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Tumensuns · **08-06-2015, 06:09 PM**

(08-06-2015, 05:08 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(08-06-2015, 04:56 PM)Tumensuns Wrote: If it's in a tournament, it's up to the host to lay down ground rules before hand. If this is random RP, I'd more than likely dissolve the session and leave because I ground roleplay on the basis of reality as per the universe the roleplay is taking place in. I'm not going to give up my values on this to appease anybody, and my experiences with this is the person who believes they can punch me into the sun tends to not want to talk it over, so it's not really worth the effort and time.

If this was a Dragonball Z MMO, then being thrown into the sun is possible, but this is Eorzea, and that level of super strength has not been seen or recorded by the games lore standards. If they want to call me a godmoder because I don't believe in their denial of the reality of the universe, then I have no problem calling them a godmoder for breaking it, but it's all very moot because I simply leave them be so they can continue doing whatever they want, but it doesn't have to involve me.

The trouble with XIV, though, is that we DO have some examples of this sort of thing. 2.55 ending cutscenes feature full-on environmental destruction, and the Hildebrand questline features a number of superhuman feats.

Not that I don't feel the same way as you do, but these are frequently the counterpoint to "realism" being invoked.

What Raubahn can do is considerable, yes, and as a scapegoat we can blow it on intense rage fueled by his emotions and adrenaline, but for anyone short of Raubahn being able to do the same feat no problem is a bit... disarming. heh

As for Godbert. He's a God. 'nuff said.

Kage · **08-06-2015, 06:13 PM**

(08-06-2015, 06:09 PM)Tumensuns Wrote:
(08-06-2015, 05:08 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(08-06-2015, 04:56 PM)Tumensuns Wrote: If it's in a tournament, it's up to the host to lay down ground rules before hand. If this is random RP, I'd more than likely dissolve the session and leave because I ground roleplay on the basis of reality as per the universe the roleplay is taking place in. I'm not going to give up my values on this to appease anybody, and my experiences with this is the person who believes they can punch me into the sun tends to not want to talk it over, so it's not really worth the effort and time.

If this was a Dragonball Z MMO, then being thrown into the sun is possible, but this is Eorzea, and that level of super strength has not been seen or recorded by the games lore standards. If they want to call me a godmoder because I don't believe in their denial of the reality of the universe, then I have no problem calling them a godmoder for breaking it, but it's all very moot because I simply leave them be so they can continue doing whatever they want, but it doesn't have to involve me.

The trouble with XIV, though, is that we DO have some examples of this sort of thing. 2.55 ending cutscenes feature full-on environmental destruction, and the Hildebrand questline features a number of superhuman feats.

Not that I don't feel the same way as you do, but these are frequently the counterpoint to "realism" being invoked.

What Raubahn can do is considerable, yes, and as a scapegoat we can blow it on intense rage fueled by his emotions and adrenaline, but for anyone short of Raubahn being able to do the same feat no problem is a bit... disarming. heh

As for Godbert. He's a God. 'nuff said.

The fight wasn't just Raubahn though or are you saying Raubahn had to be met through a etheric means by thatoneguyiforgothowtospell?

Aaron · **08-06-2015, 06:17 PM**

(08-06-2015, 06:13 PM)Kage Wrote:
(08-06-2015, 06:09 PM)Tumensuns Wrote:
(08-06-2015, 05:08 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(08-06-2015, 04:56 PM)Tumensuns Wrote: If it's in a tournament, it's up to the host to lay down ground rules before hand. If this is random RP, I'd more than likely dissolve the session and leave because I ground roleplay on the basis of reality as per the universe the roleplay is taking place in. I'm not going to give up my values on this to appease anybody, and my experiences with this is the person who believes they can punch me into the sun tends to not want to talk it over, so it's not really worth the effort and time.

If this was a Dragonball Z MMO, then being thrown into the sun is possible, but this is Eorzea, and that level of super strength has not been seen or recorded by the games lore standards. If they want to call me a godmoder because I don't believe in their denial of the reality of the universe, then I have no problem calling them a godmoder for breaking it, but it's all very moot because I simply leave them be so they can continue doing whatever they want, but it doesn't have to involve me.

The trouble with XIV, though, is that we DO have some examples of this sort of thing. 2.55 ending cutscenes feature full-on environmental destruction, and the Hildebrand questline features a number of superhuman feats.

Not that I don't feel the same way as you do, but these are frequently the counterpoint to "realism" being invoked.

What Raubahn can do is considerable, yes, and as a scapegoat we can blow it on intense rage fueled by his emotions and adrenaline, but for anyone short of Raubahn being able to do the same feat no problem is a bit... disarming. heh

As for Godbert. He's a God. 'nuff said.
The fight wasn't just Raubahn though or are you saying Raubahn had to be met through a etheric means by thatoneguyiforgothowtospell?

Theres plenty more example of people having superhuman feats all throughout the game.

You have lalafell being war generals and dealing with beastmen like Amaal. I doubt they got to that point just by being cute.

Same for DRG leaping high in the air, or Cartaneau with people dodging bullets.

Sure you could tone it down, but you gotta realize this worlds not realistic enough to the point everything has to have a realistic basis. There's a thing called taking it too far sure, but its not ridiculous to see a person kick another person so hard they fly back slamming into a tree.

Edit - dammit quoted wrong person

Sounsyy · **08-06-2015, 07:43 PM**

(08-06-2015, 04:13 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Two people are fighting one another. One is super over the top, complete with Tekken-style air juggling. The other is a gritty, super-duper-realism fighter.

So if the over-the-top style attempts to uppercut the gritty style into the sun, which result should be permitted? Does the gritty person godmode a result by only allowing themselves to be hit and nothing else? Does the over-the-top person godmode by forcing the other person to deal with cartoon physics?

As one of those "gritty" fighters who has (on multiple occasions) been subjected to Crouching Tiger physics, I can say first hand that compromises are necessary to make the experience not awkward for both parties.

Sounsyy's entire character concept is designed to be a rather grounded person in most aspects. This includes fighting. She's weak aetherically, she gets fatigued, she can't jump to save her life - let alone do acrobatics. She's not a gymnast. But I recognize this isn't a concept that everyone will adopt. In the setting, there are extraordinary figures and there are the Red Shirt guys, often in the same cutscene. Roleplayers fall into many places on this spectrum. Eventually (if you're doing tournament style fighting like Grindstone) you're going to come across someone who's physics settings are wildly outside your own.

The only thing I know to do in that situation is to discuss it with your partner if it's so left field from what you're willing to expose your character to. (I might expect to be flung 20 yalms if Sounsyy was struck by Leviathan's tail or something, not by a Midlander's right hook.) If the attack is more vague on what exactly its intention is, I don't see the problem in warping the effects to something more middle-ground. For instance, I (personally) find it hard to believe a Highlander could do a front flip onto Sounsyy's sword and land there anime style. More improbable is that Sounsyy... could hold that. So, if they win the roll, they will land on Sounsyy's blade... and Sounsyy will drop them.

Caspar · **08-06-2015, 09:42 PM**

(08-06-2015, 07:43 PM)Sounsyy Wrote:
(08-06-2015, 04:13 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Two people are fighting one another. One is super over the top, complete with Tekken-style air juggling. The other is a gritty, super-duper-realism fighter.

So if the over-the-top style attempts to uppercut the gritty style into the sun, which result should be permitted? Does the gritty person godmode a result by only allowing themselves to be hit and nothing else? Does the over-the-top person godmode by forcing the other person to deal with cartoon physics?

As one of those "gritty" fighters who has (on multiple occasions) been subjected to Crouching Tiger physics, I can say first hand that compromises are necessary to make the experience not awkward for both parties.

Sounsyy's entire character concept is designed to be a rather grounded person in most aspects. This includes fighting. She's weak aetherically, she gets fatigued, she can't jump to save her life - let alone do acrobatics. She's not a gymnast. But I recognize this isn't a concept that everyone will adopt. In the setting, there are extraordinary figures and there are the Red Shirt guys, often in the same cutscene. Roleplayers fall into many places on this spectrum. Eventually (if you're doing tournament style fighting like Grindstone) you're going to come across someone who's physics settings are wildly outside your own.

The only thing I know to do in that situation is to discuss it with your partner if it's so left field from what you're willing to expose your character to. (I might expect to be flung 20 yalms if Sounsyy was struck by Leviathan's tail or something, not by a Midlander's right hook.) If the attack is more vague on what exactly its intention is, I don't see the problem in warping the effects to something more middle-ground. For instance, I (personally) find it hard to believe a Highlander could do a front flip onto Sounsyy's sword and land there anime style. More improbable is that Sounsyy... could hold that. So, if they win the roll, they will land on Sounsyy's blade... and Sounsyy will drop them.

I agree with this. Nothing wrong with being a non-powered fighter, but you have a strong grasp of the setting as everyone knows, and are aware that the gritty approach is not the dominant paradigm by any means. You're ready for it to happen, and react to it in the most realistic way, while at the same time not giving in too much to their demands. Organically adjusting character strength on the go is the smartest way to do things, not enforcing a view of what is possible and what is not. Fight scenes in the end, after all, are not a competition but rather cooperative choreography, with potentially a random element thrown in if rolls are used.

I still think a big problem that constantly occurs is the matter of what is realistic and what is believable. Little of what happens in the setting gameplay wise and story wise can be considered realistic and a lot flies in the face of physics, and what is believable depends on the player in question. Thus the only way a fight scene can be resolved in a way that is in any sense satisfactory to both parties is if they are willing to meet halfway like you said. As there are supernaturally empowered fighters, their advantages do not necessarily translate to being immune to basic combat tactics. You can't stand if your balance is ruined. You can't chant a spell if muzzled. All these things translate to reasonable narrative hooks to make a seemingly underdog non-powered character (really effectively equal for all ooc intents and purposes) a legitimate chance to win. I wrote into a situation like this with Sounssy once too. If you can write it well and sell it, any method can work, but that assumes a certain level of cooperation that I feel isn't normally present in competitive events, especially when pairing strangers.

Thorgar · **08-06-2015, 10:50 PM**

the ones i hate:

*i wave my hand and stop your attack with my god like magic power"

actually had a chump do this in City of Heroes.Â its the only response he posted, every time, i think he had it on a macro. here was my counter.

"I just discovered a god has given you a lethal virus and you will die in 5 seconds if i don't save you" *attempts to inject you with the cure*

of course hes response was *i wave my hand and stop your attack with my god like magic power" when we pointed out what had happened he got pissed and logged, didnt see him for months it was wonderful lol.

it makes things far easier to just sit down and talk oocly before engaging in any RP combat.

Ziv'ir · **08-07-2015, 12:56 AM**

(08-06-2015, 06:13 PM)Kage Wrote:
(08-06-2015, 06:09 PM)Tumensuns Wrote:
(08-06-2015, 05:08 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(08-06-2015, 04:56 PM)Tumensuns Wrote: If it's in a tournament, it's up to the host to lay down ground rules before hand. If this is random RP, I'd more than likely dissolve the session and leave because I ground roleplay on the basis of reality as per the universe the roleplay is taking place in. I'm not going to give up my values on this to appease anybody, and my experiences with this is the person who believes they can punch me into the sun tends to not want to talk it over, so it's not really worth the effort and time.

If this was a Dragonball Z MMO, then being thrown into the sun is possible, but this is Eorzea, and that level of super strength has not been seen or recorded by the games lore standards. If they want to call me a godmoder because I don't believe in their denial of the reality of the universe, then I have no problem calling them a godmoder for breaking it, but it's all very moot because I simply leave them be so they can continue doing whatever they want, but it doesn't have to involve me.

The trouble with XIV, though, is that we DO have some examples of this sort of thing. 2.55 ending cutscenes feature full-on environmental destruction, and the Hildebrand questline features a number of superhuman feats.

Not that I don't feel the same way as you do, but these are frequently the counterpoint to "realism" being invoked.

What Raubahn can do is considerable, yes, and as a scapegoat we can blow it on intense rage fueled by his emotions and adrenaline, but for anyone short of Raubahn being able to do the same feat no problem is a bit... disarming. heh

As for Godbert. He's a God. 'nuff said.
The fight wasn't just Raubahn though or are you saying Raubahn had to be met through a etheric means by thatoneguyiforgothowtospell?

It's not complete unreasonable but I've had a good deal of balance-breaking interactions with people via combat/random rolling rp in xiv. Being extremely powerful in this universe is a thing but I think what I've had a far greater issue with in these type of situations is magical or aetheric abilities that go above and beyond what would be standard than simply super amazing at combat folks. Especially when this type of thing isn't mentioned oocly/explained it can be a bit redic and jarring.

Everyone rps differently, is the thing to remember. And tbh it's final fantasy - I've come to expect an element of 'over the top'. Yet, as said above it's a bit disarming when your run of the mill adventurer who is able to do almost godly combat.

I wouldn't necessarily call this type of thing godmodding, I guess, so much as over the top and broken. I wouldn't really call someone out as a godmodder if they're playing in the confines of the rolls, but ultimately I'm gonna give those folks who are mega overthetop a bit wider girth and not really rp with them much.

Cato · **08-07-2015, 01:01 AM**

Ultimately it's a matter of being able to give and take in healthy doses. Even if a book, movie or game has a main character the story would become very dull and tiresome if only the main character ended up being relevant and successful.

This is no different within role-play. Everybody's character is their 'main character' and the primary focus of the story they want to tell. Ideally, though, they're not going to be super powerful and able to overcome any obstacle set before them. Sometimes they'll fail, experience unexpected losses and setbacks. They'll have their triumphs, of course - but not constantly.

People are free to have their character be the perpetual hero, of course, but if they're really only looking to treat everybody else's character as destined to lose then one has to wonder why they've invested in a group activity and won't just go off to create fan-fiction to detail how amazing their character supposedly is instead.

Caspar · **08-07-2015, 01:21 AM**

(08-07-2015, 01:01 AM)Graeham Wrote: Ultimately it's a matter of being able to give and take in healthy doses. Even if a book, movie or game has a main character the story would become very dull and tiresome if only the main character ended up being relevant and successful.

This is no different within role-play. Everybody's character is their 'main character' and the primary focus of the story they want to tell. Ideally, though, they're not going to be super powerful and able to overcome any obstacle set before them. Sometimes they'll fail, experience unexpected losses and setbacks. They'll have their triumphs, of course - but not constantly.

People are free to have their character be the perpetual hero, of course, but if they're really only looking to treat everybody else's character as destined to lose then one has to wonder why they've invested in a group activity and won't just go off to create fan-fiction to detail how amazing their character supposedly is instead.

It can be more interesting to lose too.
I made my character to specifically lose repeatedly at certain points. Granted, that was assuming she'd win at least once in a while to build credibility haha. XD
But it was a deliberate part of the character development. When strong, show an area in which they are weak. Sometimes I even prefer to take the opposite approach to characters than most people on here: I make an extremely powerful character and wear them away until they can hardly fight by the end, as it tends to have a deleterious effect on your health over the years. Or they are very strong, but the situations that get thrown at them can't be solved with brute force and they inevitably fail.

Momo · **08-07-2015, 03:35 PM**

I agree with Graeham on most of his points, this is as normal an occurrence as in any other kind of RP, style and approach of the person on the other side of this relationship matters. Â Know thy enemy if you wish to face them in a fight that you hope has a more realistic edge, perhaps have a general few questions asked of the other RPer to generate their opinion on the kinds of things you do or do not like to see?

When something you deem as unrealistic or not in good standing with how you RP happen, this is not an act of all RPers in battle, as usual, it is of that single person who may or may not be a decent RPer and/or care one way or the other what your style of RP is. Â That kind of a person is someone I would be better to simply walk away from, than negotiate with or take verbal issue with. Â Case by case basis is how I normally RP, and when entering into a situation as delicate as battle can be, that is a case in which I would prefer to know all the angles beforehand lest I lose my favorite character to mortal wounds, or need to regress back to the point before the battle, thus having wasted time I could have spent doing better suited things.

Aduu Avagnar · **08-08-2015, 05:14 AM**

I personally disagree with the quote in question.

You can't enforce suspension of disbelief. And not agreeing with someone elses intepretation of the lore and setting is an expected part of rp, especially in an mmo where so much is left unexplained.

As to the fight, I tend to just go with my routine style and allow the oponent to describe what happens as the result. For example:

Quote:Nako sets his feet and brings his shield in low, angling it so that the blow slides off the surface. His sword traces an arc through the air, aimed at his oponents exposed elbow.

The only thing I have done which is a direct interaction is complete the action of the oponents attack, which is an expected part of fight rp. No god modding involved, and the oponent can apply their own physics to their next emote.

Interpretation of setting and the application thereof is not the same as forcing your will upon anothers character.

Yssen · **08-08-2015, 08:59 AM**

I think there is a little bit of a difference between godmoding and failure to compromise.Â

Godmoding is set specifically making one's character untouchable regardless of the player's interpretation of the setting/lore. This behavior usually stems from a single player.

Failure to compromise stems from a both players inability to reconcile different views of the setting. This can bee seen as a failure on the part of one player, the other, or both.Â

Someone interpreting the setting differently from you is not godmoding, no matter what power level they (or you) might believe to be the average for most PCs. Forcing a world particular world view on others (particularly when there is no way to be right and no way to be wrong) is a slightly different issue than godmoding. You either engage in compromise to let the RP flow, or you do not. You cannot, however, point the finger of godmoding at another player when you yourself are unwilling to compromise in a given situation.

Just my two cents.

Tiergan · **08-08-2015, 12:44 PM**

(08-06-2015, 07:43 PM)Sounsyy Wrote:
(08-06-2015, 04:13 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Two people are fighting one another. One is super over the top, complete with Tekken-style air juggling. The other is a gritty, super-duper-realism fighter.

So if the over-the-top style attempts to uppercut the gritty style into the sun, which result should be permitted? Does the gritty person godmode a result by only allowing themselves to be hit and nothing else? Does the over-the-top person godmode by forcing the other person to deal with cartoon physics?

As one of those "gritty" fighters who has (on multiple occasions) been subjected to Crouching Tiger physics, I can say first hand that compromises are necessary to make the experience not awkward for both parties.

Sounsyy's entire character concept is designed to be a rather grounded person in most aspects. This includes fighting. She's weak aetherically, she gets fatigued, she can't jump to save her life - let alone do acrobatics. She's not a gymnast. But I recognize this isn't a concept that everyone will adopt. In the setting, there are extraordinary figures and there are the Red Shirt guys, often in the same cutscene. Roleplayers fall into many places on this spectrum. Eventually (if you're doing tournament style fighting like Grindstone) you're going to come across someone who's physics settings are wildly outside your own.

The only thing I know to do in that situation is to discuss it with your partner if it's so left field from what you're willing to expose your character to. (I might expect to be flung 20 yalms if Sounsyy was struck by Leviathan's tail or something, not by a Midlander's right hook.) If the attack is more vague on what exactly its intention is, I don't see the problem in warping the effects to something more middle-ground. For instance, I (personally) find it hard to believe a Highlander could do a front flip onto Sounsyy's sword and land there anime style. More improbable is that Sounsyy... could hold that. So, if they win the roll, they will land on Sounsyy's blade... and Sounsyy will drop them.

^^^^^^ Pretty much my thoughts on the matter. Or if the two fight styles are completely irreconcilable (I'm more in the gritty-realism camp and other guy is Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon Meets Goku and Naruto's secret love child) - I just find excuses for Tiergan never to fight them or just outright admit that I don't think our RP styles are compatible for fighting.

Server's big enough for me to find folks I do enjoy combat RP with after all.

Paradox · **08-08-2015, 12:53 PM**

As far as the two suspensions of disbelief meeting in the middle, one simply has to look at Final Fantasy XIV's laws of physics and combat to find what is and isn't possible. And that is..that it's inconsistent. We often see massive feats of strength and magic, and not just form the WoL, but from many individuals. The fact is, the game is cinematic, anime-styled, and very very Japanese. Thancred does a lot of high flying acrobatic stuff, people fling fire from their fingers, we have an empire that's kind of like the Empire from Star Wars lite version mixed with the Gestahl Empire from FFVI. But we also see those sometimes superhumans beaten when they shouldn't be, or not using that strength or magic at certain intervals when it would be useful to advance the plot along. As far as Godmodding. Well, it's fairly cut and dry. What was described by the OP is more about 'style' than 'godmodding'. Someone prefers to disregard all the anime style fighting the game presents is entirely feasible by lore because they're not comfortable with it. Another does use it because it has precedent. That's up to them to figure out in method and flow. That's clashing styles. It just requires compromise, or the ability to recognize compromise isn't possible.

Godmodding is a lot easier to deal with. If my character casts a spell to drop a meteor on your head without any way of disengaging from the attack, forcing your character to take the entire hit, that's godmodding. If he casts a spell to drop a meteor on your head but leaves several avenues of escape that still might result in you getting some burns or scrapes or damage, that's more feasible. Yes, you can dodge a spell, a sword, a bullet, what have you, but it's important to remember you can't dodge *all* the time. That's the tricky part about godmodding, at least in combat. You have the right to avoid an attack and not have the *full* effect forced on you. However, dodging all the time to *no* effect against you is as equally godmoddy. It's fine to fully dodge some of the time, because if you didn't, fights would be over way too fast. There's an example in the MSQ of a protect type effect completely nullifying (What I assume at least) the impact of a normal bullet. Ultimately, in a battle, we should expect our attacks to have some effect on the other individual, without the end result being written for them, by us. Barriers should have a number of hits allowed, or a precentage of damage allowed in, based on the scale of the attack, and so on.

What it comes down to is, use good judgment, and all shall be well. Don't write people's responses or damage for them. Let them answer creatively and have both sides expect acknowledgment of effects from attacks on either side, otherwise it's not a battle. Godmodding out of combat is a no no as well. If you're pickpocketing someone, they have a chance to notice. Don't just do something and call it law without giving them a chance to respond. The story has many writers, after all. Otherwise, why interact at all?

Caspar · **08-08-2015, 03:02 PM**

(08-08-2015, 08:59 AM)Yssen Wrote: I think there is a little bit of a difference between godmoding and failure to compromise.Â

Godmoding is set specifically making one's character untouchable regardless of the player's interpretation of the setting/lore. This behavior usually stems from a single player.

Failure to compromise stems from a both players inability to reconcile different views of the setting. This can bee seen as a failure on the part of one player, the other, or both.Â

Someone interpreting the setting differently from you is not godmoding, no matter what power level they (or you) might believe to be the average for most PCs. Forcing a world particular world view on others (particularly when there is no way to be right and no way to be wrong) is a slightly different issue than godmoding. You either engage in compromise to let the RP flow, or you do not. You cannot, however, point the finger of godmoding at another player when you yourself are unwilling to compromise in a given situation.

Just my two cents.

I think Warren removing the quote from the context confused people. I stated that some were judging before playing with the other person what their character's race could and couldn't do and reacting based on that, rather than based off of what the player themselves was doing, and I felt that was godmodding, because A. It doesn't have solid basis in the lore no matter how "realistic" you think it is, and B. it disregards the other player's background, actions and intent.

Assuming what another character can do based off the information you have and not necessarily enforcing it on them, or using open ended posts to allow them to play differently than you to a certain extent, or even avoiding playing with them if you think you're incompatible; I definitely agree all these things cannot be considered godmoding, but they're different than the scenario I originally described.

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