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Swift · **07-18-2013, 06:22 PM**

(07-18-2013, 06:13 PM)Jonexe Wrote: "So, what happened when you finally won, and became Nuhn?"
"I ate his children. All of them."
"No seriously..."
*dead serious stare*

I lol'd xD

Strangely, this reminds me of one of the main story quests in the beta. At the part where you officially join one of the grand companies and they ask you to swear-in by declaring a statement, I had the following options to choose from when joining the Adders (phrased in the best way I can remember, anyway):

1. "[Insert typical heroic statement that I forgot here]!"
2. "Wood's Will be done!"
3. "I'll kill all of our enemies and eat their babies!"
4. "..."

I was afraid to choose option 3 when I played, but given our comparison of Miqo'te to Lions, maybe it's actually accurate and appropriate xD
I'm pretty dead-set on picking it in Phase 4 when I get around to that part, and see how the NPCs react.

Slade · **07-18-2013, 06:49 PM**

(07-18-2013, 06:13 PM)Jonexe Wrote:
(07-18-2013, 04:26 PM)Bea Wrote: And since the comparison of Miqo'te tribes being akin to lion prides has been brought up a few times by people who play them, I'm going to assume that we're going all out and any new breeding male who takes down the old one eats all of the children who aren't bread by him alone.

'S fucked up.
I have nothing of value to add to this conversation, other than I'd loveÂ to see someone RP a Nuhn (or former) with this as part of their background.

"So, what happened when you finally won, and became Nuhn?"
"I ate his children. All of them."
"No seriously..."
*dead serious stare*

Â I had actually planed on something similar to this in my BG. My friends and I had discussed the similarities between the Seekers of the Sun and a lion Pride for a while now but always had trouble bridging the genetics issue. thank you for this Science bomb, it really helps pull everything together!

Myxie Tryxle · **07-18-2013, 06:52 PM**

(07-18-2013, 06:11 PM)Swift Wrote: Prior to it, I wasn't sure if there was a realistic way to play around with genes to get a similar effect, so I wondered if perhaps Square Enix planned on giving it a "Because magic reasons!" explanation. But it seems that's not the case, thankfully. I like some mode of realism in my fiction to make it believable (just like, say, we might be able to use some sort of wide-spread occurrence of testosterone-intolerance to explain why most Miqo'te are female).

There's been plenty of things I've debated as part of these reproductive structures where I just shake my head because it's completely opposite of what I would expect and see in real world mating structures.Â "A wizard did it" is generally how I gloss over those things.Â That or the notion of "free will."Â Square Enix didn't hire a biologist to write these up, but for the most part they can be rationalized to some extent.Â It's likely I'm one of very few people considering the implications that much in depth, but I have a master's degree in genetics, so it's hard to keep the wheels from turning.

For example, given the fact that one male controls a harem of females, you would expect the males to be significantly physically larger than the females, which is only really the case with Roegadyn (and I haven't seen any indication that they have a harem-type mating structure).Â Male Seekers should be a LOT bigger than they are, if this mating structure is based on real world lions (in which male lions are 50% larger than females).Â This actually lends credence to the notion that it is a more political structure with the females pulling the strings.Â Alternatively, as a matter of female choice, you could expect the males to be a lot more showy - colorful manes, mating songs and dances, gigantic lekking displays, while the females would be rather bland and focused on camouflage.Â This is what you see with many birds, like peacocks, but not with the Seekers.Â As far as real-world biology is concerned, it's only partially thought out.

On the plus side, that actually enhances the opportunity for roleplaying.Â I can see a Tia going out of his way to establish himself as a world class singer or dancer to catch the eye of the older females in a tribe, who would in turn work to set him up as the next Nunh to breed with their daughters.Â Other female elders in the same pride could find that to be completely objectionable and support the strongest warrior in an effort to keep their grandsons from being born dandies.Â If these concerns remain equal and opposite forces, you could expect this species to continue as it is.Â More likely, Miqo'te just experienced a speciation event, which could explain how the Seekers and the Keepers split into two clans.Â Keepers supported the dandies, leading to a matriarchal society with flamboyant males.Â Seekers supported the warriors, leading to large harems and larger, more robust males.

As for gender imbalance, that is actually self-sustaining.Â In a monogamous species, the number of females and males born is generally similar (humans birth roughly 51-52% males and 48-49% females).Â In a harem society, it comes down to a matter of risk versus reward.Â Female offspring are a sure bet.Â If you have a girl, she's going to reproduce if she reaches sexual maturity, but she'll likely only produce 4-5 offspring in her lifetime.Â Male offspring are a gamble.Â Let's say 5% of males end up reproducing but can father as many as 200 offspring.Â Compared to a female, males have a lot more potential, but only if they are the very creme de la creme.Â Only top class females are encouraged to have male offspring, because their sons will have an environmental and social advantage.Â The average and below average females are better off having daughters, because any sons they have will be disadvantaged in a highly competitive race.Â A 100% chance at 5 grandchildren is better than a 1% chance at 200.Â The male-female ratio in Seekers is actually spot on as far as you would expect for a real world harem mating structure.

Desmond Aryll · **07-18-2013, 07:00 PM**

Who would have thought this would turn out to be such a thought provoking thread?

My alt kitty might just become my main. lol

Myxie Tryxle · **07-18-2013, 07:09 PM**

(07-18-2013, 07:00 PM)Desmond Aryll Wrote: Who would have thought this would turn out to be such a thought provoking thread?

My alt kitty might just become my main. lol

Honestly I wonder if the apparent popularity of Miqo'te might at least in part be influenced by their peculiar mating structure.Â Roleplayers like to explore new, interesting, and potentially controversial topics.

Slade · **07-18-2013, 07:16 PM**

(07-18-2013, 07:09 PM)Callipygian Wrote:
(07-18-2013, 07:00 PM)Desmond Aryll Wrote: Who would have thought this would turn out to be such a thought provoking thread?

My alt kitty might just become my main. lol
Honestly I wonder if the apparent popularity of Miqo'te might at least in part be influenced by their peculiar mating structure.Â Roleplayers like to explore new, interesting, and potentially controversial topics.

I think its because they look amazing with their shirts off!Â Laugh

Spiritual Machine · **07-18-2013, 07:26 PM**

Let's not forget that according to the lore, It's one breeding male to 10-50 females in a Seeker tribe on average, depending on size.

Miqo'te are all over the place in Eorzea, despite being the least populous race of the five major ones. Not to mention that the females are way more populous, and the males more rare.

It wouldn't be unreasonable to believe that there could be more nuhn than there are tia in a given tribe, and much more genetic diversity and reasoning for promoting a tia to a nuhn.

So while in order to become a nuhn, a tia has to conquer a nuhn, there could be plenty of space in a tribe for many tia to replace older nuhn, or for a tia who has proven himself to become a nuhn to a population of tribal females.

As long as we're talking about what is practical rather than what is strictly described to us in the lore, this is a practical possibility. There could also be incest involved, particularly in smaller tribes, if only because males are rare across the board. Maybe different tribes handle things differently, though it would be troublesome to make presumptions about tribal conventions.

For now it may not be a bad idea to gloss over the messier details until more of us are able to see the world and the various tribes and the way they behave. SE has stated that they intend to explore a lot of these issues through quests and events. So it's just a matter of time before we know for certain.

Desmond Aryll · **07-18-2013, 08:08 PM**

(07-18-2013, 07:26 PM)Spiritual Machine Wrote: For now it may not be a bad idea to gloss over the messier details until more of us are able to see the world and the various tribes and the way they behave. SE has stated that they intend to explore a lot of these issues through quests and events. So it's just a matter of time before we know for certain.

That's a good point. I'm sure the story quests will take us into a Miqo'te camp as well as into contact with the isolationist Duskwight Elezen etc, etc.

Can't wait!

Shuck · **07-18-2013, 10:08 PM**

(07-18-2013, 04:53 PM)Callipygian Wrote: *Truncated*

TL;DR:Â In-breeding is not as bad as everyone has been led to believe.Â In the long-term, it actually improves the genetic fitness of a population.Â Socio-economic factors in human society offset the short-term costs.

Doesn't that assume that the individuals present have the where-with-all to spot, and actively root out recessive alleles? Because I would argue that the Miqo'te have no idea how to do that, and cannot effectively map say...congenital forms of cancer.

Then, I mean...the long term effects of inbreeding have been documented to be largely influenced by societal factors (literacy, wealth, etc.), so a tribal society like the Miqo'te in a pre-industrial world like Eorzea would have a ton working against it in terms of successfully weeding out weak genes.

All they (the Miqo'te) have to do in this particular case is win a duel. Doesn't say how. You'd assume that the most fit individuals would get to breed, but as we can see that's not always the case, now is it?

The bit about Esuna eliminating contagious disease is kind of off as well. It's a videogame ability. If it were actually a cure-all beyond status effects, the world of Eorzea would have no sickness, poisonings, or even a need for the Alchemist's guild. Clearly, these factors continue to exist in the world, so we can assume that Esuna is either not readily available, and therefore is not a viable vector to totally discount an entire tribe being ravaged by the Miqo'te flu, or it is in fact not a cure-all, and is ineffective at eradicating naturally occurring diseases, being specifically for afflictions of the "magic" sort.

This thread is now about science.

Swift · **07-18-2013, 10:40 PM**

(07-18-2013, 10:08 PM)Shuck Wrote: This thread is now about science.

Uh oh o__o;

I'll go round-up the safety-glasses and lab coats; will see if I can't get a smart-board or at least a projector working, too.

Just don't make us play around with any Sulfuric Acid. I already survived (barely) that portion of my education despite the fact that we had not one, but two obnoxious class-clowns who completely disregarded safety and had no idea what they were doing .__.;

FreelanceWizard · **07-18-2013, 11:05 PM**

(07-18-2013, 10:40 PM)Swift Wrote: Just don't make us play around with any Sulfuric Acid. I already survived (barely) that portion of my education despite the fact that we had not one, but two obnoxious class-clowns who completely disregarded safety and had no idea what they were doing .__.;

Johnny was a chemist.
Johnny is no more.
For what he thought was H2O
Was really H2SO4.

Safety first, lest you support excruciatingly bad poetry.
</offtopic>

Myxie Tryxle · **07-19-2013, 12:01 AM**

(07-18-2013, 10:08 PM)Shuck Wrote: Doesn't that assume that the individuals present have the where-with-all to spot, and actively root out recessive alleles? Because I would argue that the Miqo'te have no idea how to do that, and cannot effectively map say...congenital forms of cancer.

Then, I mean...the long term effects of inbreeding have been documented to be largely influenced by societal factors (literacy, wealth, etc.), so a tribal society like the Miqo'te in a pre-industrial world like Eorzea would have a ton working against it in terms of successfully weeding out weak genes.

All they (the Miqo'te) have to do in this particular case is win a duel. Doesn't say how. You'd assume that the most fit individuals would get to breed, but as we can see that's not always the case, now is it?

The bit about Esuna eliminating contagious disease is kind of off as well. It's a videogame ability. If it were actually a cure-all beyond status effects, the world of Eorzea would have no sickness, poisonings, or even a need for the Alchemist's guild. Clearly, these factors continue to exist in the world, so we can assume that Esuna is either not readily available, and therefore is not a viable vector to totally discount an entire tribe being ravaged by the Miqo'te flu, or it is in fact not a cure-all, and is ineffective at eradicating naturally occurring diseases, being specifically for afflictions of the "magic" sort.

This thread is now about science.

I would argue this thread has already been about science.

It's actually the complete opposite of your supposition.Â None of what I've described needs to occur on a conscious level.Â The principles I've described are based on studies in a variety of organisms, including flies, mice, birds, snakes, and many other animals.Â It's a theoretical model in which we assume only natural selection is occurring.Â In many cases, these alleles are so deleterious that they lead to an abnormal development and spontaneous miscarriage.Â Artificial selection or eugenics are in no way required, in fact they're assumed not to be happening, in the underlying mathematics of the population genetics I've described.Â It gets muddier when you throw in morality and ethics, which is why it's not a perfect model for human systems, but it's a theoretical foundation to build upon.

I'm also describing just autosomal recessive disorders.Â This is things like hemophilia, cystic fibrosis, PKU, albinism, etc.Â Most cancers don't fall under this designation as they're a combination of genetic and environmental risk factors.Â Ultimately, it depends on the overall effect of the deleterious traits on fitness as well as their current prevalence within the population.Â Unfit individuals do not by definition leave no offspring.Â The fact that they leave less offspring or offspring that are less fit is what defines them as being unfit in the first place.Â Also, fitness encompasses a wide variety of traits, regardless of how they may be revered or shunned or valued by society.Â Even if a society executes a man for adultery, if he manages to sire six offspring when the average for a monogamous male is only three, he was a fit individual.

It's interesting you linked a paper by another student from the exact same class I took as an undergraduate in population genetics at WVU.Â It also doesn't prove your point as I don't see a single W value (the shorthand for fitness) anywhere in that paper indicating the value of inbreeding on the individual.Â He's discussing the historical societal viewpoints on in-breeding and a few studies on small populations experiencing founder effect in their first 5-10 generations, which I said is the period when in-breeding is decidedly negative, thus the overwhelming societal stigma against it.Â The reason this effect is so pronounced is the ethical viewpoint, not the biological.

All of my explanation is based on gene frequencies in large populations over vast amounts of time.Â What you're likely considering "long-term effects" in this model are actually short-term effects.Â I'm not talking about one or two generations, but tens to hundreds of generations over thousands of years.Â If you take a historically out-breeding population and institute inbreeding, the immediate effect over the next 10, 20, or more generations is negative, on the population average.Â Over time, however, the incidence of heterozygosity (individuals carrying only one copy of the negative allele) decreases.Â From a statistical standpoint, you're accelerating the selection against that allele and removing it from the population faster than it would in an out-breeding population.Â For a species that's been experience some level of consanguinity for a number of generations (like 50-100), those genes have already started to be weeded out, thus it's not an issue for inbreeding to continue.

As for Esuna and alchemy, Esuna doesn't negate alchemy at all.Â Not everyone can cast Esuna or has a close personal healer friend to take everywhere they go.Â Just like in the real world, you have choices.Â Depending on cost, necessity, personal preference, and availability, you may see a pharmacist, chiropractor, general practitioner, surgeon, psychologist, shaman, priest, psychic, etc. for what ails you.Â Despite all these people and all the cures we've developed, people still get sick and die.Â I'm not saying Esuna will prevent that (especially since it's likely there are magical diseases and curses floating around out there), but it will help offset some of the danger of reduced genetic diversity.

The point of this whole defense is that I'm describing the average or normal scenario within populations of a species in the real world that is uncomplicated by societal pressure, morality, and ethics.Â If the previous ethical view of the Miqo'te population as a whole has allowed in-breeding to occur, this is the likely outcome for their society as a whole after 50-100 generations.

Kitty Wizard · **07-19-2013, 12:15 AM**

Really interesting and informative! Thanks for the various perspectives - who knew a Final Fantasy race could educate me on the ins and outs of breeding! Learn something new everyday.

I have a question as well, relative to the Miqo'te Keeper families - may or may not have already been touched on, and if it has been I apologize!

I was just curious - if the Keepers have family units that are less tribe-like in dynamic, does that mean that rather than sires and mothers, there is the regular ol' mother-father parentage?Â

I was wondering about Cima's clan. Would her family be comprised of her mother-father, then her aunt's and uncle's children? They'd have several offspring each, but when it comes time to get settled down and continue the line, would the children get shipped/married off to other clans within the Shroud? Or would the family consist of a few different clan-names, and they're raised alongside their future mate and then split off to do their own thing? x.x Sorry if it seems vague - I can elaborate!

I suppose I could take it either way if I wanted, but was just hoping for some opinions/insight!

Xha'li Moui · **07-19-2013, 12:33 AM**

(07-19-2013, 12:15 AM)Kitty Wizard Wrote: Really interesting and informative! Thanks for the various perspectives - who knew a Final Fantasy race could educate me on the ins and outs of breeding! Learn something new everyday.

I have a question as well, relative to the Miqo'te Keeper families - may or may not have already been touched on, and if it has been I apologize!

I was just curious - if the Keepers have family units that are less tribe-like in dynamic, does that mean that rather than sires and mothers, there is the regular ol' mother-father parentage?Â

I was wondering about Cima's clan. Would her family be comprised of her mother-father, then her aunt's and uncle's children? They'd have several offspring each, but when it comes time to get settled down and continue the line, would the children get shipped/married off to other clans within the Shroud? Or would the family consist of a few different clan-names, and they're raised alongside their future mate and then split off to do their own thing? x.x Sorry if it seems vague - I can elaborate!

I suppose I could take it either way if I wanted, but was just hoping for some opinions/insight!

This would be helpful for me as well.Â I've left Xha'li's village population intentionally vague, and the only relationships I've explicitly defined is an aunt, as well as his two older brothers, and his mother with the father being MIA as far as both I and Xha'li know.

Myxie Tryxle · **07-19-2013, 12:36 AM**

(07-19-2013, 12:15 AM)Kitty Wizard Wrote: I was just curious - if the Keepers have family units that are less tribe-like in dynamic, does that mean that rather than sires and mothers, there is the regular ol' mother-father parentage?Â

"Though there are ten suffixes listed above, rarely do even the largest Keeper of the Moon families have more than two or three sons. This is not by choice. Nature merely sees to it that more females are born to this race."

This quote comes from the wiki on this site describing naming conventions for Moon males.Â In a case where you have significantly more of one gender than the other, monogamy is the exception rather than the rule.Â You could have a monogamous family to be sure (especially when two individuals forge a strong romantic bond), but there must be some sort of compromise in the society as a whole to deal with the lack of males.

More likely is that the "tribes" (communities) consist of several closely related families of females.Â For example, I plan to have Myxie's tribe consist of Myxie's mother and siblings, Myxie's aunt's family, Myxie's grandmother, and two families of Myxie's distant cousins.Â The only males in the group are boys.Â Once they reach majority, wanderlust kicks in (and the fact that all the immediate females are closely related and well-known to them since childhood, thus not desirable mates).

I remember reading somewhere that Moon males were particularly nomadic.Â My guess, and the way I'm playing Myxie's tribe, is that males wander around, occasionally visiting Moon communities.Â Receptive females breed with them, but don't really develop strong romantic ties, and the children are raised in a more communal manner with Aunts and Grandmothers aiding and filling in the father's role of alternate caretaker.

If they all settled down or tried to enforce some sort of monogamous system, it would be monogamous in name only.Â There'd be a LOT of adultery in the form of females unable to find mates who weren't attached and a generally high amount of drama.Â Considering the two clans likely shared a breeding system at some point in the past before they diverged, I see no reason why monogamy would have developed when there is still a major gender gap.

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