No one is insulting you or your intelligence, please be courteous enough to do the same. Nowhere in this thread have you mentioned that you main a SCH, so I apologize for going into the workings of SCH gameplay when writing my responses. It was not meant as an insult.
I would like to politely discuss this, but if we cannot than this will be my last comment in this thread.Â
While I would agree that having a situational offtank-ready class would be nice to have(It used to be Lancer.), I think the important part of your argument is "in emergencies." If you and I are the people designing new Jobs and combat, we have to take a look at how often are these "emergencies" likely to happen? Between a good tank and a good healer the answer is, very rarely.
If we take a look at GLA's arsenal of skills, you can see that 9 of GLA's abilities have no use if the GLA is not tanking. (Rampart, Flash, Convalescence, Shield Lob, Provoke, Shield Swipe, Awareness, Sentinel, and Bulwark.) Each class has a total of 17 abilities. This means that 53% of GLA's arsenal is only helpful for a very unique "emergency" situation to a non-tank Job.
I have no weapon preferences for DRK. It was a class I was not fond of in XI. Therefor I have no attachments to it. My reasoning for MRD > DRK was purely style based, nothing to do with weapon. I believe they share more in common and work more fluidly together than GLA > DRK. IMO.
I've already covered what percentage of GLA's abilities are defensive cooldowns, but I wanted to compare that to what other DD classes have. Lancer's only defensive cooldown is Keen Flurry. 1/17. Pugilist's only defensive cooldown is Featherfoot. 1/17. And you are correct in saying that Lancer and Pugilist usually do not use these abilities unless they are solo or have taken hate. Now compare at 9/17 abilities that will not be used unless DRK takes hate, which in most situations, should not happen. At this point you've built a stronger DRK tank role than a DRK dd role.
I've stated before what my problem is with this move. It's a magical, deus ex machina toggle ability that magically fixes everything by completely trashing the concept of the original class.Â
For comparison, switching to SCH does not change the effects or traits of any of your class abilities. And unless this all powerful toggle changes Sentinel into a damage buff too, your DRK is still 9 abilities in the dps hole. The next obvious question becomes: why use this melee dps Job in a party setting when I could go DRG or MNK who are both fully purposed into wrecking face? If I wanted to bring a tank/dps hybrid Job to my party, I'd just take a Warrior, honestly.
Maybe if you fleshed out your idea for DRK a little more beyond Toggle and Done, I wouldn't be misunderstanding you as much as you say I am? Show me how your DRK would function and why it'd be more viable on GLA than on MRD or on a completely new class.
EDIT:
I'm seriously of the opinion that we don't really need any more jobs. But that's not gonna happen. I would say that 3 tanks and 3-4 healers would be enough. I think the problem with tanks is that even between PLD and WAR it's a constant dick measuring contest between which is better.
As for DD, I think the only extra DD class we need is a Scout type. (I'm a huge supporter of Musketeer > Thief.) Other than that, we don't really need more classes. It's all just aesthetics at this point. But almost all MMOs suffer from older classes getting lost between the cracks as they release more and more jobs, which almost always seem to be DDs that do the exact same thing as the last DD.
I would like to politely discuss this, but if we cannot than this will be my last comment in this thread.Â
(02-13-2014, 12:20 PM)synaesthetic Wrote: ...the point of giving a damage-dealing role to a tank class like Gladiator makes a lot of sense because they can drop their goddamned damage stance and offtank crazy mobs in emergencies...
While I would agree that having a situational offtank-ready class would be nice to have(It used to be Lancer.), I think the important part of your argument is "in emergencies." If you and I are the people designing new Jobs and combat, we have to take a look at how often are these "emergencies" likely to happen? Between a good tank and a good healer the answer is, very rarely.
If we take a look at GLA's arsenal of skills, you can see that 9 of GLA's abilities have no use if the GLA is not tanking. (Rampart, Flash, Convalescence, Shield Lob, Provoke, Shield Swipe, Awareness, Sentinel, and Bulwark.) Each class has a total of 17 abilities. This means that 53% of GLA's arsenal is only helpful for a very unique "emergency" situation to a non-tank Job.
(02-13-2014, 12:20 PM)synaesthetic Wrote: The lot of ya'll are just so bound up in the idea that DRK has to have a two-handed sword or scythe or axe and be exactly fuckin' like it was from FFXI because none of you can let go of the goddamned past.
I have no weapon preferences for DRK. It was a class I was not fond of in XI. Therefor I have no attachments to it. My reasoning for MRD > DRK was purely style based, nothing to do with weapon. I believe they share more in common and work more fluidly together than GLA > DRK. IMO.
(02-13-2014, 12:20 PM)synaesthetic Wrote: AND BESIDES I already outlined a way to make it so the only, the only, the absolute only abilities being wasted on a GLA-derived DRK, would be things like their defensive cooldowns. Which, if I remember correctly, other damage-dealers have and don't use unless they get aggro.
I've already covered what percentage of GLA's abilities are defensive cooldowns, but I wanted to compare that to what other DD classes have. Lancer's only defensive cooldown is Keen Flurry. 1/17. Pugilist's only defensive cooldown is Featherfoot. 1/17. And you are correct in saying that Lancer and Pugilist usually do not use these abilities unless they are solo or have taken hate. Now compare at 9/17 abilities that will not be used unless DRK takes hate, which in most situations, should not happen. At this point you've built a stronger DRK tank role than a DRK dd role.
(02-13-2014, 12:20 PM)synaesthetic Wrote: Darkside, as the name might suggest, allows the dark knight to indulge in their... dark side. All of the additional enmity effects are stripped from their weaponskills, abilities and spells. Their base damage is improved by 20% and their damage taken is increased by 15%.
I've stated before what my problem is with this move. It's a magical, deus ex machina toggle ability that magically fixes everything by completely trashing the concept of the original class.Â
For comparison, switching to SCH does not change the effects or traits of any of your class abilities. And unless this all powerful toggle changes Sentinel into a damage buff too, your DRK is still 9 abilities in the dps hole. The next obvious question becomes: why use this melee dps Job in a party setting when I could go DRG or MNK who are both fully purposed into wrecking face? If I wanted to bring a tank/dps hybrid Job to my party, I'd just take a Warrior, honestly.
Maybe if you fleshed out your idea for DRK a little more beyond Toggle and Done, I wouldn't be misunderstanding you as much as you say I am? Show me how your DRK would function and why it'd be more viable on GLA than on MRD or on a completely new class.
EDIT:
(02-13-2014, 01:21 PM)Naunet Wrote: I'll ask the same question: why is it possible to have too many tanks to balance but never too many dps? This game has a grand total of two tank jobs (and two healer jobs); that's absurdly low. I would hope they would add more tank (and healer) jobs in the future because of this.
I'm seriously of the opinion that we don't really need any more jobs. But that's not gonna happen. I would say that 3 tanks and 3-4 healers would be enough. I think the problem with tanks is that even between PLD and WAR it's a constant dick measuring contest between which is better.
As for DD, I think the only extra DD class we need is a Scout type. (I'm a huge supporter of Musketeer > Thief.) Other than that, we don't really need more classes. It's all just aesthetics at this point. But almost all MMOs suffer from older classes getting lost between the cracks as they release more and more jobs, which almost always seem to be DDs that do the exact same thing as the last DD.
