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Rahal · **06-07-2015, 12:48 PM**

(06-06-2015, 08:31 PM)Foxberry Wrote:
(06-06-2015, 08:19 PM)Nako Wrote: Thaumaturgy itself isn't nefarious. It is rooted in death, true, but that is also because the school of magic formed from the funeral rites of the Order of Nald'thal.

Oh yes, but I'm also addressing it from a character's perspective.
BLM is actually the 'nefarious' aspect, but for the character she'd still be hesitant in learning anything thaumaturgy related. Goody-goody lawful good. Bleh~

Not true. Black Magic is a not a school of magic or really nefarious or malicious. it is a technique that allows the mage to bypass thier own natural aethetic limitations. White mage does the same thing.

Thaumaturgy draws upon the aether from within (think D&D Sorcerer) and Conjury just borrows aether from the land (Think Estelle from Tales of Vesperia). Black Magic and White Magic draw upon outside sources. White Mages borrow power from the Elementals (Think D&D cleric), while Black Mages might draw it from the land for example or by using say an item as a vessel for aether, or even attempting by messing around with voidsent.

No school of magic is inherently good or evil. Just the user.

Sophia_Grave · **06-07-2015, 12:59 PM**

(06-07-2015, 12:48 PM)Rahal Wrote: Not true. Black Magic is a not a school of magic or really nefarious or malicious. it is a technique that allows the mage to bypass thier own natural aethetic limitations. White mage does the same thing.

Thaumaturgy draws upon the aether from within (think D&D Sorcerer) and Conjury just borrows aether from the land (Think Estelle from Tales of Vesperia). Black Magic and White Magic draw upon outside sources. White Mages borrow power from the Elementals (Think D&D cleric), while Black Mages might draw it from the land for example or by using say an item as a vessel for aether, or even attempting by messing around with voidsent.

No school of magic is inherently good or evil. Just the user.

I was under the impression that Black Magic is far more forceful with its borrowing than White Magic. Doesn't it tear holes to and from the void and kill/hurt the immediate area that the aether is drawn from?

Rahal · **06-07-2015, 01:23 PM**

Actually most of the BLM questline is fixing that sort of thing. One way a BLM can gain power if through the void, but that is just one way. A good chunk of the THM questline is also about someone that failed to become a THM due to having a tiny aether pool (for lack of a better term), trying to find a way to increase it.

The reason why Black Magic and White magic are forbidden is because of the overuse of them. If you want to see a great example of it, go to North Shroud and run to the west exit by Coerthas. That was one of the sites during the War of the Magi. Both Black Magic and White Magic take aether from the lifestream, which kills the land in the process. That area in the North Shroud was a place that has not yet healed, and likely never will due to the Shard of Dalamud there. Even though in the game's storyline, Bahamut is no longer a threat, the corruption caused by the shard being there might have made the damage irreversible. The game never really says.

BLM being more forceful? Sure I could see a caster being more forceful, tearing aether from sources would be something a more malevolent, nefarious or even desperate BLM would do. The game has established since the beginning of 1.0 it's possible for people to channel power to each other (Making Yda's Limit Break in the 2.0 ending both possible and awesome, though Limit Breaks in XIV have always worked that way), so tearing power forcibly from an unwilling source would be something there in the Lore. IIRC Ultima Weapon was a warmachine working on that concept.

Rahal · **06-07-2015, 01:36 PM**

Sorry about the double post, but I found an excellent write up on the source of a BLM's power:

http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread....#pid181211

Sounsyy writes it far more eloquently than I can put it, and they also take until account all of the 1.0 Lore as well

V'aleera · **06-07-2015, 09:40 PM**

I feel like "borrowing" is kind of an odd word to use for Black Magic. It's not like they give it back when they're done.

Gone. · **06-07-2015, 09:43 PM**

White magic borrows, or rather rearranges aether. Black magic just eats it up.

That's not to say that the latter can't be used respectfully, however. As Rahal said, ultimately it's how the mage uses their powers that defines moral standing.

LiadansWhisper · **06-07-2015, 09:47 PM**

(06-07-2015, 09:43 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: White magic borrows, or rather rearranges aether. Black magic just eats it up.

That's not to say that the latter can't be used respectfully, however. As Rahal said, ultimately it's how the mage uses their powers that defines moral standing.

That's not exactly true. Â Both forms of magic "borrow" Aether. Â Both can be misused if too much Aether is stripped from the land. Â It's just that Black Magic tends to be more overtly destructive in terms of what it is used for than White Magic is.

However, White Magic is every bit as destructive as Black Magic if it's misused. Â And even people with really good intentions can severely harm the land by using it the wrong way.

Gone. · **06-07-2015, 09:55 PM**

I'm pretty sure "ultimately it's how the mage uses their powers that defines moral standing" implies that both forms of magic can be abused...

Fox · **06-07-2015, 09:56 PM**

Actually... Nevermind. It's not important.

LiadansWhisper · **06-07-2015, 10:05 PM**

(06-07-2015, 09:55 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: I'm pretty sure "ultimately it's how the mage uses their powers that defines moral standing" implies that both forms of magic can be abused...

My point was more that you can be doing this Really Great Thing ™ as a White Mage, that saves a bunch of lives and is generally amazing and awesome. Â Or, at least, you think you're doing the right thing. Â And you're still destroying the land (though probably not in a way that you immediately realize). Â That's the issue with White Magic - even doing the right thing, you can still screw everything up. Â Which is why the Elementals were like, "Nope, no one else gets to use this, you guys keep blowing things up. Â I know you mean well, but you're not touching the hot stove anymore."

V'aleera · **06-07-2015, 10:53 PM**

(06-07-2015, 10:05 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: "Nope, no one else gets to use this, you guys keep blowing things up."

"Now watch while we drown everybody because we're pissed off and having a bad day."

LiadansWhisper · **06-07-2015, 10:56 PM**

(06-07-2015, 10:53 PM)Intaki Wrote:
(06-07-2015, 10:05 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: "Nope, no one else gets to use this, you guys keep blowing things up."
"Now watch while we drown everybody because we're pissed off and having a bad day."

I actually thought the whole drowning thing was them saying, "No, you can't have that anymore." Â I got the feeling they were looking for parallels with the Biblical Flood, if you will. Â Mankind becomes too evil to allow to continue one, queue lots of water to "wash" things clean.

Gone. · **06-07-2015, 10:57 PM**

Which puts elementals in the moral wrong, really. I'm pretty sure a lot of innocent people drowned that day.

(06-07-2015, 10:05 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: My point was more that you can be doing this Really Great Thing ™ as a White Mage, that saves a bunch of lives and is generally amazing and awesome. Â Or, at least, you think you're doing the right thing. Â And you're still destroying the land (though probably not in a way that you immediately realize). Â That's the issue with White Magic - even doing the right thing, you can still screw everything up. Â Which is why the Elementals were like, "Nope, no one else gets to use this, you guys keep blowing things up. Â I know you mean well, but you're not touching the hot stove anymore."

You're basically restating what I already pointed out, but okay...

V'aleera · **06-07-2015, 11:02 PM**

Elementals seem a lot like Ascians, really: they want the world to be their way no matter who has to get stepped on. And to further this goal they lend power out to their lackeys.

LiadansWhisper · **06-07-2015, 11:21 PM**

(06-07-2015, 10:57 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: Which puts elementals in the moral wrong, really. I'm pretty sure a lot of innocent people drowned that day.

Sure, if you ascribe Human morality to beings that are not, and never have been, human.

(06-07-2015, 11:02 PM)Intaki Wrote: Elementals seem a lot like Ascians, really: they want the world to be their way no matter who has to get stepped on. And to further this goal they lend power out to their lackeys.

Not really. Â What the Elementals did was specifically to save the world from being destroyed.

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