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Sophia_Grave · **10-23-2014, 09:26 AM**

I find that you can't really engage other players as a villain without a plot already established. Unless the interaction is integral to the villain's goals, it winds up being no different than normal. Try not to approach the RP with the intent to do wrong; instead, just be true to the character and remind yourself of what they want, then turn to morally questionable methods to get the goal. But again, if the interaction has nothing to do with those goals, there is little reason for your character to misbehave. If you really want to be an antagonist, you need a plot.

C'kayah Polaali · **10-23-2014, 10:41 AM**

There are a number of good points in this thread, and I'd only add a couple of points that largely draw from my own experience playing villains.

Villains seldom consider themselves villains. This is the biggie. The stereotypical moustache-twirling villain knows they're a villain and they get off on it. These people, as has been pointed out, don't really exist outside of stories. Come up with a motivation for your hero that allows them to feel like the good guy. Or at least righteous.

In my opinion, there are two basic types of roleplay: Top-down and bottom-up. Top-down roleplay has a storyteller that comes up with a plot, and people play within that plot. A good example is Askier with his very large and engaging plots. Bottom-up roleplay doesn't have a storyteller, and the plot springs up out of the unplanned interactions of the characters. Most tavern RP is bottom-up, but you can get some pretty interesting stories that develop in this style, too. In the real world, I'd argue that there's no such thing as a plot that lives squarely in one category or the other. They're a blend, leaning one way or the other.

I bring these categories up because they really affect how you play and portray your villain. In a heavily top-down story, the storyteller has strong control over how things progress, and they frequently want a villain who's clearly recognizable as such for the story. These villains can be much more standard moustache-twirling - not always, of course! I mentioned Askier as an example of someone who does a lot of top-down RP. For those of you who've participated in them, ask yourself if Askier is the villain in those stories.

In bottom-up RP, you rely on your ability to interact randomly with people for RP. It's hard to do this if everyone recognizes you as a villain, so this is a circumstance where you'd want to make your villain less recognizable. Less cut-and-dried. I do a lot of bottom-up RP, so I'm pretty careful to make sure that C'kayah never stands on top of a table and yells "You shall all grovel at my feet, or my name isn't Doctor Evil!" Instead, he lives much more in the grey area. In his mind, he's the hero of his story. What's more, he's very likable. This is always a good characteristic to have in a villain. If your villain is likable, then they'll draw people's sympathy in a story (which makes things more engaging for the players), as well as stirring the pot more because they'll get so many unlikely allies ("What? No! They couldn't have done that! They're so nice! And they tip well!").

Another aspect of not making your character recognizable as a villain is simply not doing anything that convinces people you're a villain. With C'kayah, I enjoy the sort of RP where he has to dodge the law and the like. Because of this, I do crime RP out in public (in out of the way places) to allow people the chance to overhear. At the same time, I try not to discuss major crimes while sitting in the Quicksand within listening range of a bunch of Sultansworn. Because I do a lot of bottom-up RP, it becomes a balancing act. You don't want to go too far towards the secrecy direction because then no one has a chance to notice anything, but you don't want to go too far towards the public-act direction because then everyone knows you're Doctor Evil. This is one of the more fun aspects of playing a villain, because it's so immediate. I'm not simply playing C'kayah. I'm also putting myself in his head as he tries to get away with crimes without getting caught, and it's never entirely in his control!

Playing a villain is a lot of fun, and I hope you enjoy it.

Askier · **10-23-2014, 11:35 AM**

Tiergan wants to be a villain?Â YAY~!Â *Dances with excitement*

Well Tiergan, most of these people here have already offered stellar advice and covered most of the points I could have gone over so I'll offer personal experience instead to give you a glimpse into the hive of scum and villainy you are about to tread.

C'kayah brought up a very good point about bottom-up and top-down.Â No matter what stye you pick, having a pre-set plot for your villain, even if it's just a goal, is vital or else the character can get lost.Â Whether its form a criminal empire or blow up a city,Â you need a goal to aim for so that people can try to counter the goal, thus creating the wonderful conflict I thrive on.Â

Now one thing to be aware of, is that being a baddy does tend to limit the types of rp open to you at times depending on your character.Â Askier, during his bomb plot, was found out and open about it.Â For about a month, his rp consisted of evading cops, trying to recruit people, and complaining to anyone who knew his goal about how much work it all was.Â Now this was great for conflict, and Kahn'a and I had the awesome game of cat-and-mouse going on in Ul'dah but I couldn't tavern rp anymore, not that I do much of that anyhow.

If you want your character to have a social life outside their goals, take C'kayah's route.Â Sure C'kayah has Osric glaring at him, but he can't prove anything and C'kayah can enjoy himself in the Quicksand.Â But the rub of this is that if -no one- knows what you are planning, they can't try and stop you.Â And once someone does know, word spreads, and eventually, your character ends up in Askier's shoes for awhile.

This was how I played Jin'li.Â He was a slow burn.Â He walked around Ul'dah, chatting and being-kind- as he did his deeds.Â Word of him slowly spread as more and more people learned about his actions.Â Eventually my available rp options ended up like Askier's.Â Fun but limited.

Also, the biggest issue is, expect to be thwarted and eventually have to pay for your crimes.Â This happens.Â Sooner or later everyone loses.Â Osric lost to Jin'li, just as Jin'li lost and died to Osric later.Â People are out to stop you and even if you are stopped, and are given a trial, and fake your own death, and then become a Flame, like Askier, there is a stigma your character will forever bear.Â It's a strange sensation, but it will happen.Â Even to this day Askier is discriminated against in character for his actions byt other PC's and that is an organic development but can be tough if you aren't ready for it because you'll love to grow your 'villain' and seeing this not work out for them social can be disheartening.

That's just a bit of insight.Â Hope it helps you with your character development.Â Big Grin

Aslo if you need a bomb maker...Askier currently available for hire.Â Rolleyes

Also "Good" and "Evil" are subjective and never once did I think of Askier or Jin'li as villains, but, rather, tragic heroes.Â One of the best 'villians' I ever rped was a paladin trying to stop a group of cultists.Â If you consider yourself an 'antagonist' versus a 'villain' you get to have more fun, least I think so. Big Grin

Warren Castille · **10-23-2014, 11:45 AM**

(10-23-2014, 11:35 AM)Askier Wrote: Also, the biggest issue is, expect to be thwarted and eventually have to pay for your crimes.Â This happens.Â Sooner or later everyone loses.Â Osric lost to Jin'li, just as Jin'li lost and died to Osric later.Â People are out to stop you and even if you are stopped, and are given a trial, and fake your own death, and then become a Flame, like Askier, there is a stigma your character will forever bear.Â It's a strange sensation, but it will happen.Â Even to this day Askier is discriminated against in character for his actions byt other PC's and that is an organic development but can be tough if you aren't ready for it because you'll love to grow your 'villain' and seeing this not work out for them social can be disheartening.

Everyone ever signing on to play a villain-type should be forced to read this and sign a document stating they've read it.

Aya · **10-23-2014, 11:56 AM**

(10-23-2014, 08:19 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: Not only is it offensive to the folks playing lawmen and women

Its also annoying to people playing the every-day sorts who such villains tend to prey upon, who are essentially unable to have protection from them.

I would think villains would be able to gather at any major area outside of the city-state capitals.Â It may require a little stretch to imagine that a heinous and wanted outlaw could sit down for a drink at Drybone, but it seems vastly more appropriate than Ul'dah itself Smile

Wouldn't Mor Dhana be an area that such types could gather without much fear of being apprehended? Just blending in with the adventurers?

Gaspard · **10-23-2014, 12:39 PM**

I think a good idea would be to create an area actually controlled and nurtured by villa villainous types. For ine, anything outsode of the major cities should be fine. Think goblet and the outskirts of ul'dah (coffer and coffin etc), then theres always an option to go tortuga. As in pirates of the carribean tortuga. Something in asimilar veign should work splendidly.

Gaspard · **10-23-2014, 12:40 PM**

also, all typos where provided to you by nokia lumia. Connecting people like vodka does.

i hate this phone.

Verranicus · **10-23-2014, 12:55 PM**

(10-23-2014, 11:56 AM)Aya Wrote:
(10-23-2014, 08:19 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: Not only is it offensive to the folks playing lawmen and women
Its also annoying to people playing the every-day sorts who such villains tend to prey upon, who are essentially unable to have protection from them.

I would think villains would be able to gather at any major area outside of the city-state capitals.Â It may require a little stretch to imagine that a heinous and wanted outlaw could sit down for a drink at Drybone, but it seems vastly more appropriate than Ul'dah itself

Wouldn't Mor Dhana be an area that such types could gather without much fear of being apprehended? Just blending in with the adventurers?

The best villain is the one you don't know exists. =P So I don't see a reaosn why the nefariously-inclined shouldn't be allowed to hang out at the hotspots as long as they're not cackling and twirling their mustaches in public.

Warren Castille · **10-23-2014, 01:00 PM**

(10-23-2014, 12:55 PM)Verranicus Wrote:
(10-23-2014, 11:56 AM)Aya Wrote:
(10-23-2014, 08:19 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: Not only is it offensive to the folks playing lawmen and women
Its also annoying to people playing the every-day sorts who such villains tend to prey upon, who are essentially unable to have protection from them.

I would think villains would be able to gather at any major area outside of the city-state capitals.Â It may require a little stretch to imagine that a heinous and wanted outlaw could sit down for a drink at Drybone, but it seems vastly more appropriate than Ul'dah itself

Wouldn't Mor Dhana be an area that such types could gather without much fear of being apprehended? Just blending in with the adventurers?
The best villain is the one you don't know exists. =P So I don't see a reaosn why the nefariously-inclined shouldn't be allowed to hang out at the hotspots as long as they're not cackling and twirling their mustaches in public.

Agreed, actually. I just ask that once someone's a known villain they drop walking around like they're untouchable in public spaces.

Aya · **10-23-2014, 01:10 PM**

(10-23-2014, 12:55 PM)Verranicus Wrote:
(10-23-2014, 11:56 AM)Aya Wrote:
(10-23-2014, 08:19 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: Not only is it offensive to the folks playing lawmen and women
Its also annoying to people playing the every-day sorts who such villains tend to prey upon, who are essentially unable to have protection from them.

I would think villains would be able to gather at any major area outside of the city-state capitals.Â It may require a little stretch to imagine that a heinous and wanted outlaw could sit down for a drink at Drybone, but it seems vastly more appropriate than Ul'dah itself

Wouldn't Mor Dhana be an area that such types could gather without much fear of being apprehended? Just blending in with the adventurers?
The best villain is the one you don't know exists. =P So I don't see a reaosn why the nefariously-inclined shouldn't be allowed to hang out at the hotspots as long as they're not cackling and twirling their mustaches in public.

Yeah, Â I don't think anyone disagrees with that. It's just obnoxious ones that are publicly villainous and then act like nothing can happen to them when they sit down for a drink at the quick sand. Â Fortunately it's not that common but I have ignored someone doing so before :-X

Aldotsk · **10-23-2014, 01:15 PM**

Depending on what kind of villain one is, if the person is a villain of Ul'dah and did some kind of crimes for people to notice, Brass Blades will just send out the wanted posters all over Thanalan. Not just Ul'dah. So drinking at Drybones would definitely not make any sense since that place is overrun by Brass Blades and Immortal Flames because they have to deal with Amaljaa everytime from the south.

With that said, that goes for Shrouds/La Noscea too. If you did something bad in any of the regions, your face will come up on those local walls and trees.

But those kind of villains have to be either you murder someone or blow up Ul'dah for you to actually unable to go to any type of regions.

Or shoot an officer, because that's one way for you to gain three stars and then four then five... then six.

Warren Castille · **10-23-2014, 01:22 PM**

(10-23-2014, 01:15 PM)Aldotsk Wrote: Depending on what kind of villain one is, if the person is a villain of Ul'dah and did some kind of crimes for people to notice, Brass Blades will just send out the wanted posters all over Thanalan. Not just Ul'dah. So drinking at Drybones would definitely not make any sense since that place is overrun by Brass Blades and Immortal Flames because they have to deal with Amaljaa everytime from the south.

With that said, that goes for Shrouds/La Noscea too. If you did something bad in any of the regions, your face will come up on those local walls and trees.

But those kind of villains have to be either you murder someone or blow up Ul'dah for you to actually unable to go to any type of regions.

Or have someone kill themselves on your bullet, because that's one way for you to gain three stars and then four then five... then six.

Debatable. I think there are guards at the Coffer and Coffin, but are they Blades? I thought they were just bar bouncers. I don't spend enough time there to be sure.

I wish the game had more general watering holes. We could use some unaffiliated locales. Mor Dhona's nice, but it's so crowded with everyone else that you open up the odds of people trouncing on your roleplay because they're bored.

Aldotsk · **10-23-2014, 01:27 PM**

(10-23-2014, 01:22 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(10-23-2014, 01:15 PM)Aldotsk Wrote: Depending on what kind of villain one is, if the person is a villain of Ul'dah and did some kind of crimes for people to notice, Brass Blades will just send out the wanted posters all over Thanalan. Not just Ul'dah. So drinking at Drybones would definitely not make any sense since that place is overrun by Brass Blades and Immortal Flames because they have to deal with Amaljaa everytime from the south.

With that said, that goes for Shrouds/La Noscea too. If you did something bad in any of the regions, your face will come up on those local walls and trees.

But those kind of villains have to be either you murder someone or blow up Ul'dah for you to actually unable to go to any type of regions.

Or have someone kill themselves on your bullet, because that's one way for you to gain three stars and then four then five... then six.

Debatable. I think there are guards at the Coffer and Coffin, but are they Blades? I thought they were just bar bouncers. I don't spend enough time there to be sure.

I wish the game had more general watering holes. We could use some unaffiliated locales. Mor Dhona's nice, but it's so crowded with everyone else that you open up the odds of people trouncing on your roleplay because they're bored.

They actually got benches outside of Revenant's Toll now, and it's 80% quiet. (right outside near Coerthas borders)

Also they are Blades since they do wear helmets and uniforms of Brass Blade (all in C&C). But they were probably the most laziest Brass Blades ever. Too bad they are NPCs. We dont really have a lot of Brass Blades in game as characters to take care of villains.

The others were just really unfortunate that they ran into ones.

Telluride · **10-23-2014, 01:32 PM**

What about the Silver Bazaar for a place?

If I remember correctly, the story behind it is that it is made up of a group of citizens who are simply fighting to be able to keep their homes and rebuild the place to restore some of its early fame.

Now, imagine a small group of "investors", who actually are polite to a fault and very courteous to the locals, steps in. These newcomers put some gil into restoring the bazaar, and the land-grabbers that plagued the town suddenly don't seem keen to come around anymore. The local populace would be indebted to their saviors, and would perhaps not look too closely where the money was coming from, since they would be seeing stars in their eyes at the promise of the place regaining its prosperity. After all, adventurers can't come around all the time.

The place is out of the way, has some buildings for RP purposes, and offers a rather historical and benevolent cover story for any group of mountebanks and more sophisticated villains. After all, a really good organized crime syndicate, if it is run intelligently, will benefit more from being supportive and nice to the locals so that the authorities become the -real- villains in the eyes of the townies.

Tiergan · **10-23-2014, 02:24 PM**

I'm okay with things eventually building to the point where my character can't freely walk about certain places anymore due to reputation or he'll get shanked/arrested. I'm also okay with the villain being punished for his crimes. I've always felt like the best villains were ones that had cycles of slow rises to power, followed by a a terrible fall where they have to pick up the pieces and start again. I guess my biggest problem wasn't how to design a villain, but how to engage with other players as an antagonist.

I don't intend on eviscerating someone in the middle of Gridania only to turn around and have a drink in the Canopy. I wanted my character to be much more discreet and ambiguous. However, if he spends all of his time keeping his ass covered and outwardly being 'good', how do I ever find the chance to let him be antagonistic towards anyone? ;A;

It sounds like Sophia's right, I'd have to actually create a plot to develop a scenario where he'd be an antagonist.

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So I want to RP a Villain...

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