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Ashren Dotharl · **12-22-2014, 04:37 PM**

(12-22-2014, 02:51 PM)Naunet Wrote: There are no dainty, fragile, non-muscle-bound men in this game.

My Lalafell alt would like to have a word with you.

Edit: Regarding reasons for why Yugiri hid her appearance, and why she thought it might shock people. If you pay attention to the storyline, every Doman she arrived with is a Hyur (All Midlander as far as I saw), and she comes from a continent that is completely dominated by the Garlean Empire, which is also made up entirely of Hyur (assuming that the whole third eye race is just another subrace of Hyur like Midlander and Highlander).

Garleans have also demonstrated that they are incredibly Xenophobic with their hatred for Beast Tribes. For all we know they may share an equal hatred for races like the Miqo'te who still share physical traits with animals. With this in mind, perhaps her and her entire race have lived in fear of persecution for a long time now, and expected the same sort of attitude when she arrived in Eorzea.

Even if her appearance is not that shocking to us as the players, she never breaks the fourth wall and says "I'm hiding my face because it will shock the player" she is doing it because despite the wide range of races already living in Eorzea, none of them look like her (even if you want to continue arguing she looks like a Hyur with horns).

She's also a Ninja and her role in the story so far has been to remain hidden, observe our enemies, and not draw attention to herself. It goes without saying that a Dragon Girl, especially when she is the only Dragon Girl, would draw a shit ton of attention to themselves.

In short, I don't think it has anything to do with hiding from Ishgard, I am almost certain she had no knowledge of Ishgard before coming to Eorzea, she also makes an appearance at the Snowcloak entrance if I remember correctly and the freaking Templars don't even bat an eye at the scaled tail or horn protrusions from her hood. If she was so worried about Ishgard finding out who or what she was, she would have never set foot in Coerthas.

On top of this, there is absolutely no mention of Shiva ever having kids. That is a very VERY important detail that either the Heretics, or Ishgard would have been all over. A race of Dragons who could potentially blend in with your people and slip through your defenses would have been on their #1 to kill list, an with all the information they have already on Saint Shiva it's hard to believe they weren't aware that she apparently gave birth to enough dragonkin to sire an entire race, or that there were dragon orgies going on on the other side. It all becomes incredibly hard to believe.

No, I am much more likely to believe that the Au Ra are just another race that existed outside of Eorzea migrating to it now, after all it's pretty much the same thing that happened with literally every other race.

Berrod Armstrong · **12-22-2014, 04:44 PM**

(12-22-2014, 04:30 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: So we have someone not giving SE money for the game they're objecting to and the person admitting they're complaining out of spite who want these changes in the SE-approved design.

I bid you good luck.

Flickering Ember · **12-22-2014, 05:08 PM**

Eh, I find questioning why someone is not making their own games to be like questioning why someone is roleplaying [insert the most popular fantasy race in a MMO here]. A person roleplays a miqo'te, or a human, or a blood elf because they want to and shouldn't have to be drilled for doing so. At the same time, those of us who chose different career paths shouldn't need to be told that if we want to see change then we have to make a career change.

It's an issue that needs to be met halfway on. Better representation of minorities is a hot topic in gaming right now. On one hand, developers should try to be inclusive. (Despite my complaints against Au Ra, SE has so far been inclusive with the inclusion of female highlanders and roegadyn + gay marriage) On the other hand, it is also true that we need to be the change we want to see and part of that is getting more minorities into career fields where they might be low.

If you're my age, late 20's, then it's probably too late to say "hey, go be a game developer if you want to see change". A lot of us at this age have already gone to school and chosen our career paths. In a country where college can put you into a debt comparable to a house mortgage, it's not very practical. I see it as kind of a lost cause for the 20-something gamer. But for the young kid/high schooler, encouraging them to become game developers is a lot more practical.

In the end, we need a more diverse pool of game developers, but for those of us who missed the chance or like our current career fields, we got to support what we want to see in gaming in different ways.

Aya · **12-22-2014, 05:12 PM**

(12-22-2014, 04:21 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: No one is silencing anyone. As sickening as it seems, it is the cold hard truth. If change is too happen, the best thing to do is get up and make it. I'll thank you not to insinuate that I'm trying to silence anyone.

Okay.. I don't follow this argument at all.Â You're not allowed to criticise anything unless you're prepared to make it yourself?

Don't complain about hardware unless you're ready to go into the semi-conductor business?

Don't complain about a car unless you're ready to go into the automobile business?

Don't complain about cruddy airlines unless you're ready to start your own?

Don't complain about the weather unless you're prepared to create your own universe?

Berrod Armstrong · **12-22-2014, 05:20 PM**

(12-22-2014, 05:12 PM)Aya Wrote:
(12-22-2014, 04:21 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: No one is silencing anyone. As sickening as it seems, it is the cold hard truth. If change is too happen, the best thing to do is get up and make it. I'll thank you not to insinuate that I'm trying to silence anyone.
Okay.. I don't follow this argument at all.Â You're not allowed to criticise anything unless you're prepared to make it yourself?

Don't complain about hardware unless you're ready to go into the semi-conductor business?

Don't complain about a car unless you're ready to go into the automobile business?

Don't complain about cruddy airlines unless you're ready to start your own?

Don't complain about the weather unless you're prepared to create your own universe?

In the very post you quoted I said that I was not silencing anyone. I had said, in my post before that, that if change is wanted, the best thing one can do is get up, get in there and change it.Â

I will not have my words twisted on account of knee-jerk indignation. I know people expect snide responses and mean replies to those sorts of things, but I just said something that is true.Â

We can complain. Hell, I bitch up a storm about enough myself. However. Change will not come without meaningful initiative. It's not easy, and sometimes people have to leave it to those who come after to pick up where they left off. I'm speaking from experience on that one, too.

Otherwise, things are just going to stay the same for us to complain about some more.

Aya · **12-22-2014, 05:26 PM**

Alright then.. but that's basically tautology.Â You can only change something by changing it, that's true.Â But that doesn't mean that people cannot have, express, and discuss their varied opinions on something without someone implying, "if you don't like it, you should do something about it."Â

Everyone has different opinions, and perhaps just as importantly, different weights of importance that they give to their opinions.Â I do not understand why discussion threads such as these devolve into the validity of opinions, that is not something that should even come up, let alone crop up in virtually every discussion thread that appears on this forum any more.

Berrod Armstrong · **12-22-2014, 05:52 PM**

(12-22-2014, 03:00 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote:
(12-22-2014, 02:51 PM)Naunet Wrote: Y'know, now that I think about it, I think I would have preferred if the guysÂ had been designed in a way that conformed to the girls. There are no dainty, fragile, non-muscle-bound men in this game. This would have been an excellent opportunity.

But nope.

(12-22-2014, 02:50 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: If you're unsure then you probably didn't read the post properly. He broke it down element by element and basically demonstrated that it's no more of a big deal than any of the other races.

No, I read his post quite thoroughly. And I disagree on pretty much every assertion. They doÂ notÂ look the same. I'll also point out that one of the chief complaints is that "big male/tiny female" is an overplayed design trope, so attempting to point out other races that may conform to it doesn't exactly do the defense much good.
Except that he didn't say they look the same, he said that there isn't much of a difference -- and compared what differences there were to the differences seen in the males and females of the other races. As for the big male/tiny female overplayed trope: it's standard, it's part of their art style and it isn't going to change unless someone who wants to change it gets in there and changes it!

(12-22-2014, 05:26 PM)Aya Wrote: Alright then.. but that's basically tautology.Â You can only change something by changing it, that's true.Â But that doesn't mean that people cannot have, express, and discuss their varied opinions on something without someone implying, "if you don't like it, you should do something about it."Â

Everyone has different opinions, and perhaps just as importantly, different weights of importance that they give to their opinions.Â I do not understand why discussion threads such as these devolve into the validity of opinions, that is not something that should even come up, let alone crop up in virtually every discussion thread that appears on this forum any more.

I quoted my own post here so that I -- as well as anyone else -- could see exactly what I said. Nowhere did I imply 'if don't like it, you should do something about it'. No. It's not my place to tell people those things, and I would not.

I said, it isn't going to change until someone who wants to change it gets in there and changes it.

Because I can't tell you what to do.

I did not invalidate anyone's opinions, silence anyone, tell anyone to go make their own game. I stated something that is true. An irritating and uncomfortable truth for some, which is why I can understand the heated -- and awfully presumptuous -- responses.Â

"Huh, that wall's color isn't going to change until someone paints it!"

"ARGH, I AM TIRED OF PEOPLE TELLING ME THAT I SHOULD GO AND PAINT THE WALL."

Again, people are used to catty, awful meanness on the internet and tend to have their guards and hackles up AND the claws out, ready to retaliate -- so the responses didn't surprise me. But yeah, it's true. THEY are perfectly capable of changing it, but it's not what they want, so they won't. Not to mention the majority of players don't seem to really object to the style. We're a minority after all, us roleplayers. For myself, I have no problem with it because I'm waiting to see why the race is as they are before saying anything -- and if there's no lore reason, I know full well that it's the style of the franchise and hey, I'm okay with it! They're beautiful models, and as characters I'm sure they're capable of being strong, willful and goddamned great.

I'm not trying to invalidate anyone's opinion. I'm stating the reality of things, and placing a bit of my own opinion in there as commentary.

Harmonixer · **12-22-2014, 06:01 PM**

If the thing I'm hearing about their origins are true, it won't be the first time something like this has happened:

[Image: Priscilla.png]

I can't be the only one that thought of that. The story behind this one for those who don't know, is something along the lines of this: Pictured is the daughter of a goddess that feel in love with an insane outcast dragon. She was born with an awful power, so they locked her away in a fairytale style painting in efforts to protect her (or others from her). I know it's not exactly the same, but it strongly reminded me of it.

I admit, while I haven't been active on this game I've kept an ear to the ground for the expansion. It's always been somewhere on list of things to get back to, and I can safely say this will bring me back in a heartbeat. I'm an absolute sucker for claws and horns, having a vaguely beastial race appeals to me on many levels, since I was never completely happy with the male races of this game. I mean look at the guys, towering monsters. Not quite as elegant as the elezen, not as broad as the roegadyn and not quite as rugged as the highlanders. Yet, tailed, and have an extra 'feature'. It's perfect for my tastes.

Don't get me wrong. I'm still really fond of of the existing ones, I wouldn't change a thing! Most preferred highlanders. So I like and appreciate them.

But these guys? Definitely. I have no shame in admitting it. Call me Sonic the Edgehog or Grimdark Deathkill- I think their design is just right. Having played a lot of other beast-like-type races in other games, I was always really unhappy with armor mutations. Since they have to be on everyone, they never did quite get it right. Stretched out textures and absurd clipping issues. I'd still play them, but coming of charr and draken- I'm very happy to see this.

That is until, they make a fully mechanical race. Automatons, biomechanical, whatever. Then again, RPing them is always a mixed bag. A big guy with horns though? I'm much more comfortable with, even if it is somewhat predictable.

EDIT:

I was going to refrain from commenting on the difference between the sexes, but having seen so much of it on this forum and a few other places I can't help but weigh in.

Personally, I like the differences. It could do with the fact that I greatly appreciate height variance between couples. I think it stems mostly from them being a good middle-ground for me. My friends have good feedback on them. I've noticed that a lot of my female friends won't play races that are drastically different from the others because they feel too out of place. The rest of them do whatever they can to stand out. All of that is perfectly fine to me.

I stand my ground on it, I think both sexes look great and glad they chose that direction. I've seen what people do when they have customization choices in games and they almost always pick the 'safer' routes, the more familiar and the least different. Look at every male that you know that made a short, red haired female with the largest weapon option. I'll always think back to 5 Signet black and red colorschemed Warriors from Guild Wars 2. A wealth of options, even among creative RPer leads to the same trends. And it perfectly fine, I suspect that if the females were much different, even less people would play them. They have horns, and scales that match the males, just more subtle. I like it. This is not to say they won't add more options later.

Also, my first post. Hi.

Aya · **12-22-2014, 06:02 PM**

(12-22-2014, 05:52 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: I did not invalidate anyone's opinions, silence anyone, tell anyone to go make their own game. I stated something that is true. An irritating and uncomfortable truth for some, which is why I can understand the heated -- and awfully presumptuous -- responses.

Alright, Berrod, that's fine.Â However, I've seen multiple cases lately (including in this thread, and in your responses in C'kayah's thread last week) that boil down to, "You cannot have that opinion."Â I have been terribly disappointed to see that, and it really does not seem like an isolated phenomenon, but instead what is becoming an expected reply to an opinion that is disliked.Â "I disagree with X, but I don't want to explain why I disagree with X, instead I will explain why X is not an opinion that someone should have."Â That is not discussion, it is not constructive, and it is not an approach that should be taken within a respectful and friendly community (it is also offensive to the idea of free and open discussion).

My point of view is that people ought to be able to freely express their opinion, and discuss why they hold it without the threat of being held underwater for doing so.Â There are a lot of people disappointed about the Au Ra ranging from eye-rolling to distraught (okay maybe not that much!), and there are people who are really excited for them.Â I found it interesting to see the two opinions expressed, and why, and it has even lead to some interesting discussion pondering the origin of the race, and how they will be represented in the game.Â This is all well, and good, in fact it is the very wonderful purpose toward which a discussion forum is designed.

On the idea that you've expressed here, that's all well-and-good, I suppose, but it doesn't seem to really mean anything.Â I may as well tell you that if you want a non-bulky male option to play that you should make your own MMO.Â Is that any more responsive to what you've said on the previous page, than what you said in your reply?Â Has it added anything to the discussion?

Ashren Dotharl · **12-22-2014, 06:02 PM**

(12-22-2014, 05:52 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: I'm waiting to see why the race is as they are before saying anything

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if there was only as much explanation for their appearance as there was for any other race. After all there is no explanation for why Miqo'te resemble cats, so why would they need to explain why Au Ra look like dragons, other than the fact that SE felt it was fitting to add a new dragon-type race to the very Dragon themed expansion?

I think hoping/expecting some sort of elaborate and detailed lore explanation comes from our own small niche of players and out our desire to understand the hows and whys of the world we play and RP in. It goes back to the whole Dragoon debate that was going on about a week ago and people discussing how Dragoons can jump so high, it's not explained... it just is, because that's the theme of the class.

So I won't be at all surprised if Heavensward comes out and we get a few paragraphs describing the race as more or less "a race of scaled people that come from Othard" and that is all.

industrythirteen · **12-22-2014, 06:07 PM**

When I'm designing something, I go for really wildly different looks between iterations, while still keeping to a common theme. Color is generally the last thing I take into account. Silhouette and shape, shape design, shape break up is far more important to visual impact.Â

So, what does this mindset have to do with the Au Ra? I'm down with the sexual dimorphism. I'm okay with it varying wildly. I'd even like to see MORE variation between the clan/tribal split in all the races. But, nothing I can do about that, I have no control over design direction.

That said, I personally don't think the Au Ra are different enough from the other races. I'd love to see even more horns, or scales or features that set them apart. yeah, they've got a tail. That's cool. I like the tail. Claws, talons, a bone structure in the face, or the legs or the feet that get away from typical homo sapien structures would excite me a little more. Maybe a different posture would be fun. Man, I hope they let us pick our horns.

Ashren Dotharl · **12-22-2014, 06:14 PM**

(12-22-2014, 06:07 PM)industrythirteen Wrote: Man, I hope they let us pick our horns.

They've shown a few models with two different horn types and two different colors so far, so I'm really REALLY hoping they have the option to pick between a few different types similar to say the Elezen ear type picker, and then color them independently of our hair/skin color. Would also really appreciate a tail length slider similar to the Miqo'te.

Aya · **12-22-2014, 06:15 PM**

(12-22-2014, 06:07 PM)industrythirteen Wrote: That said, I personally don't think the Au Ra are different enough from the other races. I'd love to see even more horns, or scales or features that set them apart. yeah, they've got a tail. That's cool. I like the tail. Claws, talons, a bone structure in the face, or the legs or the feet that get away from typical homo sapien structures would excite me a little more. Maybe a different posture would be fun. Man, I hope they let us pick our horns.

I would like to see some extensive facial ridges that gave the more of a draconic visage Smile

Naunet · **12-22-2014, 06:20 PM**

(12-22-2014, 06:15 PM)Aya Wrote: I would like to see some extensive facial ridges that gave the more of a draconic visage

This would help!

Iex · **12-22-2014, 06:22 PM**

(12-22-2014, 06:07 PM)industrythirteen Wrote: When I'm designing something, I go for really wildly different looks between iterations, while still keeping to a common theme. Color is generally the last thing I take into account. Silhouette and shape, shape design, shape break up is far more important to visual impact.Â

So, what does this mindset have to do with the Au Ra? I'm down with the sexual dimorphism. I'm okay with it varying wildly. I'd even like to see MORE variation between the clan/tribal split in all the races. But, nothing I can do about that, I have no control over design direction.

That said, I personally don't think the Au Ra are different enough from the other races. I'd love to see even more horns, or scales or features that set them apart. yeah, they've got a tail. That's cool. I like the tail. Claws, talons, a bone structure in the face, or the legs or the feet that get away from typical homo sapien structures would excite me a little more. Maybe a different posture would be fun. Man, I hope they let us pick our horns.

They cannot stray too far away from the general humanoid look of other player races and keep with a consistency that the Au Ra are not a beastman race as well as the general humanoid look of PC races. Not to mention the massive armor alterations they would have to make for a less humanoid race.Â (Personally I would have loved if Miqo'te were less Mancat and more Catman.) (Do not quote me on that as it has not be stated in canon lore) However, in a world where dragons/beastmen are the banes of entire nations even being similar to them at all can be peril. (My theory about the Lore reason for Yugiri being masked) Also see Gridania quests were Miqo'te are called wild beasts rather than civilized individuals.

By the looks of what I can see from the screen shots, you will be able to pick horns (maybe) but for sure color of the scales.

http://imgur.com/a/MUEoR#2Â Shows blue scales and horns while the other ones show black and tan. They only show two types of horns for both male and female, so either the horn type may declare clan or they just haven'tÂ shown us all yet.

Here is some salt to take with this post as I cannot be held responsible as an accurate source for anything other than Au Ra exist and will be in the expac.

Also, cough sorry for rehashing some of the posts above me.

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Thoughts on the Au Ra?

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