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Aaron · **06-02-2015, 12:33 PM**

(06-02-2015, 12:29 PM)Naunet Wrote: Being equipped to handle Ishgard content has nothing to do with leveling the three new classes, though.

I've also never suggested that leveling 1-50 should be unnecessary. I have pointed out that in other MMOs, you typically have to level through most of the levels of previous expacs but can move on to the current continent one or two levels prior (or at the very least, without having to run through outdated endgame).

Seeing as how the three new classes are Ishgard tied Im inclined to disagree that it has nothing to do with Ishgard.

If going by story based mmo as most imply SE is doing. These classes aren't known until after Ishgard opens up. A brand new person in their MSQ play through technically won't know these exist till theyre caught up. (Baring rp)

Going from a gaming standpoint. You should have at least decent knowledge of any class before you go playing with new toys. Its simple.

Melkire · **06-02-2015, 12:34 PM**

(06-02-2015, 12:19 PM)Telluride Wrote:
(06-02-2015, 12:01 PM)Aaron Wrote: But technically speaking to both new and returning players, everything pre HW (100% of it for new people, a portion for returning when they start from where they left off) is /new/ content to them as they've never done it before. Its just not the new content THEY want to go through because they want what all the people who stuck with the game got. (Ignoring personal reasons for leaving or such)

Which brings me back to, there is literally nothing wrong with gating HW off save for probably the alts issue.

Well, no, technically, they don't want what people who stuck with the game got.

They want the new content, the stuff that we ain't got yet, either, because otherwise, they would have been back before, most likely. What we're telling them is "Hi, returning player! Yes, please, money first, no free ride for you... ah, there! Welcome to Heavensward! Did you SEE those dragons and griffins and cool new zone? Bet you can't wait for all that new content you just paid for. We'll see you in Ishgard in a couple of weeks, then... what? You want the new content now? Sorry, you were gone too long, and you're back in the "noob" category. Enjoy running around again... what? Why can't you just get the new class now? Sorry. Those are not for you yet. Have an Au Ra fantasia. Aren't those scales shiny? They might help you get over your disappointment for long enough for the catch-up slog."

This is a biased perspective, yes, but at anytime you're advertising a new product with a new feature, and using it to stir interest, you cannot JUST dismiss this perspective as biased, because to do so cuts off the experiences of people who are willing to pay more money to play a game they already kinda had, but because they want the new stuff, not because the MSQ is just that darned good.

As for gating, I've said all I care to say on that.

Bolded is the problem.

Designing and producing expansion content with returning players as the target audience does not make for a sustainable business model. These are the types of players who "MMO hop". They'll play through all of a game's content and then drop their subscription to go play a different MMORPG. They'll return in time for expansion content, pay a month or two's worth of subscription time in addition to the expansion price, and then they'll hop again, dropping their sub once more.

Are profits off these players a desired boon? Yes. But I would think, from all that I've heard, that by now WoW has made it evident that you can release all the expacs you want and still bleed players by the thousands. If you want players to stay with you and stay subscribed, you have to take a different approach. That Heavensward content is gated screams to me that the expac has been designed for and intended for current subscribers. They are, first and foremost, the target audience, not returning players. New players - and returning - who intend to stick it out through ARR into HW and beyond may become new long-term subscribers, and that's where the potential growth lies. Not in the hopper/jumper/burnout crowd.

Gegenji · **06-02-2015, 12:35 PM**

(06-02-2015, 12:29 PM)Aaron Wrote: Simple.

Leveling PLD right, I get to level 40 then bam. I wanna suddenly go AST. So they put me at 30 and I skip 30 levels of tutorial.

"What are all these buttons what do I do omg help help!"

Sure you can learn by fucking around with the tips but that's just begging to be kicked from raids.

That's why I said "relevant" class. Have the requirement be leveling a specific role to 30/40, and then you can ensure that the player has at least a basic understanding of their role that they can then apply to learning the nuances of their new job, just like they would be learning the nuances of the job they would've been unlocking normally.

Leveling PLD/WAR to 30/40 would unlock DRK. Leveling WHM/SCH would let you get AST. Leveling DPS (or even just BRD!) would get you MCH.

It's not a perfect fix, of course. The best way would've had base classes for all three of the new jobs, then you could pick them up at a nice low level like ROG and then learn everything from level 1.

Because, really, what's so different between your example and someone leveling PLD to 50 to get the shorter queues, picking up MCH and then running around going "What are all these buttons what do I do omg help help!"? Obviously leveling the new jobs from 30 to cap is supposed to be a tutorial in and of itself, so why be stuck doing 150% of the tutorial?

Aaron · **06-02-2015, 12:38 PM**

(06-02-2015, 12:32 PM)Telluride Wrote:
(06-02-2015, 12:19 PM)Aaron Wrote: Sorry I missed this post lol.

I can see where you're coming from, but the thing is if you already leveled a class to 30/40 then that really was just a waste of time since you'll never use it again probably. And seeing how Yoshi said 1-50 is like a tutorial doing that would be like staying in school till high school and dropping out in the tenth grade. And the next class would be like a GED substitute.

Horrible example I know. But best I could think on the spot v.v

If I accept that, then I can say with the same aplomb that leveling a side class to 15 just to continue playing the class I CHOSE, is an even BIGGER WASTE. It is a waste that is not a bug, but a feature. If I'm playing a Warrior, and I don't level GLD to 22 to get Provoke, then I will get harrassed as a tank for what is essentially a "Strange Design Choice", to invoke the thread's title.

To use your own Metaphor, the official method of class advancement in FFXIV is the equivalent of going to one school, and being told that you're not allowed to graduate from it unless you take Summer classes at a completely different and generally totally unrelated school. Unless, of course, you can argue that spellcasters really NEED to be archers, that bards need to study boxing, and that Sultansworn Paladins all need to spend a semester in Gridania getting lectured by horn-headed tree huggers (because Desert warriors are all about the trees!).

We've basically come to terms with how SE is handling Heavensward, but a lot of it is still rather arbitrary.

So, yeah, nobody here is playing this game long if they aren't fine with wasting time on classes they probably didn't want to play. Yoshi could stand a smarter metaphor in this case.

But whether we accept it or not, wasting our time is still a really goofy design choice.

Its a simple explanation.

One skill alone won't get you through life. Ever heard of cynclical unemployment? I think that stands as a good example of the need for leveling multiple classes for cross skills.

HOWEVER that is not my point. Leveling a class to 50 and having leveled another to a certain level for a skill is not the same as skipping 1 - 50 for a 30 - 60 and fucking over the MSQ.

You have to look at it from a general standpoint. If I worked for my cake the hard way till HW. Why should this sudden new person just get it because they paid for it too? Or do any less work than I have?

Naunet · **06-02-2015, 12:40 PM**

(06-02-2015, 12:33 PM)Aaron Wrote: Going from a gaming standpoint. You should have at least decent knowledge of any class before you go playing with new toys. Its simple.

Lore-wise, I think only two of them are significantly tied to Ishgard and even then, it would not at all be unusual for NPCs to venture out into the world to lure in the interested adventurer or whatever.

As for the gaming point quoted above... I disagree fundamentally. I do not need to level other classes in order to understand how they work, and I don't need to level other classes in order to understand how the one(s) I do want to play works.

[edit] Are you deliberately misunderstanding people's arguments? No one here is suggesting players should be able to start at level 30 or whatever. Myself and others simply think it's absurd that you have to wait until you 50ed a completely different job just to be able to play the new jobs. They should just start at level 1.

Aaron · **06-02-2015, 12:40 PM**

(06-02-2015, 12:35 PM)Gegenji Wrote:
(06-02-2015, 12:29 PM)Aaron Wrote: Simple.

Leveling PLD right, I get to level 40 then bam. I wanna suddenly go AST. So they put me at 30 and I skip 30 levels of tutorial.

"What are all these buttons what do I do omg help help!"

Sure you can learn by fucking around with the tips but that's just begging to be kicked from raids.

That's why I said "relevant" class. Have the requirement be leveling a specific role to 30/40, and then you can ensure that the player has at least a basic understanding of their role that they can then apply to learning the nuances of their new job, just like they would be learning the nuances of the job they would've been unlocking normally.

Leveling PLD/WAR to 30/40 would unlock DRK. Leveling WHM/SCH would let you get AST. Leveling DPS (or even just BRD!) would get you MCH.

It's not a perfect fix, of course. The best way would've had base classes for all three of the new jobs, then you could pick them up at a nice low level like ROG and then learn everything from level 1.

Because, really, what's so different between your example and someone leveling PLD to 50 to get the shorter queues, picking up MCH and then running around going "What are all these buttons what do I do omg help help!"? Obviously leveling the new jobs from 30 to cap is supposed to be a tutorial in and of itself, so why be stuck doing 150% of the tutorial?

Ah, I missed the relevant part. Sorry.

I'm still not bought on that but you sound good enough about it I think it could probably work. I dunno.

Telluride · **06-02-2015, 12:42 PM**

(06-02-2015, 12:29 PM)Aaron Wrote: Sure you can learn by fucking around with the tips but that's just begging to be kicked from raids.

Your perspective is pretty clear from this choice, here.

The kind of people who are unhappy about some of this stuff we're talking about are people who don't really CARE about the raids and whether they wanna get kicked from them.

They want the flyers and the Au Ra and the classes that are being advertised to them. If you can find me a disclaimer in any of the theatrical, and advertising trailers, that says, "Disclaimer: Players must have completed all 2.55 story content to take advantage of new content.", please post it, because it is relevant. If such a thing exists, it's only going to help your argument. If it only exists in forums, and not in any actual promotional content, then SE is using the new content as a carrot, and slogging though Steps, Etc, is the stick, and that's an argument I am presenting.

And if the only people who are worth catering to are people who are 1337 r41d0rz, then such a game is not a place I wanna be. It hasn't been that so far, and I'd really not like to see it become that.

If we're gonna resent new people for wanting content they were led to think they were paying for, then your beef is with SE for not being more direct in their promotional materials, not with us. SE should only be allowed to advertise to people who "worked for it", and curse those filthy casuals who were led to believe that they can has griffn, plz.

Aaron · **06-02-2015, 12:42 PM**

(06-02-2015, 12:40 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(06-02-2015, 12:33 PM)Aaron Wrote: Going from a gaming standpoint. You should have at least decent knowledge of any class before you go playing with new toys. Its simple.

Lore-wise, I think only two of them are significantly tied to Ishgard and even then, it would not at all be unusual for NPCs to venture out into the world to lure in the interested adventurer or whatever.

As for the gaming point quoted above... I disagree fundamentally. I do not need to level other classes in order to understand how they work, and I don't need to level other classes in order to understand how the one(s) I do want to play works.

If they wanted a npc to just wander out Ishgard pre HW to show the WoL a great sword don't you think it'd have been done already? We wouldn't even be having this discussion then.

The second part sounds like a personal problem which I won't touch.

Aaron · **06-02-2015, 12:45 PM**

(06-02-2015, 12:42 PM)Telluride Wrote:
(06-02-2015, 12:29 PM)Aaron Wrote: Sure you can learn by fucking around with the tips but that's just begging to be kicked from raids.

Your perspective is pretty clear from this choice, here.

The kind of people who are unhappy about some of this stuff we're talking about are people who don't really CARE about the raids and whether they wanna get kicked from them.

They want the flyers and the Au Ra and the classes that are being advertised to them. Â If you can find me a disclaimer in any of the theatrical, and advertising trailers, that says, "Disclaimer: Players must have completed all 2.55 story content to take advantage of new content.", please post it, because it is relevant. Â If such a thing exists, it's only going to help your argument. If it only exists in forums, and not in any actual promotional content, then SE is using the new content as a carrot, and slogging though Steps, Etc, is the stick, and that's an argument I am presenting.

And if the only people who are worth catering to are people who are 1337 r41d0rz, then such a game is not a place I wanna be. Â It hasn't been that so far, and I'd really not like to see it become that.

Funny you judged my perspective from one line.Â

No, that was not my perspective or intent. That was a half added example I felt would get the sharpest point of the discussion. Whether you care about a raid or whatever or not is irrelevant. Odds are and I hate to sound like this honestly but other people don't care how you feel about a class. If you're keeping them from clearing they will kick you or abandon. The amount of endgamers far outweigh the causals and rpers.

Its not me being judgmental or anything. This is literally a fact. You will have to at one point do a raid before you hit HW

Naunet · **06-02-2015, 12:46 PM**

(06-02-2015, 12:42 PM)Aaron Wrote: If they wanted a npc to just wander out Ishgard pre HW to show the WoL a great sword don't you think it'd have been done already? We wouldn't even be having this discussion then.

The second part sounds like a personal problem which I won't touch.

Personal problem? o.0 What...

As for asking why a DRK/AST/MCH hasn't wandered out of Ishgard yet and using that as an excuse for why they shouldn't be around afterÂ the expansion... That's like asking why couldn't players make Death Knights in Burning Crusade.

Aaron · **06-02-2015, 12:49 PM**

(06-02-2015, 12:46 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(06-02-2015, 12:42 PM)Aaron Wrote: If they wanted a npc to just wander out Ishgard pre HW to show the WoL a great sword don't you think it'd have been done already? We wouldn't even be having this discussion then.

The second part sounds like a personal problem which I won't touch.

Personal problem? o.0 What...

As for asking why a DRK/AST/MCH hasn't wandered out of Ishgard yet and using that as an excuse for why they shouldn't be around afterÂ the expansion... That's like asking why couldn't players make Death Knights in Burning Crusade.

By personal problem I mean something I can't offer any advice or help on for fear you might take it the wrong way. I'd rather just leave you to it lol.

As for the second part. Well, there's a reason Ishgard was locked down. There's also a reason the game started off about swords and magick then developed into guns and technology.

The game runs on a timeline. The WoL enters at the beginning of it. From a timeline standpoint, the WoL at the beginning doesn't even know there's a pirate in Sastasha. Why would he along the way learn a DRK exists or even know guns are manufacturable when HW is way down the timeline?

Telluride · **06-02-2015, 12:53 PM**

(06-02-2015, 12:45 PM)Aaron Wrote: Odds are and I hate to sound like this honestly but other people don't care how you feel about a class. If you're keeping them from clearing they will kick you or abandon. The amount of endgamers far outweigh the causals and rpers.

Its not me being judgmental or anything. This is literally a fact. You will have to at one point do a raid before you hit HW

That is not yet 100% confirmed as a fact. The requirements for gear to do Steps might be met by offerings from new lvl50 quests, which are being solidly hinted at. There's another thread discussing this possibility, which is not yet answered. At this point, even before HW, you can complete the MSQ with dungeon gear or market-purchased gear, not raid gear.

Call that being nitpicky, but based on your above comment about being kicked out, it makes a massive difference. I am much less likely to be kicked from a dungeon than I am a raid in the example you cite.

Aaron, I can appreciate your perspective. You want people to Git Gud at this game. That's respectable. But I still hold that at least SOME of the stuff people are paying real cash to get in HW should be given to them when they get in. The Au Ra, and maybe at least a class to just toy with, and some other goodies, so they can feel good about giving SE money, and that is good for all of us. No dough, no new raids, and bored hardcore raiders.

Naunet · **06-02-2015, 12:53 PM**

I'd have thought MMOers were good at suspension of disbelief. I never thought too hard when leveling a monk through old world content in WoW, or when rolling up an alt in Rift and starting out with one of the newer souls, or whathaveyou. Gameplay-story segregation. In FFXIV, your character's class isn't a deciding factor when it comes to how the MSQ plays out.

I'm still not sure what you mean by personal problem (or even to what you're referring), though it certainly sounds like a veiled insult.

Aaron · **06-02-2015, 12:55 PM**

(06-02-2015, 12:53 PM)Telluride Wrote:
(06-02-2015, 12:45 PM)Aaron Wrote: Odds are and I hate to sound like this honestly but other people don't care how you feel about a class. If you're keeping them from clearing they will kick you or abandon. The amount of endgamers far outweigh the causals and rpers.

Its not me being judgmental or anything. This is literally a fact. You will have to at one point do a raid before you hit HW

That is not yet 100% confirmed as a fact. The requirements for gear to do Steps might be met by offerings from new lvl50 quests, which are being solidly hinted at. There's another thread discussing this possibility, which is not yet answered. At this point, even before HW, you can complete the MSQ with dungeon gear or market-purchased gear, not raid gear.

Call that being nitpicky, but based on your above comment about being kicked out, it makes a massive difference. I am much less likely to be kicked from a dungeon than I am a raid in the example you cite.

You can still get kicked. The percentage is irrelevant. That's the point of me saying this. I wasn't even differentiating raids from dungeons I was using raid as a general term for instance.

I'm basically saying what everyone else is. Why would you want a bad tank in your party? Because they tell you they paid to get a DRK and ignore everything else? Would you not kick them? Granted you may try to teach them the mechanics (as would I) but judging from experience there are a lot more people who will kick or abandon before reteaching a new person something.

One of the reasons PF exists.

Gegenji · **06-02-2015, 01:00 PM**

(06-02-2015, 12:40 PM)Aaron Wrote: I'm still not bought on that but you sound good enough about it I think it could probably work. I dunno.

Haha, well, it's a start, I suppose. Basically, here is the whole issue as I see it in list form.

Leveling an Original Class/Job (~6 Steps)
- Pick the class you want at creation.
- Level it to 30, learning the basic skills.
- Level subclass to 15, leveling cross-classes (though often recommended)
- Do job quest
- Receive job you want.
- Level job to cap, learning the new skills as you get them.

Leveling a Ninja (~8 Steps)
- Pick a class you don't want at creation (preferably the subclass, Pugilist)
- Level unwanted class to 10.
- Do class quest to unlock Rogue.
- Level Rogue to 30, learning basic skills.
- Level subclass to 15, leveling cross-classes optional (still recommended)
- Do job quest
- Receive job you want
- Level job to cap, learning the new skills as you get them

Leveling HW Job (~10 Steps)
- Pick a class you don't want at creation (preferably a crossclass for job)
- Level unwanted class to 30.
- Level subclass for unwanted job to 15 (hopefully also a crossclass for job)
- Do job quest for job you don't want
- Level unwanted job to cap, learning skills that you will mostly be dumping anyway beyond basic concepts.
- Complete MSQ all the way through 2.55.
- Meet iLevel requirements to continue into Ishgard
- Do new job quest
- Receive job you want
- Level job to cap, learning an entirely new style in a 30-60 window.

You're progressively having to do more and more stuff, and spending more and more time in an irrelevant class or job, to get to your destination. At least with ROG it was only ten levels. With the new jobs, it's not only 50 levels (quite the difference from 10), but you also have to go through the entirety of the MSQ (ROG only required progression to travel to Limsa if you didn't start there).

Afterward, you can't even use the MSQ for free EXP like you could with ROG/NIN. You're stuck with whatever quests you skipped (if any), dungeon crawls, leve grinding, and FATE grinding. To finally get the job that you purchased the game and its expansion to play.

It's just unfair to the player.

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Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice?

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