing than I do, and even with that "power" over me, he couldn't force me to do anything. Still, I would probably think to myself, "Whoa, I just randomly met the mayor, that's kinda weird."
Or an in-game example: One day at the Quicksand in Ul'dah, my character happened upon a Miqo'te woman calling herself a Princess. My character, of course, thought what most rational people would: "Why would a Princess be hanging around a seedy tavern proclaiming that she's royalty? What Princesses even exist in the world? Why would a Miqo'te be royalty?" My character rolled her eyes, but decided to play along and humor her. Did my character respect her? No way; she didn't even believe her. However, she did acknowledge her. Meanwhile, another character in the tavern acknowledged her in another way: in reverence and awe that he had met "royalty!"
However, most people seem to shrug off and ignore other character's titles entirely, like it had never been mentioned or heard. And if that's what your character would do because of his/her personality, that's totally okay--but that seems to be an unrealistically common reaction in role-play, which is what I'm trying to say.
You should not need to ask other people's permission and approval to RP your character how you wish. All characters have strengths or benefits that other characters may not possess. Is your character strong? Intelligent? Fast? Attractive? Talented? Most people can answer yes to at least one of those. Should you have to check with the people you're RPing with to make certain it's okay your character is attractive, for example, because their character may be unattractive so in a way you could be one-upping them? Of course not. That's a silly notion. Characters should not be equal on all grounds. If that were the case, we'd all be RPing essentially the same person. It's not "god-modding" to give your character strengths or positive traits.
(10-12-2013, 07:06 PM)Theodric Ironheart Wrote: I'd love to see some genuine intrigue for a change instead of a constant string of extravagant parties and noble women shagging commoners with no meaningful consequences as a result of their antics. It's why I'm always so wary of people who choose to role-play a noble in MMO's. In the majority of cases it's done poorly and a lot of role-players do it in a way that allows their character to embrace all the perks and very few of the drawbacks that come with it.
It can be done well, of course, but that tends to be fairly rare. I'd be up for offering my grim Ishgardian noble for some intrigue based around what we can see in Coerthas, since I'd much prefer to work with what actually exists in the setting instead of copying and pasting the generic 'nobility' from elsewhere and fitting them into Eorzea. After all, the risk of being branded a 'heretic' as a result of an emerging scandal would make for some excellent role-play!
I agree with this entirely! It's a bit off-putting to see that so many characters who are meant to be "nobility" do not follow etiquette and break the social norms of high society, spend their time brawling, getting drunk, and sleeping with everyone, etc. and it's not even a point of conflict in their story. It's like the only reason for making their character nobility is to pull money out of the blue whenever they decide their character needs the funds for something and simply to say, "Hey, my character is important and can be fancy when he/she wants to be!"
That's why I think the purpose of this thread--sort of coordinating the nobility and setting up some "lore" of our own--could help ICly discourage that by actually giving rogue nobles some negative sanctions for their actions and set up some RP involving nobles who act like nobility.
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