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FreelanceWizard · **03-14-2014, 11:55 AM**

From an "art of RP" standpoint, this is another example of why it's just not a good idea to play law enforcement, nobility, Hearers, or anyone who has any societal authority over other PCs in an MMO. Regardless of the situation, the fact of the matter is that such characters don't have any real authority; they can say they're arresting me all they want, but they have no ability to enforce that. That lack of enforcement power is what leads to situations like this one. Sad

It also complicates RP, because one player is asserting authority over another without their consent. In such a situation, you have only two options: accept it, or ignore it. There's no real way to RP around it unless you accept the assertion whole cloth. This causes real problems in situations like this one, where both characters are asserting what amounts to conflicting authority.

On the topic at hand, I don't really see a good way out of this. If nothing else, the two characters have conflicting authority and the two players have differing opinions on the legal rights that authority provides, so the only really viable option seems for them to just ignore each other. Sad

Ignacius · **03-14-2014, 12:34 PM**

(03-14-2014, 11:55 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: From an "art of RP" standpoint, this is another example of why it's just not a good idea to play law enforcement, nobility, Hearers, or anyone who has any societal authority over other PCs in an MMO. Regardless of the situation, the fact of the matter is that such characters don't have any real authority; they can say they're arresting me all they want, but they have no ability to enforce that. That lack of enforcement power is what leads to situations like this one. It also complicates RP, because one player is asserting authority over another without their consent. In such a situation, you have only two options: accept it, or ignore it. There's no real way to RP around it unless you accept the assertion whole cloth. This causes real problems in situations like this one, where both characters are asserting what amounts to conflicting authority.

On the topic at hand, I don't really see a good way out of this. If nothing else, the two characters have conflicting authority and the two players have differing opinions on the legal rights that authority provides, so the only really viable option seems for them to just ignore each other.

Seriously, though, the art of RP is generally supported by the structure of common sense. Â What kind of cop starts chasing and harassing another kind of cop under the same umbrella unless one of the two is dirty. Â I don't get the idea that's the case. Â Generally speaking, even if they don't get along, cops have plenty to do.

I've played both sides of the law pretty effectively at various points. Â Either we don't have all the information, or someone's playing a cop and forgetting what exactly cops do.

Magellan · **03-14-2014, 12:41 PM**

I would like to completely second Freelance's post and dive a little deeper into it. Playing any sort of powerful or authority figure is highly problematic for several reasons, one of them being a constant evolution of 'one upmanship' in which people get caught up in whose more poweeful than who, and digital pissing matches occur. The root of the problem, as I perceive it;

We are all our own GM's: In tabletop RP, the 'players' have relegated control to a GM. They understand and agree the rules, and acknowledge the GM will throw any number of things at them, and settle OOC disputes along the way. The GM is crafting a story, which you are a part of.

This is not the case in MMO rp. In MMO rp, WE are our own personal GMs, and in complete control of our story. We have not recognized or acknowledged your authority in telling our story for us. So please do not assume a GM's role without OOC consent, ever. If you want to play a lawman, you will only ever have authority over those who have given you permission to use it.

Even if you are given authority, you must use it wisely. Unless someone has specifically stated they give you full control of the story, you must bear this in mind: (I have borrowed this next bit btw, so can't take credit for it!)

In MMO, everyone wants to be a 'hero'. They want to create engaging, exciting characters that do interesting things and perform amazing feats. Even if that feat is baking the most delicious cookie ever, its still heroic in your character's eyes, and progresses them towards where you want them to go. The best way to achieve this is through Hero vs Plot.Â

In Hero vs. Plot, you get to control how your story develops, what growth your character undergoes, and when you win and when you lose. Its a great way to build your characters story, because Plot doesn't have feelings, and therefore doesn't care what you do. You can be an elusive pirate that never gets caught, a deadeye archer that can hit a ixal from 500 meters every time, or a vampire mi'qote who's 1000 years old. Plot doesn't care. Go ahead and slay 100 bad guys, oh mighty warrior! And while you're at it, invent the combustion engine that makes airship travel more affordable! While some claims will make your rp more or less accessible to others, plot has got your back every single time (Plot's nice like that Smile

)

In Hero vs. Hero, this dynamic radically changes. Because now you are no longer telling your story, but a shared story. Both sides want to be heroic. Both sides want a favorable outcome for themselves, even if its not a favorable outcome for their character. By intruding on someone's plot without their permission, you are removing their ability to control their plot, and basically stating that your plot is more important than theirs. You should never assume your authority is wanted or recognized in someone else's plot.

And unlike Plot, players have feelings. They get upset if you make your character look bad or foolish, or blatantly disregard their wishes. Its poor form to put your characters needs before others in a shared scene (I'm not saying characters can't be selfish ICly, that's a completely different thing).

Share the stage, do not upstage. Someone elses plot is every bit as important to them as yours is to you, so plan an outcome that can keep everyone happy, don't try to override their plot with your own.

Smiling River · **03-14-2014, 12:49 PM**

Who cares, blacklist and get on with your life. That simple.

Ignacius · **03-14-2014, 12:49 PM**

(03-14-2014, 12:41 PM)Magellan Wrote: I would like to completely second Freelance's post and dive a little deeper into it. Playing any sort of powerful or authority figure is highly problematic for several reasons, one of them being a constant evolution of 'one upmanship' in which people get caught up in whose more poweeful than who, and digital pissing matches occur. The root of the problem, as I perceive it;

We are all our own GM's: In tabletop RP, the 'players' have relegated control to a GM. They understand and agree the rules, and acknowledge the GM will throw any number of things at them, and settle OOC disputes along the way. The GM is crafting a story, which you are a part of.

This is not the case in MMO rp. In MMO rp, WE are our own personal GMs, and in complete control of our story. We have not recognized or acknowledged your authority in telling our story for us. So please do not assume a GM's role without OOC consent, ever. If you want to play a lawman, you will only ever have authority over those who have given you permission to use it.

Even if you are given authority, you must use it wisely. Unless someone has specifically stated they give you full control of the story, you must bear this in mind: (I have borrowed this next bit btw, so can't take credit for it!)

In MMO, everyone wants to be a 'hero'. They want to create engaging, exciting characters that do interesting things and perform amazing feats. Even if that feat is baking the most delicious cookie ever, its still heroic in your character's eyes, and progresses them towards where you want them to go. The best way to achieve this is through Hero vs Plot.Â

In Hero vs. Plot, you get to control how your story develops, what growth your character undergoes, and when you win and when you lose. Its a great way to build your characters story, because Plot doesn't have feelings, and therefore doesn't care what you do. You can be an elusive pirate that never gets caught, a deadeye archer that can hit a ixal from 500 meters every time, or a vampire mi'qote who's 1000 years old. Plot doesn't care. Go ahead and slay 100 bad guys, oh mighty warrior! And while you're at it, invent the combustion engine that makes airship travel more affordable! While some claims will make your rp more or less accessible to others, plot has got your back every single time (Plot's nice like that )

In Hero vs. Hero, this dynamic radically changes. Because now you are no longer telling your story, but a shared story. Both sides want to be heroic. Both sides want a favorable outcome for themselves, even if its not a favorable outcome for their character. By intruding on someone's plot without their permission, you are removing their ability to control their plot, and basically stating that your plot is more important than theirs. You should never assume your authority is wanted or recognized in someone else's plot.

And unlike Plot, players have feelings. They get upset if you make your character look bad or foolish, or blatantly disregard their wishes. Its poor form to put your characters needs before others in a shared scene (I'm not saying characters can't be selfish ICly, that's a completely different thing).

Share the stage, do not upstage. Someone elses plot is every bit as important to them as yours is to you, so plan an outcome that can keep everyone happy, don't try to override their plot with your own.

Or just don't be a hero and laugh as the police trip over each others' feet. Â Angel

Magellan · **03-14-2014, 12:54 PM**

I was using the term 'hero' loosely to refer to protaganist :0) some of my favorite characters haven't even been slightly 'heroic' :p

McBeefâ„¢ · **03-14-2014, 12:57 PM**

I actually dealt with a similar issue in the past, but it went a bit further (people died). I think most people have seen it, but there was some good discussion on the issue.

http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=6259

Ignacius · **03-14-2014, 01:09 PM**

(03-14-2014, 12:57 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: I actually dealt with a similar issue in the past, but it went a bit further (people died). I think most people have seen it, but there was some good discussion on the issue.

http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=6259

Honestly? Â I think the easiest solution for that particular scenario is that if you're going to play a criminal, or involve that element of crime in your story, you have GOT to play it smart. Â And people who interact with you, you can feel free to say, "I want to know WTF you're doing out here, because I didn't tell anyone where I was going and you weren't following me."

Whatever you do, make sure you know what's going on with crime in a story. Â Ignacius is a terrifying criminal; I wrote a story about how brutal he can be not long ago. Â Most people wouldn't know that, though, because he's extremely careful and smart about being a criminal. Â He doesn't handle his business at Hawker's Alley and he makes sure nobody that knows who he is has any reason to give him up. Â Just like a criminal, you have to think ahead, think smart, and be prepared to only visit major cities under assumed names and with good disguises.

On the same note, people who play law enforcement can't be omniscient or omnipresent. Â They can't be out on Coerthas if they're local law enforcement for Gridania; they've probably got work to do there. Â If they're out traveling, they're not looking for your character.

I've never had a serious problem playing a cop or crook (and I play a LOT of the latter), because I keep my ducks in a row. Â Playing a good criminal is all about knowing exactly how wide your footprint is and making sure you know how to lay low. Â Playing a good cop is a lot easier. Â You just have to know how to not godmod.

McBeefâ„¢ · **03-14-2014, 01:15 PM**

(03-14-2014, 01:09 PM)Ignacius Wrote:
(03-14-2014, 12:57 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: I actually dealt with a similar issue in the past, but it went a bit further (people died). I think most people have seen it, but there was some good discussion on the issue.

http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=6259

Honestly? Â I think the easiest solution for that particular scenario is that if you're going to play a criminal, or involve that element of crime in your story, you have GOT to play it smart. Â And people who interact with you, you can feel free to say, "I want to know WTF you're doing out here, because I didn't tell anyone where I was going and you weren't following me."

Whatever you do, make sure you know what's going on with crime in a story. Â Ignacius is a terrifying criminal; I wrote a story about how brutal he can be not long ago. Â Most people wouldn't know that, though, because he's extremely careful and smart about being a criminal. Â He doesn't handle his business at Hawker's Alley and he makes sure nobody that knows who he is has any reason to give him up. Â Just like a criminal, you have to think ahead, think smart, and be prepared to only visit major cities under assumed names and with good disguises.

On the same note, people who play law enforcement can't be omniscient or omnipresent. Â They can't be out on Coerthas if they're local law enforcement for Gridania; they've probably got work to do there. Â If they're out traveling, they're not looking for your character.

I've never had a serious problem playing a cop or crook (and I play a LOT of the latter), because I keep my ducks in a row. Â Playing a good criminal is all about knowing exactly how wide your footprint is and making sure you know how to lay low. Â Playing a good cop is a lot easier. Â You just have to know how to not godmod.

lol not again.

edit:
ok that was a bit snarky.
To elaborate the issue in both cases is that someone who plays law enforcement tries to arrest another person who plays a law enforcement officer. Essentially saying 'I'm more law than you'. This is problematic for a number of reasons, it's saying, 'I'm the arbiter of what's law and what's not'. That's what happened in the thing I posted, and that's what happened with erik.

/endderail

Ignacius · **03-14-2014, 01:33 PM**

(03-14-2014, 01:15 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(03-14-2014, 01:09 PM)Ignacius Wrote:
(03-14-2014, 12:57 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: I actually dealt with a similar issue in the past, but it went a bit further (people died). I think most people have seen it, but there was some good discussion on the issue.

http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=6259

Honestly? Â I think the easiest solution for that particular scenario is that if you're going to play a criminal, or involve that element of crime in your story, you have GOT to play it smart. Â And people who interact with you, you can feel free to say, "I want to know WTF you're doing out here, because I didn't tell anyone where I was going and you weren't following me."

Whatever you do, make sure you know what's going on with crime in a story. Â Ignacius is a terrifying criminal; I wrote a story about how brutal he can be not long ago. Â Most people wouldn't know that, though, because he's extremely careful and smart about being a criminal. Â He doesn't handle his business at Hawker's Alley and he makes sure nobody that knows who he is has any reason to give him up. Â Just like a criminal, you have to think ahead, think smart, and be prepared to only visit major cities under assumed names and with good disguises.

On the same note, people who play law enforcement can't be omniscient or omnipresent. Â They can't be out on Coerthas if they're local law enforcement for Gridania; they've probably got work to do there. Â If they're out traveling, they're not looking for your character.

I've never had a serious problem playing a cop or crook (and I play a LOT of the latter), because I keep my ducks in a row. Â Playing a good criminal is all about knowing exactly how wide your footprint is and making sure you know how to lay low. Â Playing a good cop is a lot easier. Â You just have to know how to not godmod.

lol not again.

edit:
ok that was a bit snarky.
To elaborate the issue in both cases is that someone who plays law enforcement tries to arrest another person who plays a law enforcement officer. Essentially saying 'I'm more law than you'. This is problematic for a number of reasons, it's saying, 'I'm the arbiter of what's law and what's not'. That's what happened in the thing I posted, and that's what happened with erik.

/endderail

To be fair, you're probably right that it's bad law enforcement procedure. Â If you find out someone might be dirty, you don't arrest them on the spot. Â You go to their superiors, set up surveillance, see how deep it goes. Â You make sure you're not stepping onto a sting or undercover operation. Â Or arresting and killing a potential witness or turncoat?

I mean, as a player of an active criminal, I guess I don't mind law enforcement taking more of an interest in each other than me, but it does seem like it would get stupid soon if they're not part of the same direct chain of command. Â Cops are supposed to be more buddy-buddy, uniting against the dirty criminal element, and criminals are supposed to be self-defeating and competitive.

Maybe it's because I hang out in Limsa. Â We all seem to be bordering on the criminal there....

Erik Mynhier · **03-14-2014, 01:46 PM**

(03-14-2014, 11:07 AM)ExKage Wrote: Well the thing is, Erik's not even close to being a criminal. It sounds like another person playing as a Flame/Brass Blade/Paladin/Sultansworn?? is working against another Sultansworn and Flames character Erik.

So two cops essentially. @_@ With one apparently trying to use their own authority that so far people have respected, to start going down lines that clash horribly with others' authority.

You see I, in very simple terms am a cop like character, but I designed him to be a cop to NPCs only. And only recently has a PC come to me seeking a battle of wills. That is his idea, not mine, so it works.

This arrest thing has been going on and off for months. It is also on different charges each time.

Ignacius · **03-14-2014, 01:50 PM**

(03-14-2014, 01:46 PM)Erik Mynhier Wrote:
(03-14-2014, 11:07 AM)ExKage Wrote: Well the thing is, Erik's not even close to being a criminal. It sounds like another person playing as a Flame/Brass Blade/Paladin/Sultansworn?? is working against another Sultansworn and Flames character Erik.

So two cops essentially. @_@ With one apparently trying to use their own authority that so far people have respected, to start going down lines that clash horribly with others' authority.

You see I, in very simple terms am a cop like character, but I designed him to be a cop to NPCs only. And only recently has a PC come to me seeking a battle of wills. That is his idea, not mine, so it works.

This arrest thing has been going on and off for months. It is also on different charges each time.

Is.... HEÂ the criminal!?

*cues a hammond organ stab in g minor*

Candor · **03-14-2014, 01:50 PM**

I think that perhaps people are missing the point here. Like an earlier player has already stated, it's impossible to measure this situation without knowing all the information. But taken at face value, Erik is complaining about harassment, not RP. The anonymous player in question is clearly using RP as a flimsy charade for this harassment, and that's about the extent of which RP is involved here.

Unfortunately, Erik, if you're innocent in this, your only option is likely to Blist this other player. It sounds as if you've had discussions with this player already and that they're unwilling to relent for whatever reason. There's really only one thing you can do with such people - ignore them.

Now, in response to the assertion that playing authority figures is somehow bad form. While I understand why a player would say this, I don't agree with it. I do agree, however, that authority figure characters too often are authority figures. By this I mean that Officer McCop is a veteran of the beat - he knows the ins and outs of the big bad city, he's rebelled against his commanding officer, he's collared some real scumbags. And every single time we see him, he's inexplicably on duty, in a bar, telling someone about all his Dirty Harry exploits. Doing a grand old job!

I just want to remind people that cop is an occupation, not a species. Like any other job, you have off hours, and just like in the real world, cops do their socializing during those off hours. This is for two very important reasons. 1) Cops are usually being cops when they're on duty. 2) People tend not to socialize with cops in uniform.

It's just a matter of playing a cop, not playing authority. If you play one of those characters that's always on duty (yet never in uniform,) then you've probably missed the point. Take a shift off, grab a beer and hit on the hot chick, tell her how you got that nasty scar - you're doing all of this anyway. And when the bar brawl breaks out, sit back and watch, you're off duty.

C'kayah Polaali · **03-14-2014, 02:08 PM**

(03-14-2014, 11:55 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: From an "art of RP" standpoint, this is another example of why it's just not a good idea to play law enforcement, nobility, Hearers, or anyone who has any societal authority over other PCs in an MMO. Regardless of the situation, the fact of the matter is that such characters don't have any real authority; they can say they're arresting me all they want, but they have no ability to enforce that. That lack of enforcement power is what leads to situations like this one. It also complicates RP, because one player is asserting authority over another without their consent. In such a situation, you have only two options: accept it, or ignore it. There's no real way to RP around it unless you accept the assertion whole cloth. This causes real problems in situations like this one, where both characters are asserting what amounts to conflicting authority.

On the topic at hand, I don't really see a good way out of this. If nothing else, the two characters have conflicting authority and the two players have differing opinions on the legal rights that authority provides, so the only really viable option seems for them to just ignore each other.

Ultimately, to me, it all comes down to agency. This is normally important in any RP, but it's especially important in RP that involves characters with authority over others.

I've done a lot of RP involving my character (a crook) and cops. In general, it's all been extremely rewarding RP and I've enjoyed it a great deal. The key, in my opinion, is that I've taken the time to discuss things OOCly with the other players, setting out things like personal limits for outcomes and the like. In essence, doing this turns a situation where someone is claiming authority over someone else into one where both people agree.

Ignacius · **03-14-2014, 02:09 PM**

(03-14-2014, 01:50 PM)Gyr Wrote: Now, in response to the assertion that playing authority figures is somehow bad form. While I understand why a player would say this, I don't agree with it. I do agree, however, that authority figure characters too often are authority figures. By this I mean that Officer McCop is a veteran of the beat - he knows the ins and outs of the big bad city, he's rebelled against his commanding officer, he's collared some real scumbags. And every single time we see him, he's inexplicably on duty, in a bar, telling someone about all his Dirty Harry exploits. Doing a grand old job!

And he's just a couple days from retirement.

Will you PLEASE stop trying to arrest me.

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes