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Yssen · **08-31-2016, 12:38 PM**

(08-31-2016, 11:50 AM)Gegenji Wrote: I suppose you could argue that such a comparison is skewed because - as mentioned - it's involving a much more dire issue (AIDs vs. personal housing) that affects real currency (Cash-dollars vs. gil) that could be used for more, real life tangible things needed (Food, rent, utilities). Meanwhile, housing in-game was designed as a gil sink, and that gil likely isn't going to be going much elsewhere other than other non-critical items (i.e., the true endgame of glamour fashion).

So, while there may be a similarity, the differences are equally outstanding. And comparing virtual housing to AIDs medication does nothing more than add unneeded shock value to the situation. And polarizes conversation.

The conversation has been polarized since the issue first came up, nothing new there. The fact that the situation spiraled to a point where an official statement had to be made in a live letter directly by the game's lead developer is... kinda sad. I mean, people are STILL trying to justify the action after being told "no. this is not okay, we don't want this and will take action against it." That is even sadder.Â

What you do when you have no fear of consequence, when you are dealing with a small, less dire matter, is where making a right or wrong decision truly counts.Â Yes, the matter is less dire than something critically needed, but if you are the same logic a douchebag used to commit a terrible, and much more dire act to commit justify committing a smaller, less important act, you are still a douchebag. You are just being one for next to no real good reason other than "because I can, and I believe I can get away with it." Picking apart the semantics of an argument does not change the argument. The action is wrong, the action is against the ToS, and no real justification for it exists beyond "I want to be a douchebag and make exploitative profit at the expense of others, regardless of ethical, moral, or ToS related factors." There is no grey area here anymore, and that is sorta the point.

Pascaleret · **08-31-2016, 06:02 PM**

(08-31-2016, 11:37 AM)Yssen Wrote:
(08-30-2016, 11:34 PM)Threed Crowley Wrote:
(08-30-2016, 08:55 AM)Yssen Wrote: It is incorrect to say that no one at SE is batting an eye when they called for people to report house flipping and selling plots for profit in a live letter. Clear as day in a live letter. SE is not to blame for you not doing as they asked when someone violates the terms of service. Further, the fact that a similar behavior is allowed on the market board, does not mean that house flipping is in anyway justified when they have said "We don't like this, don't do it." It is specious reasoning to say that they don't care at all when they have bothered to clarify the point in a live letter, and given a method of action that you as a player can take to help them solve it. One can come up with as many reasons as they like as for why a behavior against the ToS might be justified in their eyes, at no point does this truly justify anything. It also doesn't change the fact that a behavior is against the ToS.Â

One's personal experiences with a GM do not encompass the entire experience of everyone who has reported anyone for any reason. I'm sorry you have had a negative experience with a harassment claim, but that does not justify people breaking the ToS at any point. Houses are moving still, sure. People still buy gil with real money and bully people with parsers, too. People speed all the time on the road irl, but saying "everyone else was doing it" is not a defense that holds up in court, ever. Someone getting away with something is not an indication that SE doesn't care. It is just an indication they haven't been caught yet. If they are not being caught because you refuse to report the people doing it for reason x, then you have given them tacit approval. In doing so, it can be argued that you become part of the problem.Â

Snatching up a house to inflate the price to make a large level of profit when relinquishing the plot is about the same sort of act as when that douche bag bought the rights to an AIDS treatment medication and jacked the price up. Yes, you can argue that it is simple supply and demand, and that it is all SE's fault for a flawed housing system. This does not make the action right. Particularly when the people who created and own the game say it is wrong. Flawed systems do not absolve an individual from making bad moral or ethical decisions.

Dude, are you kidding me? How is flipping a pretend video game house for pretend internet money even remotely close to someone jacking up the price of AIDS medication???

In that it is that one is using the exact same thinking to justify and proceed with the action. One takes advantage of a flawed system to the detriment of others in a community. While knowing (i hope) that what they are doing is wrong, but proceeding anyway because profit. This would be why there was the qualifier of "about the same."

But if you have an argument for how snatching up a house soley for the purpose of exploiting other player's want of housing for a massively inflated profit isn't using the same sort of douchebag logic as the above example, i'm open to hearing your argument. Yar.

That medicine is needed for someone's survival. You're not going to catch an infection and die because you didn't get a plot of land in Final Fantasy. Flipping pretend video game houses is not a matter of life and death. They only make that gil because people are willing to pay it, people who don't necessarily need a house, but want one anyway. The buyers could all band together and say nah, I'm not paying that. People who need their meds or their epipens or whatever else somebody is jacking up the price of these days don't always have that option. It's nowhere even close to "about the same".

Gabineaux · **08-31-2016, 06:18 PM**

How about a TLDR: Yes, a small plot is.. around 3mil. Yes someone sold a small plot for 6mil and got banned. But consider that the small plot had an fc and 4 airships that total cost far above 6mil. Yes that is against the rules I NEVER SAID IT WASN'T. I just have no idea how people who are selling plots for such high amounts of gil are going by unbanned, while gil sellers moving say.. 40mil are getting more or less auto-banned. People buying 40mil from bots or whatever will get banned and they are not being reported by anyone that I know of. The list comes out with numbers of RMT getting banned every other month. But people selling a house for 175mil, 200mil, are not getting banned. Do you see why I'm scratching my head at the GMs? No? Yes? I don't know if I need to go over that again or not but I'm.. going to anyways and with a few points why I think this is.

(Yes I know people who have bought gil, 40mil gil, to be exactly precise, and gotten a warning/gil taken away or gotten a ban. I also know one person who has bought more and talked their way out of the ban.)

(08-31-2016, 12:20 PM)Valence Wrote:
(08-30-2016, 11:16 PM)Arvid Greave Wrote: snip

Maybe the 6M dude got enough evidence gathered against him and not the 200mil dude? Maybe depending on the GM in charge and their mood, the answer can vary a lot? Maybe the high rolling house sellers are you know, actually good at hiding their thing when the smaller ones probably don't even know what they are doing?

Lots of things can happen, and the problem is, you are talking mostly without knowing half of the actual details and pulling vague examples that only you can talk about here.

(08-30-2016, 11:16 PM)Arvid Greave Wrote: I actually do personally know three people who flipped houses frequently to make 300mil+

That's exactly what I was telling above. You know three people. Out of... lots. Maybe you haven't heard about high rollers being banned. Maybe some still get banned. Who's to say that you can't miss anything?

See, the thing is, after a few years in the industry, I see so many people claming various things on game forums like, they think that feature X or Y is shit, or that facts are A and not B, and that everyone thinks to agree, so why is the company not doing anything against it, etc etc?

They think they know about everything, have all the data, when in fact they just kept paying attention only to their own echo bubble and circle of friends or personal network to the point where they naturally think that this is representative of the whole situation.

And then you take a look at the actual stats that the playerbase has no access to, with actual numbers to back it up, and see that those people are actually a minority, or talk about very vocal but very minor parts of the community.

That's.. yes, another issue. GMs do nothing, usually, unless a WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE SEND IN TICKETS OVER ONE ISSUE. But what went on there, then? I guess the 6mil dude went on party finder and everyone on party finder pointed and shrieked? Entirely possible. But anything said in a linkshell? You can report it but it depends on the GM whether or not anything will be done about it. If the 6mil guy had dramalama and it happened in a linkshell? EVEN IF IT IS AGAINST THE TOS, the GM might tell them too bad leave the linkshell if they don't like what they are reading.

And ...wouldn't more of these people talk about getting banned, if they got banned? Wouldn't more warnings to their fellow house flippers go out like 'OH I GOT BANNED OH CRAP!' ?? I don't think there's a whole 'lot' more than people really think there is. There's a lot as in, one person may flip two houses and then stop doing that forever as they see no need to do it again because they've reached their goals.

Of course they are going to be careful. They are incredibly careful, so careful in fact that if the buyer says anything in game about the deal, the deal is over and they will say in game "What are you talking about?" And log out. But that's not the point. The point is, the GMs should see that level of gil moving. They should pinpoint it like they do when people buy gil. They should do something about it but as far as I have seen nothing is done. But something is done about a piddly 20-40mil gil buying transaction? Laughable. Yes yes yes I am making a generalisation with only the data I have. I only know these three personally. If the problem is TRULY WORSE than that..? WHY is it up to US? For god's sake when it's a 175-200mil transaction and nothing is done? I've seen on reddit medium houses going up for 75mil, 80mil, I don't know those people but I keep a tab on the ward and house and see that the owners have changed. I don't think I can report anyone just based on that and why should I if these houses are going into RPer's hands?

What the hell is going on here REALLY? Are they ONLY tracking the known RMT IP addresses? Is it only a problem when people say it's a problem? Are they taking my personal stance on it and thinking, well, if the buyer is spending it and they're happy and nobody says they have a problem who cares? Why aren't they following their own rules? Why should we, as the players, have to do their jobs and build evidence against people? It's only a problem because with RMT they lose money..?

Yssen · **08-31-2016, 06:41 PM**

(08-31-2016, 06:02 PM)Threed Crowley Wrote:
(08-31-2016, 11:37 AM)Yssen Wrote:
(08-30-2016, 11:34 PM)Threed Crowley Wrote:
(08-30-2016, 08:55 AM)Yssen Wrote: It is incorrect to say that no one at SE is batting an eye when they called for people to report house flipping and selling plots for profit in a live letter. Clear as day in a live letter. SE is not to blame for you not doing as they asked when someone violates the terms of service. Further, the fact that a similar behavior is allowed on the market board, does not mean that house flipping is in anyway justified when they have said "We don't like this, don't do it." It is specious reasoning to say that they don't care at all when they have bothered to clarify the point in a live letter, and given a method of action that you as a player can take to help them solve it. One can come up with as many reasons as they like as for why a behavior against the ToS might be justified in their eyes, at no point does this truly justify anything. It also doesn't change the fact that a behavior is against the ToS.Â

One's personal experiences with a GM do not encompass the entire experience of everyone who has reported anyone for any reason. I'm sorry you have had a negative experience with a harassment claim, but that does not justify people breaking the ToS at any point. Houses are moving still, sure. People still buy gil with real money and bully people with parsers, too. People speed all the time on the road irl, but saying "everyone else was doing it" is not a defense that holds up in court, ever. Someone getting away with something is not an indication that SE doesn't care. It is just an indication they haven't been caught yet. If they are not being caught because you refuse to report the people doing it for reason x, then you have given them tacit approval. In doing so, it can be argued that you become part of the problem.Â

Snatching up a house to inflate the price to make a large level of profit when relinquishing the plot is about the same sort of act as when that douche bag bought the rights to an AIDS treatment medication and jacked the price up. Yes, you can argue that it is simple supply and demand, and that it is all SE's fault for a flawed housing system. This does not make the action right. Particularly when the people who created and own the game say it is wrong. Flawed systems do not absolve an individual from making bad moral or ethical decisions.

Dude, are you kidding me? How is flipping a pretend video game house for pretend internet money even remotely close to someone jacking up the price of AIDS medication???

In that it is that one is using the exact same thinking to justify and proceed with the action. One takes advantage of a flawed system to the detriment of others in a community. While knowing (i hope) that what they are doing is wrong, but proceeding anyway because profit. This would be why there was the qualifier of "about the same."

But if you have an argument for how snatching up a house soley for the purpose of exploiting other player's want of housing for a massively inflated profit isn't using the same sort of douchebag logic as the above example, i'm open to hearing your argument. Yar.

That medicine is needed for someone's survival. You're not going to catch an infection and die because you didn't get a plot of land in Final Fantasy. Flipping pretend video game houses is not a matter of life and death. They only make that gil because people are willing to pay it, people who don't necessarily need a house, but want one anyway. The buyers could all band together and say nah, I'm not paying that. People who need their meds or their epipens or whatever else somebody is jacking up the price of these days don't always have that option. It's nowhere even close to "about the same".

I never said it was the same in terms of severity or life and death, I said it was using the same douchebag logic as the prior example. That is how it is "about the same." It is about the same because it is an equally predatory act made without regard for others by exploiting a flawed system. It is about the same because when people buy up the limited housing space with the intent of placing an excessive premium on releasing that space to a player, they are giving them no where else to go for housing other than to pay their fee. It uses the same douchebag tactics, that is how it is "about the same."Â

The scale of the the acts severity is not what I am comparing here, it is the fact that going through with either act is equally ethically and morally bankrupt.

Kellach Woods · **08-31-2016, 06:42 PM**

so you're privy to all that shit and you never reported?

HMMMMMMMMMMMM

Gabineaux · **08-31-2016, 06:45 PM**

(08-31-2016, 06:42 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: so you're privy to all that shit and you never reported?

HMMMMMMMMMMMM

Why would I report an RPer/FC who has bought themselves a house they enjoy? So they no longer have a house and no longer have any gil?

..And actually what have I got to report besides a house moving from one FC leader to another. Can you report an FC changing leadership.

Yssen · **08-31-2016, 06:50 PM**

(08-31-2016, 06:45 PM)Arvid Greave Wrote:
(08-31-2016, 06:42 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: so you're privy to all that shit and you never reported?

HMMMMMMMMMMMM

Why would I report an RPer/FC who has bought themselves a house they enjoy? So they no longer have a house and no longer have any gil?

Because if they intend to sell the house for profit, or are sitting on it just to sell it for profit, they are breaking the ToS. If they are genuinely using the house, there is no harm or foul. The FC or individual who paid excessive fee to get someone out of a plots is not in violation, the party that charged the fee in the first place is.

EDIT - Also, in regard to your question of whether they are only tracking RMT activity. RMT activity is the only thing currently that has a special team dedicated to tracking and eliminating it. This was a team they started when RMT/Gil selling got out of hand in FFXI and carried over to XIV. If similar activity gets out of hand, they will dedicated teams to that too. The answer, however, is not to let stuff get so out of hand that that happens. The answer is to act as individuals and a community and do exactly what SE asked. Report it when we see it. Yar.

Kellach Woods · **08-31-2016, 06:55 PM**

(08-31-2016, 06:45 PM)Arvid Greave Wrote: Why would I report an RPer/FC who has bought themselves a house they enjoy? So they no longer have a house and no longer have any gil?

and then you wonder why they get away with it.

Gabineaux · **08-31-2016, 06:57 PM**

(08-31-2016, 06:42 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: so you're privy to all that shit and you never reported?

HMMMMMMMMMMMM

I also RP/raid/occasionally pretend I have a life so I don't go full on CSI housing reddit/FFXIV unless there's a house I want to buy.. I want a large house but there's no fucking way I can pay what they're charging for one. I have to wait 6 months and pray I don't get two lobby errors again.

(08-31-2016, 06:55 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote:
(08-31-2016, 06:45 PM)Arvid Greave Wrote: Why would I report an RPer/FC who has bought themselves a house they enjoy? So they no longer have a house and no longer have any gil?
and then you wonder why they get away with it.

I wonder why GMs let them get away with it. Honestly, what do I have to report? I have reported things and had GMs tell me 'not enough information'. Did I not mention that?

Pascaleret · **08-31-2016, 07:03 PM**

(08-31-2016, 06:41 PM)Yssen Wrote:
(08-31-2016, 06:02 PM)Threed Crowley Wrote:
(08-31-2016, 11:37 AM)Yssen Wrote:
(08-30-2016, 11:34 PM)Threed Crowley Wrote:
(08-30-2016, 08:55 AM)Yssen Wrote: It is incorrect to say that no one at SE is batting an eye when they called for people to report house flipping and selling plots for profit in a live letter. Clear as day in a live letter. SE is not to blame for you not doing as they asked when someone violates the terms of service. Further, the fact that a similar behavior is allowed on the market board, does not mean that house flipping is in anyway justified when they have said "We don't like this, don't do it." It is specious reasoning to say that they don't care at all when they have bothered to clarify the point in a live letter, and given a method of action that you as a player can take to help them solve it. One can come up with as many reasons as they like as for why a behavior against the ToS might be justified in their eyes, at no point does this truly justify anything. It also doesn't change the fact that a behavior is against the ToS.Â

One's personal experiences with a GM do not encompass the entire experience of everyone who has reported anyone for any reason. I'm sorry you have had a negative experience with a harassment claim, but that does not justify people breaking the ToS at any point. Houses are moving still, sure. People still buy gil with real money and bully people with parsers, too. People speed all the time on the road irl, but saying "everyone else was doing it" is not a defense that holds up in court, ever. Someone getting away with something is not an indication that SE doesn't care. It is just an indication they haven't been caught yet. If they are not being caught because you refuse to report the people doing it for reason x, then you have given them tacit approval. In doing so, it can be argued that you become part of the problem.Â

Snatching up a house to inflate the price to make a large level of profit when relinquishing the plot is about the same sort of act as when that douche bag bought the rights to an AIDS treatment medication and jacked the price up. Yes, you can argue that it is simple supply and demand, and that it is all SE's fault for a flawed housing system. This does not make the action right. Particularly when the people who created and own the game say it is wrong. Flawed systems do not absolve an individual from making bad moral or ethical decisions.

Dude, are you kidding me? How is flipping a pretend video game house for pretend internet money even remotely close to someone jacking up the price of AIDS medication???

In that it is that one is using the exact same thinking to justify and proceed with the action. One takes advantage of a flawed system to the detriment of others in a community. While knowing (i hope) that what they are doing is wrong, but proceeding anyway because profit. This would be why there was the qualifier of "about the same."

But if you have an argument for how snatching up a house soley for the purpose of exploiting other player's want of housing for a massively inflated profit isn't using the same sort of douchebag logic as the above example, i'm open to hearing your argument. Yar.

That medicine is needed for someone's survival. You're not going to catch an infection and die because you didn't get a plot of land in Final Fantasy. Flipping pretend video game houses is not a matter of life and death. They only make that gil because people are willing to pay it, people who don't necessarily need a house, but want one anyway. The buyers could all band together and say nah, I'm not paying that. People who need their meds or their epipens or whatever else somebody is jacking up the price of these days don't always have that option. It's nowhere even close to "about the same".

I never said it was the same in terms of severity or life and death, I said it was using the same douchebag logic as the prior example. That is how it is "about the same." It is about the same because it is an equally predatory act made without regard for others by exploiting a flawed system. It is about the same because when people buy up the limited housing space with the intent of placing an excessive premium on releasing that space to a player, they are giving them no where else to go for housing other than to pay their fee. It uses the same douchebag tactics, that is how it is "about the same."Â

The scale of the the acts severity is not what I am comparing here, it is the fact that going through with either act is equally ethically and morally bankrupt.

It's not an "equally" predatory act. Buyers can choose not to buy from a house flipper. They can choose to wait for SE to add more plots, or for the relinquish timer to tick down. People who need medicine don't have the choice of not buying or waiting for a patent to expire so they can buy a generic. Equating video game house flippers to a CEO jacking up the price of life saving medicine is a tasteless and unnecessary comparison. Some dude going into Wal-mart and buying up all the new Playstation 5s to resell on e-Bay at a huge price increase? Sure. But there was absolutely no reason to equate something as stupid as house flipping to something that is actually an incredibly evil thing to do.

Yssen · **08-31-2016, 07:16 PM**

(08-31-2016, 07:03 PM)Threed Crowley Wrote:
(08-31-2016, 06:41 PM)Yssen Wrote:
(08-31-2016, 06:02 PM)Threed Crowley Wrote:
(08-31-2016, 11:37 AM)Yssen Wrote:
(08-30-2016, 11:34 PM)Threed Crowley Wrote: Dude, are you kidding me? How is flipping a pretend video game house for pretend internet money even remotely close to someone jacking up the price of AIDS medication???

In that it is that one is using the exact same thinking to justify and proceed with the action. One takes advantage of a flawed system to the detriment of others in a community. While knowing (i hope) that what they are doing is wrong, but proceeding anyway because profit. This would be why there was the qualifier of "about the same."

But if you have an argument for how snatching up a house soley for the purpose of exploiting other player's want of housing for a massively inflated profit isn't using the same sort of douchebag logic as the above example, i'm open to hearing your argument. Yar.

That medicine is needed for someone's survival. You're not going to catch an infection and die because you didn't get a plot of land in Final Fantasy. Flipping pretend video game houses is not a matter of life and death. They only make that gil because people are willing to pay it, people who don't necessarily need a house, but want one anyway. The buyers could all band together and say nah, I'm not paying that. People who need their meds or their epipens or whatever else somebody is jacking up the price of these days don't always have that option. It's nowhere even close to "about the same".

I never said it was the same in terms of severity or life and death, I said it was using the same douchebag logic as the prior example. That is how it is "about the same." It is about the same because it is an equally predatory act made without regard for others by exploiting a flawed system. It is about the same because when people buy up the limited housing space with the intent of placing an excessive premium on releasing that space to a player, they are giving them no where else to go for housing other than to pay their fee. It uses the same douchebag tactics, that is how it is "about the same."Â

The scale of the the acts severity is not what I am comparing here, it is the fact that going through with either act is equally ethically and morally bankrupt.

It's not an "equally" predatory act. Buyers can choose not to buy from a house flipper. They can choose to wait for SE to add more plots, or for the relinquish timer to tick down. People who need medicine don't have the choice of not buying or waiting for a patent to expire so they can buy a generic. Equating video game house flippers to a CEO jacking up the price of life saving medicine is a tasteless and unnecessary comparison. Some dude going into Wal-mart and buying up all the new Playstation 5s to resell on e-Bay at a huge price increase? Sure. But there was absolutely no reason to equate something as stupid as house flipping to something that is actually an incredibly evil thing to do.

As I have explained in an earlier post farther up, the devil is in the moral and ethical details. In this, these acts are the same. The scale of severity is the only thing that is different. The tactics are the same, scoop everything up so you can charge what you wish and make an ridiculous profit because you have cornered the market and are allowed to exploit others because of it. Life saving medicine, playstation 5s, pretend-y fun time housing. The severity of impact on the individuals being exploited, and the product that is being snatched up to exploit others does not really factor in. Those factors do not make this sort of action any more or less ethically and morally wrong.

Pascaleret · **08-31-2016, 07:30 PM**

(08-31-2016, 07:16 PM)Yssen Wrote:
(08-31-2016, 07:03 PM)Threed Crowley Wrote:
(08-31-2016, 06:41 PM)Yssen Wrote:
(08-31-2016, 06:02 PM)Threed Crowley Wrote:
(08-31-2016, 11:37 AM)Yssen Wrote: In that it is that one is using the exact same thinking to justify and proceed with the action. One takes advantage of a flawed system to the detriment of others in a community. While knowing (i hope) that what they are doing is wrong, but proceeding anyway because profit. This would be why there was the qualifier of "about the same."

But if you have an argument for how snatching up a house soley for the purpose of exploiting other player's want of housing for a massively inflated profit isn't using the same sort of douchebag logic as the above example, i'm open to hearing your argument. Yar.

That medicine is needed for someone's survival. You're not going to catch an infection and die because you didn't get a plot of land in Final Fantasy. Flipping pretend video game houses is not a matter of life and death. They only make that gil because people are willing to pay it, people who don't necessarily need a house, but want one anyway. The buyers could all band together and say nah, I'm not paying that. People who need their meds or their epipens or whatever else somebody is jacking up the price of these days don't always have that option. It's nowhere even close to "about the same".

I never said it was the same in terms of severity or life and death, I said it was using the same douchebag logic as the prior example. That is how it is "about the same." It is about the same because it is an equally predatory act made without regard for others by exploiting a flawed system. It is about the same because when people buy up the limited housing space with the intent of placing an excessive premium on releasing that space to a player, they are giving them no where else to go for housing other than to pay their fee. It uses the same douchebag tactics, that is how it is "about the same."Â

The scale of the the acts severity is not what I am comparing here, it is the fact that going through with either act is equally ethically and morally bankrupt.

It's not an "equally" predatory act. Buyers can choose not to buy from a house flipper. They can choose to wait for SE to add more plots, or for the relinquish timer to tick down. People who need medicine don't have the choice of not buying or waiting for a patent to expire so they can buy a generic. Equating video game house flippers to a CEO jacking up the price of life saving medicine is a tasteless and unnecessary comparison. Some dude going into Wal-mart and buying up all the new Playstation 5s to resell on e-Bay at a huge price increase? Sure. But there was absolutely no reason to equate something as stupid as house flipping to something that is actually an incredibly evil thing to do.

As I have explained in an earlier post farther up, the devil is in the moral and ethical details. In this, these acts are the same. The scale of severity is the only thing that is different. The tactics are the same, scoop everything up so you can charge what you wish and make an ridiculous profit because you have cornered the market and are allowed to exploit others because of it. Life saving medicine, playstation 5s, pretend-y fun time housing. The severity of impact on the individuals being exploited, and the product that is being snatched up to exploit others does not really factor in. Those factors do not make this sort of action any more or less ethically and morally wrong.

As I explained in the post you replied to, it's tasteless and unnecessary for anything other than shock value to compare a serious matter to pretend-y fun time housing in any way. Even if it were about the moral and ethical details, it's still uncalled for. A house flipper isn't buying up a dozen plots with the knowledge that someone might die because they didn't get a small house in the Mist.

Gabineaux · **08-31-2016, 07:34 PM**

I still want to know what I should have been reporting. I cannot send in a reddit post as a proof. I cannot report an FC changing leadership. I can't report a discord conversation. I cannot report a voice conversation. There's no evidence there's nothing there. What should I have reported? What can we report as outsiders looking in? Anyone? Any ideas? What can we do besides not buy at all? As for me, I don't think not buying is an option. If I see someone selling a large plot for a price I can afford I will jump on that so fast my own head will spin.

..And you can send a GM to this post and nothing will get done.

I think, honestly, the best we can do is ask the GMs to do better. If they have an RMT team, well, they do, the RMT team SHOULD be looking at huge amounts of gil moving right? Why isn't that doing the trick? Maybe we could make a post on the official forums asking WHAT we can report? I mean damn, all they said is 'report it' but report WHAT.

Kilieit · **08-31-2016, 07:38 PM**

Only thing I can think of is party finder or /shout ads.

Which is like... presumably... a pretty small proportion of the instances we're discussing here. People get cocky with PF occasionally, but I haven't seen any /sh ads since the clarification went out and I assume folks are gonna be sliding away from PF into yet more third-party communications.

Yssen · **08-31-2016, 08:28 PM**

(08-31-2016, 07:34 PM)Arvid Greave Wrote: I still want to know what I should have been reporting. I cannot send in a reddit post as a proof. I cannot report an FC changing leadership. I can't report a discord conversation. I cannot report a voice conversation. There's no evidence there's nothing there. What should I have reported? What can we report as outsiders looking in? Anyone? Any ideas? What can we do besides not buy at all? As for me, I don't think not buying is an option. If I see someone selling a large plot for a price I can afford I will jump on that so fast my own head will spin.

..And you can send a GM to this post and nothing will get done.

I think, honestly, the best we can do is ask the GMs to do better. If they have an RMT team, well, they do, the RMT team SHOULD be looking at huge amounts of gil moving right? Why isn't that doing the trick? Maybe we could make a post on the official forums asking WHAT we can report? I mean damn, all they said is 'report it' but report WHAT.

Mostly simply the in game activity when you come across it. Usually helps if it is done based on something in game, but if you really wanted to you could report someone off of reddit or some other outside source if you know their in game details. Report does not launch immediate inquiry or action, it gets filed into a player's record and investigated later. The GMs don't need you to provide proof or evidence. In fact, in most cases, you can't simply with how easily most of that could be fabricated or skewed. The GMs have access to every trade, transaction, and thing you have said in game. They can find what they are looking for on their own, and will when they are looking into an issue.

The mistake here is expecting something dramatic to happen immediately, like someone being pulled into GM jail. That isn't going to happen in front of you 99% of the time. Cases where we have seen that happen are the exception, and usually come out of something glaring that the GM did not really have to investigate like a PF or Shout Ad that has been reported several times by different people.

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3.3 & 3.4 Housing Updates

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