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Domri Blackblade · **03-27-2015, 02:58 AM**

(03-27-2015, 02:51 AM)Nakoli Chalahko Wrote:
(03-27-2015, 02:20 AM)Domri Blackblade Wrote: You're not alone, sir. The only way you're going to be as silent as someone in cloth or leather is if you move overly carefully. And the pacing of that will probably be slow to the point where it is counter intuitive. I will not buy the dead silence in plate during movement thing.

Quietly? Sure. Unnoticeable? Not a chance.

I agree that you couldn't do it silently, but I still maintain that it is possible still to sneak up on people whilst wearing a full harness, given I have done it. is it easier to hear someone in plate over leather or cloth, but by no means is it a given that you will.

I was more or less speaking of the plate-rogue trope in roleplay. Not subtle movements.

Aduu Avagnar · **03-27-2015, 03:01 AM**

(03-27-2015, 02:58 AM)Domri Blackblade Wrote:
(03-27-2015, 02:51 AM)Nako Wrote:
(03-27-2015, 02:20 AM)Domri Blackblade Wrote: You're not alone, sir. The only way you're going to be as silent as someone in cloth or leather is if you move overly carefully. And the pacing of that will probably be slow to the point where it is counter intuitive. I will not buy the dead silence in plate during movement thing.

Quietly? Sure. Unnoticeable? Not a chance.

I agree that you couldn't do it silently, but I still maintain that it is possible still to sneak up on people whilst wearing a full harness, given I have done it. is it easier to hear someone in plate over leather or cloth, but by no means is it a given that you will.

I was more or less speaking of the plate-rogue trope in roleplay. Not subtle movements.

hell, in LARP sometimes its easier to notice the person trying to be sneaky over the person in full plate because of how they're moving XD

Meena · **03-27-2015, 05:38 AM**

(03-27-2015, 03:01 AM)Nako Wrote:
(03-27-2015, 02:58 AM)Domri Blackblade Wrote:
(03-27-2015, 02:51 AM)Nako Wrote:
(03-27-2015, 02:20 AM)Domri Blackblade Wrote: You're not alone, sir. The only way you're going to be as silent as someone in cloth or leather is if you move overly carefully. And the pacing of that will probably be slow to the point where it is counter intuitive. I will not buy the dead silence in plate during movement thing.

Quietly? Sure. Unnoticeable? Not a chance.

I agree that you couldn't do it silently, but I still maintain that it is possible still to sneak up on people whilst wearing a full harness, given I have done it. is it easier to hear someone in plate over leather or cloth, but by no means is it a given that you will.

I was more or less speaking of the plate-rogue trope in roleplay. Not subtle movements.
hell, in LARP sometimes its easier to notice the person trying to be sneaky over the person in full plate because of how they're moving XD

As a larper - I find it harder to move in hardened leather than plate.

Edvyn · **03-27-2015, 05:46 AM**

whenever i larp i shout INVISIBILITY to cast an invisibility spell but everyone still looks at me like im not invisible! and then they tell me to leave!

Kellach Woods · **03-27-2015, 07:42 AM**

Yeah - my point with plate was essentially that you're carrying a helluva extra load. The hampered movement wouldn't be so much from the armor itself being clunky but from not being trained to move with it on which, SURPRISINGLY ENOUGH, isn't exactly the most known skill in the world.

Kind of if you stuck a strong person with the modern day equivalent. It'd take some time before they can be at 100% while wearing the equipment, but it's no fault of the equipment itself.

Also, another funny thing is that NPCs don't wear armor often, even those that are on duty. I can count the Sultansworn, some adventurers and that's it. Not even the Grand Companies do.

Dogberry · **03-27-2015, 08:24 AM**

(03-27-2015, 05:46 AM)Edvyn Wrote: whenever i larp i shout INVISIBILITY to cast an invisibility spell but everyone still looks at me like im not invisible! and then they tell me to leave!

That wasn't a larp. You were in a bank.

ChewableMorphine · **03-27-2015, 08:52 AM**

(03-27-2015, 08:24 AM)Dogberry Wrote:
(03-27-2015, 05:46 AM)Edvyn Wrote: whenever i larp i shout INVISIBILITY to cast an invisibility spell but everyone still looks at me like im not invisible! and then they tell me to leave!

That wasn't a larp. You were in a bank.

I was the teller.

You drunken shit.

Ilwe'ran · **03-27-2015, 09:26 AM**

Well, what is important to know (maybe) is the way the heavy armor were made and the fact it was rigid, the major part of the weight was - in fact - mostly dispersed on the floor and not actually carried by the knight.
But ! There is something which has a heavy weight : Hauberks and coats of mail. As they aren't rigid, the weight was directly on the shoulder.

Gegenji · **03-27-2015, 10:01 AM**

This is actually some pretty good information to have. I've made a point of mentioning that Chachan crafted his own suit of armor for himself to ensure it fit properly and was built to the exacting standards of his family. I also made note that he's made modifications to allow for more freedom of movement and speed... so it's good to know that it's not as extreme adjustments as I was originally thinking.

Little armored rabbit could be nearly as mobile in a normal suit of armor... definitely nice to know.

Caspar · **03-27-2015, 12:45 PM**

(03-27-2015, 01:15 AM)Nako Wrote:
(03-27-2015, 01:12 AM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote:
(03-27-2015, 01:09 AM)Nako Wrote:
(03-27-2015, 12:57 AM)Domri Blackblade Wrote: I find the ability to 'sneak' when you are a walking garbage can is something more falsely abused than restricted movement.
As someone who has worn a full plate harness before, it is entirely possible to do, though it is of course more difficult.

as long as you don't have anything loose hitting the armour, then you don't actually get that much of a clanging sound, and the joints (provided they are cared for properly) don't make that much noise.

The problem with that justification is it pretty much opens the doors to eliminating any and all meaningful drawbacks that exist. Especially since it's usually accompanied by 'magical enchantments that somehow make the material reflect and dampen magic as well as bullets.'

There's a certain charm to the classic approach of melee combatants being very physically powerful but not stealthy or particularly agile. Each to their own though!
Creating a drawback that does not exist is a bad way of counteracting it though. The justification is one that is one based on real life. If cared for properly, and you move correctly it is entirely possible to sneak in armour.

if you watch the video, the issue that you get is quick sudden movements (which are counterintuitive to sneaking/stalking anyway).

(03-27-2015, 01:14 AM)Klinzahr Wrote: The only thing that really confuses me, is when folks try to emoteÂ swimmingÂ in plate....
yeah... thats just idiocy...

Actually, as improbable as that sounds, you can swim in full plate, again, if it's properly fitted to you. It's just not as easy. The fact that you can move well in full plate doesn't magically make the weight of the armor disappear; it only means that you're not a slow, uncoordinated robot man while wearing it. You're still heavy, but you're not incapable of running or even jumping, provided you're bulked up enough to do it, and are used to the weight distributed across your body. If it interferes with anything, I'd guess it's probably range of movement, but most armor is designed to allow at least the most useful minimum without any real trouble, so that isn't too extreme of a disadvantage. I guess the armor is probably pretty hot too? That can sap at your endurance. Again you can train to be used to it, but I think it'd still wear you down eventually. An armor can be ventilated, but how much or how little impacts the protective value, I'd imagine. That's sort of the limit as to what I understand about it.

Swimming in mail, however, would be much harder. With plate you can at least swim a short distance, but I'd think swimming in mail would be extremely dangerous. It can be heavier and the weight is distributed on your shoulders, pulling you down. I think the idea that it was impossible to swim in plate armor came from the fact that most medieval men couldn't swim anyway. Not to mention, if you panicked and were wearing an additional 50 pounds you wanted to get out of immediately, it was nearly impossible to do so.

As for sneaking, the movies I see on youtube suggest they're a little noisy, but nothing you couldn't hide behind background noise. In areas with a high wind, it might be difficult to hear a man in armor sneaking. If you attempted to be stealthy, rushing water could easily mask your sound. The times when the armor is loudest seem to be when moving suddenly or in ranges of motion the armor is not intended to frequently cover, such as climbing, crouching or running. I guess if you want to sneak in armor, walk as normally and quietly as possible.

Coatleque · **03-27-2015, 12:56 PM**

Regarding the weight issue:
I would imagine most full-plate armors are actually lighter than their chain/scale counterparts. The actual plates of full-plate are millimeters thick in some cases. Where as the rings of chain are 1/8 to 1/4 inch thick iron.

Having made my own chain shirt of galvanized iron at one point, I can testify that a vest from neck to waist, with shoulders (not sleeves) weight 40 lbs by itself.

I'd also like to point out an in-game observation. The Gallant Sultansworn armor in particular that a lot of people call full-plate is in fact only half-plate. It has boots, gauntlets, and shoulders of plate, but the hauberk is a mixture of chain and scale mails.

Caspar · **03-27-2015, 01:02 PM**

(03-27-2015, 12:56 PM)Coatleque Wrote: Regarding the weight issue:
I would imagine most full-plate armors are actually lighter than their chain/scale counterparts. Â The actual plates of full-plate are millimeters thick in some cases. Â Where as the rings of chain are 1/8 to 1/4 inch thick iron.

Having made my own chain shirt of galvanized iron at one point, I can testify that a vest from neck to waist, with shoulders (not sleeves) weight 40 lbs by itself.

I'd also like to point out an in-game observation. Â The Gallant Sultansworn armor in particular that a lot of people call full-plate is in fact only half-plate. Â It has boots, gauntlets, and shoulders of plate, but the hauberk is a mixture of chain and scale mails.

Yeah, there's actually very little full plate in the game. Mostly just generic, aetherial armor, the darksteel armor, and darklight armor. Oh and I guess Of the Divine War set and Varlet's set technically are fullplate as well. The Noct set has a lorica in a vaguely greco/roman style with ludicrous pauldrons. The Ironworks, I er, I dunno. Kevlar?

Aduu Avagnar · **03-27-2015, 01:16 PM**

The most important armour!

[Image: o-GUINEA-PIG-ARMOR-facebook.jpg]

Khadan · **03-27-2015, 01:48 PM**

Was this a thing that was in question, before?Â

Anyway, we also need to keep in mind the different kinds of armor and harness. Not all Harness is the same as other harness. For example an armored lancer (not the dragoon kind but the jousting kind) is going to use a different kind of plate and harness than an unmounted man-at-arms. There's also different levels of plate such as plate-and-chain, plate-and-harness, half-plate, full-plate, and so on and so forth.

Would I think that a man in full mounted plate and harness who is then on foot and trying to be 'stealthy' is a thing? Well probably not because holy crap that armor is definitely not designed to be quiet; it's designed to protect you from swords, axes, and if you're extremely lucky the piercing blow of a war lance.

Now a man in half-plate or well made plate-and-chain with leather backing? You wouldn't be catwoman levels of ninja sneakery but you could hide in the woods and ambush an enemy position at night even at a full run; also to note that your boots would likely be louder than your armor since most armed men would use either steel or iron-heeled boots or hobnailed boots.

But that's literally only a tiny fraction of the overall situation. Armor has a long and extremely detailed history and no two are exactly alike. Much like swords and other weapons, you pick the right tool for the job. If you're wanting to ambush people and be generally more 'stealthy' then you want a different kind of tool for the job. Are you going to be in a mounted charge against an enemy infantry line? Different armor for the job. Going to be in a line fight? You want forward facing half-plate and plenty of chain mail over your joints etc etc.

Anyway, like in all things manual, you always pick the right tool for the job. Combat is really no different =)

Harmonixer · **03-27-2015, 06:51 PM**

Fanfuckin'tastic post OP!

Quite happy to see this. While a lot of the armors in the game are much more ornate and absurd in design it does help dispel the common train of thought that is 'if you're in plate you are unable to move quickly or effectively!'

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Yes, you can move in full Plate Harness

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