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Folken · **06-24-2013, 10:06 PM**

(06-24-2013, 09:39 PM)Uther Wrote: Also I could see the lalafell meta-game stereotypes bothering me as well. I dislike the fact that many lala are seen as one-dimensional short or cute jokes, when a lot of lala players put in a shit load of work to make their character deep and memorable.

One of the worst being abruptly picked up by another PC in an in character RP. Not only is this completely unacceptable in an etiquette sense but it's completely unreasonable. Lalafells aren't weightless, and while they're small their weight range is still likely between 50-100lbs at least. Not to mention how rude and demeaning it is on an IC degree. (Sure, lots of lalafell players wouldn't mind it, but still.)

And Rho, I totally wanted to make a lalafell like that once, and might have with Ship if he wasn't already established as his rough self in previous things. Plus I don't like monk all too much in game xP

Maybe as an alt...hrmm.

Uther · **06-24-2013, 10:25 PM**

(06-24-2013, 10:06 PM)Shippuu Wrote: One of the worst being abruptly picked up by another PC in an in character RP. Not only is this completely unacceptable in an etiquette sense but it's completely unreasonable. Lalafells aren't weightless, and while they're small their weight range is still likely between 50-100lbs at least. Not to mention how rude and demeaning it is on an IC degree. (Sure, lots of lalafell players wouldn't mind it, but still.)

People do that? I was mentally prepared for things like:

"Hey, short stuff."

"We shouldn't bring ___ with us, he probably would be too short to hit the enemy."

and "Oh my gods, a lalafell in armor! Can you please dance for us?"

But the example you just gave would really piss me off. I realize that it's kind of the risk you take when choosing lalafell, but it still bothers me. No RPer should just assume they can man-handle anyone'sÂ character. Just because someone is playing a smaller character doesn't mean the rules change. Hopefully with my lala alt I'll be RPing with players who have manners, or at very least the logical sense to know that a lalafell in full plate armor with a large shield isn't going to be thrown around like a pillow.

I only have a few flimsy ideas for my character, but I already know he'd be pissed IC if that happened to him.

FreelanceWizard · **06-24-2013, 10:31 PM**

I know two new players who are going to likely play Lalafell who will get really, really angry (IC, of course) at people who try to play the "you're so cute" or "aw, look at the tiny Lalafell" cards. As a person who played a Gnome Warrior in WoW (Gnomish Infantry and Proud!), I agree that there's few things more annoying than those metagame behaviors -- and the best way to deal with them, IMO, is to respond appropriately IC. I know my gnome would've responded to being abruptly picked up with a throat punch to the offending party. Smile

And, of course, that sort of response IC, if picked up by enough RPers, will set the tenor of IC interactions across the server. If enough Lalafell refuse to be treated like cute children, that'll influence the IC reactions to Lalafell in general -- not to mention that I just don't see Lalafell responding too well to that sort of treatment in setting.

EDIT: @Uther: Oh, yes, people do that to small characters all the time in my experience. Beyond dwarf tossing, gnome punting, and the like, picking up small characters is shockingly common. It seems small races tend to provoke a fair amount of powerposing, probably due to their size and appearance.

Uther · **06-24-2013, 10:33 PM**

(06-24-2013, 10:31 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: I know two new players who are going to likely play Lalafell who will get really, really angry (IC, of course) at people who try to play the "you're so cute" or "aw, look at the tiny Lalafell" cards. As a person who played a Gnome Warrior in WoW (Gnomish Infantry and Proud!), I agree that there's few things more annoying than those metagame behaviors -- and the best way to deal with them, IMO, is to respond appropriately IC. I know my gnome would've responded to being abruptly picked up with a throat punch to the offending party.

And, of course, that sort of response IC, if picked up by enough RPers, will set the tenor of IC interactions across the server. If enough Lalafell refuse to be treated like cute children, that'll influence the IC reactions to Lalafell in general -- not to mention that I just don't see Lalafell responding too well to that sort of treatment in setting.

I already have "Shut your godsdamned mouth." prepared for the most dire situations.

Folken · **06-24-2013, 10:59 PM**

(06-24-2013, 10:31 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: And, of course, that sort of response IC, if picked up by enough RPers, will set the tenor of IC interactions across the server. If enough Lalafell refuse to be treated like cute children, that'll influence the IC reactions to Lalafell in general -- not to mention that I just don't see Lalafell responding too well to that sort of treatment in setting.

Sadly, this will never happen. Because for everyone one serious lalafell there are probably at least 10 or more lalafells that perpetuate these unfortunate stereotypes. There will always be scores of stuttering cutesy lalafell because that's just the kind of player their overall design appeals to sadly. So unfortunately it will persist to be a problem, but oh well.

It'd be nice if SE helped us out and gave us more NPC/storyline lalafell that break this mold, but that's unfortunately not going to happen. Especially since the only good examples we had (The twins Seserukka and Popokkuli) from 1.0 seem to not exist in ARR. Unfortunately we don't have many good ones in ARR it seems, at least none that aren't mages.

FreelanceWizard · **06-24-2013, 11:09 PM**

You're probably right. I'm being wildly optimistic and hopeful. Smile

If nothing else, though, good, strong examples might give other RPers who might otherwise not play Lalafell or who might go cutesy the push to try a more serious take.

Rhio · **06-24-2013, 11:16 PM**

(06-24-2013, 10:59 PM)Shippuu Wrote: It'd be nice if SE helped us out and gave us more NPC/storyline lalafell that break this mold, but that's unfortunately not going to happen. Especially since the only good examples we had (The twins Seserukka and Popokkuli) from 1.0 seem to not exist in ARR. Unfortunately we don't have many good ones in ARR it seems, at least none that aren't mages.

The Ul'dah storyline presents us with a lalafell that is older, distinguished, polite, and also hard as a rock. Pugilists deal with a pair of lalafell students that are both presented as serious physical threats, not as simple punchlines. That's not even counting the number of other non-cutesy lalafells I've encountered in-character, or the darn Sultana herself.

I think a lot of the image of lalafells as a joke comes about as a result of promotional bits; the game itself and the story treats them as being a legitimately important part of the peoples of Eorzea. And most of the players I've met expect to be treated as such.

In summary, lalafell are people too.

Uther · **06-24-2013, 11:23 PM**

(06-24-2013, 10:59 PM)Shippuu Wrote: Sadly, this will never happen. Because for everyone one serious lalafell there are probably at least 10 or more lalafells that perpetuate these unfortunate stereotypes.

That's a damn shame. I guess the most you can do is kind of bite the bullet and give it your best shot. One of the reasons I wanted to make a serious lalafell was because as someone who is short IRL I hate the short-cute-physically-inept stereotypes that run rampant in games like this, and I wanted to take a shot at breaking the mold. Of course, you seem to be already working on that, Ship, but the more the merrier IMO. Another reason is because I like the idea of the world seeming bigger and more dangerous. Sure, lalafell are just as skilled at combat as anyone else, but even the most serious and hardcore lalafell still has a shorter reach and a frailer body than everyone else.

In GW2 I played an Asura and he was pretty badass, but when the giant world event happened (around halloween-ish time) I still felt like a normal guy because of my height. It gave me the sense of "My ass-kicking to poor genetics ratio is off the charts, but in the end I am still just this little dude and it's going to take all of us to save the world."

^ That was a bit of rambling but I hope it made sense. Long story short, the little characters who have a lot of heart and take themselves seriously can be very complex and a lot of fun to RP. I just wish there weren't ridiculous player-made stereotypes following them around.

Folken · **06-24-2013, 11:48 PM**

(06-24-2013, 11:16 PM)Rhio Wrote: The Ul'dah storyline presents us with a lalafell that is older, distinguished, polite, and also hard as a rock. Â Pugilists deal with a pair of lalafell students that are both presented as serious physical threats, not as simple punchlines. Â That's not even counting the number of other non-cutesy lalafells I've encountered in-character, or the darn Sultana herself.

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I noticed the pugilist ones, but didn't level pugilist at beyond the first quest to see their story to see if they had a more pronounced role or not. But that's good, but at the same time we lost the mining twins so that balances out maybe a bit. Don't know the other lalafell you're talking about, unless it's the mustachioed one from the very beginning? That collects the debt? If not, got a name or picture of this lalafell?

And I don't count the Sultana, as any strong leadership she might impose, she negates with her extreme perpetuation of cutesy stuff. But she isn't bad, but not really what I'd like for a prominent lalafell figure.

(06-24-2013, 11:23 PM)Uther Wrote: That's a damn shame. I guess the most you can do is kind of bite the bullet and give it your best shot. One of the reasons I wanted to make a serious lalafell was because as someone who is short IRL I hate the short-cute-physically-inept stereotypes that run rampant in games like this, and I wanted to take a shot at breaking the mold. Of course, you seem to be already working on that, Ship, but the more the merrier IMO. Another reason is because I like the idea of the world seeming bigger and more dangerous. Sure, lalafell are just as skilled at combat as anyone else, but even the most serious and hardcore lalafell still has a shorter reach and a frailer body than everyone else.

I could easily go on a tangent on how arguably lalafell possess a superhuman level of strength. They would already possess at least twice the proportional strength of Hyur's according to the Square/Cube Law as it is, then factor in that we've seen them lift and throw objects of much greater weight (normal sized Hyurs in this case) meaning they're actually incredibly strong proportionately. So this puts them on equal strength with races that can be close to 4 times their size.

So to put it into perspective, it'd be like a human capable of lifting and throwing around 500lbs(226kg) rather easily. Certainly sounds pretty damn capable as a race if you ask me.

Rhio · **06-24-2013, 11:52 PM**

(06-24-2013, 11:48 PM)Shippuu Wrote: I noticed the pugilist ones, but didn't level pugilist at beyond the first quest to see their story to see if they had a more pronounced role or not. But that's good, but at the same time we lost the mining twins so that balances out maybe a bit. Don't know the other lalafell you're talking about, unless it's the mustachioed one from the very beginning? That collects the debt? If not, got a name or picture of this lalafell?

And I don't count the Sultana, as any strong leadership she might impose, she negates with her extreme perpetuation of cutesy stuff. But she isn't bad, but not really what I'd like for a prominent lalafell figure.

I cannot recall his name, exactly, but he's instrumental in several of the early quests, culminating in him showing up as the eleventh-hour cavalry charge as the head of an entire unit of Sultansworn.

I'll second that sorrow over the loss of the twins, though. They were a great pair.

Kerr · **06-24-2013, 11:56 PM**

Pick up Shippuu? Pfft. In Kerr's dreams, I allow him to have a plush Ship to snuggle at bed time. Actually IG, IC, he wouldn't dare. I think he'd seriously fear that punch to the throat. While I personally on an OCC think Ship is the most adorable badass ever (and often squee or other such silly things at pics/art), IC Kerr is going to treat him like the ass kicker he is.Â

@ OP: I think of them more as guidelines, anyway. Wink

Â play what you want. It's easy to make up a reason why they differed from the normal stereotypes presented for lalas. What's important, is that you love your character and you want to play them. If you're happy, we can work on everything else.

Eva · **06-25-2013, 01:33 AM**

I think most of the races can be mocked in-character to some degree or another, and we've seen that certain types of racism do exist in Eorzea. Â The one I most commonly hear spoken about is the Wildwood elezen at the archer's guild in Gridania badmouthing miqo'te archers.

But it's not like I've never heard the dhalmel-neck remarks. Â Thankfully it's not as awful as it was in XI - plus I don't think we have dhalmels that I've seen anyway, but I may be wrong on this.

There have been RPers who've exhibited a prejudice against some other race for whatever reason. Â And I think this is fine so long as both side realize that it's just a character thing and not really any sort of animosity (you would think this wouldn't need to be mentioned for most folks, but sometimes it doesn't hurt to add that little OOC /tell just to be on the safe side).

I think lalafells are awesome though, and wish there were more of them that I interacted with on a regular basis! Â ^_^

Also I wanna go watch the Kill Bill movies again now... Â Blush

Folken · **06-25-2013, 02:39 AM**

(06-25-2013, 01:33 AM)Eva Wrote: I think most of the races can be mocked in-character to some degree or another, and we've seen that certain types of racism do exist in Eorzea. Â The one I most commonly hear spoken about is the Wildwood elezen at the archer's guild in Gridania badmouthing miqo'te archers.

Yeah, I guess that's my problem. I accept racism in the game, I think it's great. But Lalafell get treated with the most offhanded racism (by players specifically) than any other races, for no other merit than them being a small race.

So in the game world, racism is healthily distributed to all the races (for the most part). Yet within the RP world it heavily leans against the lalafell. And many players probably don't even realize it due to it technically being meta-gamed into their RP, influence from their real world perspective.

So it sucks, it happens, and it bugs me, but there's nothin' I can do about it except handle it when it happens to me in game.

Rhostel · **06-25-2013, 03:37 AM**

I'm only OOC racist against Midlanders. So boooooring.

Uther · **06-25-2013, 10:11 AM**

I think the difference is that IC racism against most races is usually based on some type of personalityÂ stereotype that the race has. For instance, Elezen being snooty, or Miqo'te being promiscuous. If someone RP'd a racist character who disliked Dunesfolk for being thrifty and cheap, or Plainsfolk for being simpleton farmers, I'd be fine with that. It's the short and cute jokes that have really turned me off to the race itself. In addition to that, more lalafell players seem to enjoy perpetuating this stereotype than not, which is a real let-down as I think playing the little badass underdog archetype is a lot of fun.Â

Also, I did see Ship's argument for lalafell's super-human strength and I totally believe him, but lalas still at least appearÂ to be the physical underdogs.

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