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FreelanceWizard · **08-24-2014, 08:53 PM**

I generally don't have an issue with powerful characters, but then again, I spent a lot of time RPing in CoH where those were the norm ("You're a super-soldier from another dimension with a bow that shoots archers, who have bows that shoot witches? Cool. I rewrite minds with a thought for a living. Wanna get pancakes?"). The trick is to make sure that the power isn't a Solution for Everything and that you have appropriate weaknesses and flaws. After all -- and at the risk of invoking Comic Book Fan Ire Smile

-- even Superman is interesting when the stories focus on his flaws, and Marvel's made a business out of showing really powerful people laid low by sidethinking and their own problems.

With that in mind, I personally try to write any character that's powerful in one area as having significant weaknesses in other areas. If they have ways to circumvent those weaknesses, those workarounds have their own problems -- they're fragile, difficult to employ, and most importantly don't bring the character up to the skill of someone who learned it and practices it "the hard way." The more powerful a character is, the more and more severe the weaknesses I apply to them are.

Another approach that works, especially in conjunction with the "balancing weaknesses" approach, is to "turn down" the "RP power" of things your character does but isn't specialized in. Just because you have the class at 50 doesn't mean you have to RP it with that level of power. You could call yourself a "dabbler" who has some training, but not a high level (or even largely competent level) of expertise.

What informs both of these approaches is viewing character skill from a different tabletop RPG standpoint -- your "class" is just points in a skill, and you have a finite number of points. To me, it's not like D&D-style multi-classing, but instead just sticking a couple of points here and there to reflect limited expertise (a "White Wolf" approach, for those familiar with the system). You put a lot of points into your specialty, but you don't have enough points to specialize in a lot of fields.

As a side note, it may just be me, but I largely don't care about the age of characters. Final Fantasy heroes are typically quite young compared to Western fantasy heroes with rare exception. As long as there's a narrative explanation for the skill displayed and the character fits into normal FF age ranges (16+, typically) I accept it as a trope of the setting.

Erik Mynhier · **08-24-2014, 11:49 PM**

I dabble in all the crafts, am a lv50 miner, goldsmith, pld, with whm unlocked and war if i bothered to. So im pretty spread with ooc skills, but IC, Erik is a PLD, who's mother taught at Stillglade. So he is a boss at sword and board, with a very, very limited knowledge of conjury. Now he does have non-game skills. A 20 military vet gives him a tactical mind, also he was highly educated so he is book smart over all. And he's just cleaver in general. Instead of giving him all thesed game skills i opted to keep it simple with the skills, and just give him a strong mind. Knowledge is power.

Aya · **08-24-2014, 11:51 PM**

Aya's multi-classed: Dancer/Barmaid.Â I find this difficult to work into RP, but generally most people are accepting :-]

There! I contributed ^_^

Elros · **08-25-2014, 05:15 AM**

Personally I believe game mechanics SHOULD NOT affect the way you RP. In-game I play as a bard since I have always preferred the mechanics of physical range type classes BUT IC I dont roleplay Elros as any particular class instead I RP him as being knowledgeable with a bow, daggers, stealth tactics, and rudimentary magic (like kindergarten level magic).

Berrod Armstrong · **08-25-2014, 07:56 AM**

Hmm.Â

I believe that sort of thing is at a player's discretion. As long as the player remembers to keep things in moderation and avoid having their character become some all encompassing omni-classed god-man it's fine.Â

It's fine for someone to have been training to become a little of everything, a jack of all trades yet a master of none. Versatility is wonderful, and I'm pretty sure some adventurers would actively seek to diversify their own skill sets to become useful in more situations and get more work. From a player perspective, a bit of caution is always advised. While being able to fit almost every role may make for abundant roleplaying opportunities, one must remember not to be too pushy about it. It may deny others the opportunity to join in!Â

For example, Connie Conjurer and Larry the Lancer are walking down the street when suddenly, BAM! Larry suffers from sudden, story related injury ("Ouch, my feels, they hurt!"). Connie is a Conjurer, but suddenly Evan Everything shows up ("HARK, I CAN HEAL THIS MAN'S FEELS.") and tries to heal Larry, then carry him to safety because he's also a strong gladiator -- and also fend off enemies with his bare fists because he's a pugilist, too. That, in my opinion, is an unwise way to go about doing it. While Evan could have lifted and protected the pair, there was no need for him to invalidate Connie's role by also healing.

The decision of taking a toon's gameplay classes and making them IC is ultimately a player decision. Again, once it is taken with discretion! That's the only 'should' I would insert there. Always consider that as a roleplayer, one shares the stage with many others and must at times make compromises to make sure everyone enjoys their slice of the pie.

As for age? I'm always tempted to eye roll at the 16 year old master monks and 15 year old battle hardened veterans, but you know what? If a 9 year old six/seven chakra monk comes to kick Berrod's ass I'd probably roleplay with 'em instead of fussing to myself about it -- but that's just me. I have this internal 'do I gripe, or do I get some roleplay from this' scale. Afterward, I can have Berrod either go around telling an unbelievable tale (generating MORE RP ("What? You're crazy, you damn thug!")) or keeping a SHAMEFUL SECRET (character development!).

I play Berrod as a very young man who was once a very skilled monk at a reasonably young age. His level of skill was from a combination of one on one training, and the aid of a soul crystal. He can't remember most of what he learned, so he has to rediscover everything -- and that's going to take time. In the meantime, he's dabbled in several other areas, including the gladiator arena, the marauder's guild, archery and lancing. His skills in some are decent (marauder) and he just SUCKS at others (gladiator, archery, lancing). I have plans to develop him in other 'jobs', but of course, it will take time.

So in the end, play it however you like! Just have consideration for when you must interact with your fellow roleplayers. It's all about fun in the end!

ffffff...so much typing *wheeze*

Stormwind · **08-25-2014, 09:18 AM**

To me, it really matters on how the person plays the character and how their back story is set-up. I have two young characters that I play, one a monk and the other a Paladin, both are in their early to mid twenties and both are still very new at their professions (despite the monk being level 50).

Alexander on the other hand is in his mid to late 50's approaching 60. He has spent his entire life studying magic and the aether so his mastery of black magic (thaumatergy), has branched into other areas of study, namely conjuring and more recently the aetherial manipulation that arcanists use. These came fluidly, in my opinion, as he branched out, studied and gained more knowledge about magic, the aether and its uses thus why I consider him an archmage. Again, this is a lifetime of study and research he has put into these things. Now Alexander is in no way a physical fighter, he has no real martial skills to speak of, so I consider that the counter-balance.

Norna · **08-25-2014, 10:18 AM**

Sometimes one can look at the real world to get some form of idea of how much a person would be able to do (even if it is without the aid of aether and echo). Take knights for example.

By around 20-23 years old, they were knighted and had learned swordplay, jousting (lances), horseback riding, archery, courtly manners (whether they'd follow them is another matter), hawking (this was a common hobby among pages, I'm told by history books), hunting and a couple of other things.

Of course, they started as pages around age 7, but it should give some idea.

Some Shaolin monks start training at age 3 and are considered good enough by 11 to demonstrate their style for the public as an example.

Disciplines of Magic is a bit harder to find an equivalent for, but arcanists could be considered magical mathematicians, and if they immersed themselves like monks and knights in their education, it would probably take about 4-5 years to master, if not less (remember, today our education is spread all over our teachers' schedules of many students, if there was only one class to concentrate on, and every sunlit hour of every day was math hour, lots of ground would be covered much more quickly).

Thaumaturgy and Conjury seems to be about the same but opposite ends of the same education (Conjury teaches to mend and heal with external power, while Thaumaturgy teaches destructive power from within oneself), they both also seem to have some ecclesiastical purpose. I'm thinking around 5-6 years for that (again, could be less), considering that they need to learn application of their powers as well (assess injuries/corruption, control of destructive power) on top of the ecclesiastical duties.

Now, if we were to add all this up, we'd get around 30 years of education to have mastered all the classes to a point, and that only if there is no cross-class perks (conditioned body from knight, balance from monk, reasoning and logic from arcanist, elemental knowledge, tuned to aether from magic and so on. Do we even know if echo works on math? Because that could help with arcanima).

The problem isn't really a character that is trained in a lot of disciplines. It is a character that's mastered all the disciplines, have a developed social network outside the disciples, an rich adventuring history and other time consuming things that would get in the way of learning those disciplines.

And even if they're trained in all the disciplines until mastery? There is knowledge, and then there's experience. A career student of a monk will have a harder time making their punches land in the optimal area even if they know where they should punch, than a monk who have fought many enemies and know how to compensate for enemy movement in life-or-death situations.

So for me, it isn't unrealistic that a multiclass character would exist. It would only be unrealistic if they know what to do in every situation, never make a mistake and just generally be perfect before age 50 (we must allow for them to learn how to walk, talk and eat first, right? Tongue

Â And then they study, and then they experience the real world). Also, in-universe, you'd likely not be considered an expert without a lifetime's study in the relevant areas.

Of course, this is all assuming a character who was in the position of being a full time student.

As and aside: DoL and DoH would take a lot longer to learn and master than DoW and DoM, judging by the real world equivalents.

Flickering Ember · **08-25-2014, 10:29 AM**

I admittedly glazed over a lot of what was said so my response here is based heavily on previous discussions. It's less of a post directed at this thread and more of my thoughts that were helped formed by previous discussions.

I try to ignore things like power play and just think about what kinds of skills my character has. I don't consider their power level. I don't go out of my way to bring my character down to counterbalance any RPers who go a little too overboard with their character's skills. I think about how exactly they fight, what techniques do they prefer, etc. I don't truly believe that mastering more than one thing is an impossibility but I also don't believe that just because you can in game doesn't mean you should.Â

Additionally, MMO classes have a very cookie cutter way of fighting. Not all adventurers who use the same weapon are going to fight the same way. Ember for example uses her fists as weapons. But she isn't practiced in forms, carries a weapon for when her fists aren't good enough, and is willing to apply poisons. So I tend to divert my characters' abilities from their in game class quite a bit because I'd rather view my characters as people than X class.Â

Disclaimer: And by "you" I mostly actually just mean "me". >.> Pre-work post, cough, cough.

LiveVoltage · **08-25-2014, 10:40 AM**

OOC wise, I would have to say Inessa can pretty much do anything and everything, as she is the only character I work on and RP with.

ICly, she is a semi-Dragoon, with mixed skills and incomplete training as a Dragoon, but has access to most of their basic techniques, such as Jump, Elusive Jump, etc. She also dabbles in swordsmanship (Gladiator) and has a minor skill set for cooking.

I think it really depends on the type of character and what their role as a character is. For combat characters, its alot more of a challenge to not make them a battle sue, but generally, combat characters are powered up by nature. Story's center around conflict and both opponents need to be strong to attempt to trump the other.

As for craft and land disciples, wasn't Cid (Character from the main story) like a master craftsman in all the disciple's of the hand classes? If so then it is certainly possible to have a character that is purely craft based, but they most likely sacrifice any ability to fight combat wised, and they probably don't have a social life, since they most likely have given every waking moment to their craft's.

McBeefâ„¢ · **08-25-2014, 03:12 PM**

I'll echo what other people said about not letting game mechanics overly drive RP.

I think just because your character can do certain things, it doesn't mean they're multiclassing. For example, my character is shown to be no slouch with her fists, but that doesn't mean she's a pugilist or a monk. She's just pretty good at throwing a punch or a knee. Paladins can't do that in game terms, but it's pretty reasonable thing for every fighter to know.

Same thing with magick, Nat can cast the equivalent of cure I. She's not a conjurer, or a whm. All Paladins theoretically know a little healing though, so she can heal small wounds.

I'm of the opinion that no one should have multiple Jobs though. It really cheapens the idea of them if people can pick them up just like that. However, everyone can obviously RP what works for them.

LiadansWhisper · **08-25-2014, 03:34 PM**

(08-25-2014, 03:12 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: Same thing with magick, Nat can cast the equivalent of cure I. She's not a conjurer, or a whm. All Paladins theoretically know a little healing though, so she can heal small wounds.

Conjury is portrayed as possibly the easiest discipline of magic for most people to grasp. Â Most people, unless they're completely unable to feel/interact with aether, are able to pick up Conjury even if they cannot, say, grasp Thaumaturgy because of issues with their own internal aether. Â That doesn't mean they can do serious healing, but it does mean that Cure I, a weak Protect, maybe a little Stoneskin (to portray the elemental aspect of conjury) are well within reach of most characters as long as they are willing to learn.

Melkire · **08-25-2014, 03:43 PM**

Experience born of character history, I feel, should be the deciding factor in how much your characters knows and is capable of. That's been a recurring theme throughout many of the responses in this thread: "Would X character have had time to dedicate to this, and did they? Do they still practice?"

I play Osric as a thief-turned-assassin-turned-fighter. He's spent over a decade working with small arms (and by small, I mean cloak-and-dagger small), and approximately half that time training as a pugilist. He is a very recent and very fresh monk.Â Every now and then I throw a scene out into the public space so that his practicing is visible: maybe he's pummeling a dummy, or sitting around with a whetstone sharpening his blades, etc. He also has aÂ few scantÂ months' worth ofÂ experience with an axe, and it shows in how badly he handles one. It's flashy, sure, but it's atrocious in how not-practical and inefficient he is with such a weapon.

With everything else, this character falls flat on his face. Can't handle a sword beyond pick-up-and-swing. Absolute garbage with a bow: he's liable to shoot himself in the foot. The intricacies of a lance are so far beyond him that the basics are a good mile out of view. And don't get me started on magic: he doesn't understand it, he doesn't want to, it's some "unknowable" thing to him and beyond the vague similarities in aetheric manipulation between monks and thaumaturges he'll never so much as know what it feels like to handle magic.

That's just the War and Magic disciplines. ICly, he's not well-versed in any Hand or Land applications (I will eventually get fishing and culinarian leveled to reflect what meager background he has there). He's a complete mess who wouldn't be able to support himself, let alone others, were it not for the demand for able-bodied fighters that landed him with the Flames.

Even if I wanted to get more disciplines worked into his skillset IClyÂ - which I don'tÂ -Â I wouldn't be able to justify them. Practice, practice, practice: you have to practice to stay on-form. There's simply not enough time in a day for a character to maintain that level of skill for that many disciplines.

Antain · **08-25-2014, 04:26 PM**

Vaughn has been, and always will be, a bit of a rogue. This is a ten-year-old character, and it's been a lot of fun figuring out the things this character can do from his origin as an elf from Alfheim (the light elves that have glowing auras, bastard children of Baldr), to slave-turned-pirate captain, to his current incarnation of a combination of both pasts reworked to fit in with FFXIV lore.

That said, RPing multiclass jobs isn't much of a stretch. He has his talents and his weaknesses. Originally, he was a master thrower. Anything ranged, he is a (near)perfect shot. Wildwoods having superior eyesight was only a bonus. But he can use blades with proficiency, as long as he can hold it in one hand. Bastard swords and larger he doesn't touch as they are longer than his arm, which to him seems unnecessary. And while in game he is level 50 in both WHM and BLM, he technically is a very crappy mage. Because of a story point, which allowed him to be able to manipulate aether to begin with, he has all the power of a developed mage but the inability to control it. Some of the most interesting RP I've had was when his magic goes haywire ("Suddenly wind!").

He got better! Though, not much... Tongue

He also doesn't see "Jobs" as being a Bard, or White Mage, or anything like that. A job is what you do that makes you money, and class is your status in society. When in an RP and asked about his Job, he replies with "Secretary of a safe house." When he gets funny looks and asked about his class, he's a "former companion," a status that (to him) is below beggar. And, as such these points, he acts like it. While OOCly he's dabbling in every class/job, ICly he's just a jittery, mentally unstable mess of a commoner.

Roswyn · **08-25-2014, 05:56 PM**

This is addressed by designing and finalizing the character archetype you want to play before you even begin RPing.

Just because the game has been designed to have a literal buffet of things you can hit a button and change into at character select doesn't mean its even remotely within the realm of possibility for your character to have all of them. In fact, some jobs are just not accessible to PC's at all or if they are it's in a limited form.

Something I end up seeing a lot of folk doing, and I have been guilty of myself in the past, is stacking the deck as they PvE through whatever game they are playing. Things like this:

"Huh. When I knew her she wasn't an master alchemist, cook, OR Monk for that matter.."

Firstly, let's address the fact that becoming a Master of anything in this game, in my mind, is a lifetime achievement. I don't believe a character will pick-up a sword, bow, alembic etc at 13 years of age and have mastery of the craft by 20 and move on to master another art. It's difficult and limiting to retain this painfully normal set of limits but I feel it's necessary to have a well-rounded and believable character.

This being said, it's been stated lore-wise that certain crafts are just more difficult than others to pick up the basics of. It's feesable to be a layman in Arcanima
and recognize symbols and whatnot but be unable to cast all but the simplest poison spell BUT at the same time be able to weave conjury decently.

Where I tend to have issues is when people say they are multiple jobs ICly all at the ripe age of 21. Just no. You're not. I really wonder when all these things happened in the characters time frame. They had time to master all these jobs, have a child, master a profession, and still be a Second Lt. in the Order of the Twin Adder. ??? Does time just not pass at the same rate for these folk?

What is really going to sting is when new classes come out. I, myself, will need to gut my character for rogue because that is how the character was originally envisioned and archery was taken as substitute. She will be no where near as skilled with a bow as she is now.

Chika Ito · **08-25-2014, 08:32 PM**

I'm going to agree with some of the people here that just because you gain an out of character class/job doesn't mean you have to carry it over in character. I've encountered several folks who have done this.

When you obtain so many extraordinary skills, and abilities, (and can basically do every single thing that is epic and amazing!) it actually makes people feel very discouraged, and intimidated. In my time playing this game I have spoken to several people who avoid people who have a lot of powers/abilities/skills/etc because they feel like their character isn't good enough. I think it was pointed out earlier in this thread that if someone has so much power compared to someone who has so little the person with the incredible powers and skills will always be picked. In turn pushing the 'less skilled' person aside.

I don't think characters should have immense kick ass powers, because sometimes it leads to the attitude of 'You cannot hurt my character! I'll squish yours though Big Grin

Â ' I've seen it in other games. So I understand peoples hesitance to include over powered characters.Â

Chika has been training as a pugilist for about twenty-three years, and an arch for seventeen years. These classes go hand in hand within the game, and obviously you have to know how to protect yourself if you are disarmed. She's does fairly well in both, but there is always room for improvement.

Making your character have only a few, or limited, powers/skills/abilities includes room for character development.

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Multiclassing IC or: How I Avoided Becoming God

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