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Khadan · **04-17-2015, 05:28 PM**

(04-17-2015, 05:18 PM)Kage Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 05:13 PM)Edda Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 05:12 PM)Kayllen Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 05:07 PM)Edda Wrote: If there's gay sex in Ishgard, there's definitely racism.

Calling it now that there will be some side-quests in the city that involve some disenfranchised 1st/2nd generation lalafell/miqo'te being shit on by some holier-than-thou Elezen knights. Feel free to screencap this post for when it happens so you can be like "Wow Edda was right."

We just finished with this discussion, I think, wherein it was established that correlation != causation.Â

So may I screencap and post this for when it doesn't happen?
Yes, and so will I. I will be sure to necro this thread and PM you when it happens, because it will. If not in 3.0, then 3.1, and so on and so forth. If it doesn't happen by 4.0 I'll give you like a million gil or something.
I've quoted two separate occasions from the official forums where Fern said that there is a quest in 3.0 dealing with a cross-race offspring/couple/something ( and the differences they experiences implied or so)

Which you've deliberately seemed to fail to grasp is not relevant to the discussion.

Khadan · **04-17-2015, 05:29 PM**

(04-17-2015, 05:23 PM)Edda Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 05:18 PM)Kage Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 05:13 PM)Edda Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 05:12 PM)Kayllen Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 05:07 PM)Edda Wrote: If there's gay sex in Ishgard, there's definitely racism.

Calling it now that there will be some side-quests in the city that involve some disenfranchised 1st/2nd generation lalafell/miqo'te being shit on by some holier-than-thou Elezen knights. Feel free to screencap this post for when it happens so you can be like "Wow Edda was right."

We just finished with this discussion, I think, wherein it was established that correlation != causation.Â

So may I screencap and post this for when it doesn't happen?
Yes, and so will I. I will be sure to necro this thread and PM you when it happens, because it will. If not in 3.0, then 3.1, and so on and so forth. If it doesn't happen by 4.0 I'll give you like a million gil or something.
I've quoted two separate occasions from the official forums where Fern said that there is a quest in 3.0 dealing with a cross-race offspring/couple/something ( and the differences they experiences implied or so)
Then I guess it's a good thing for Kayllen I'm not demanding any gil for this bet.

It's a good thing for you I wouldn't take that bet, anyway. I can make my own money just like I can make my own arguments.

Khadan · **04-17-2015, 05:31 PM**

(04-17-2015, 05:25 PM)Wymsical Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 05:12 PM)Kayllen Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 05:07 PM)Edda Wrote: If there's gay sex in Ishgard, there's definitely racism.

Calling it now that there will be some side-quests in the city that involve some disenfranchised 1st/2nd generation lalafell/miqo'te being shit on by some holier-than-thou Elezen knights. Feel free to screencap this post for when it happens so you can be like "Wow Edda was right."

We just finished with this discussion, I think, wherein it was established that correlation != causation.Â

So may I screencap and post this for when it doesn't happen?
I'm curious, why are you so determined that Ishgard doesn't have any forms of racism present? Gridania is well-established as hella racist but people play as natives there all the time. Hailing from a place with significant interracial tensions doesn't have to reflect poorly on your own character. Given Ishgard's very prominent xenophobia, hating anyone who isn't native seems very likely, or at least with extreme suspicion and prejudice. Is a more cultural form of -ism really that different?

/sigh.

Go reread the posts. No where have I stated that there is no racism.

Kage · **04-17-2015, 05:31 PM**

How is it not relevant? Edit: In 3.0. Re: HEAVENSWARD. Re: A Floating Continent or RE: ISHGARD

They are treated differently because of their cultural differences stemming from the socially ingrained DO NOT LIKE EACH OTHER beliefs held between the races. It's been made a point in two separate but not wholly unrelated occasions by Fern that this. is. a. thing.

It's not something that is treated carelessly.

Khadan · **04-17-2015, 05:32 PM**

(04-17-2015, 05:12 PM)Iex Wrote: Honestly, I never really have seen much /racism/ in Ishgard. (Though that could be because of racism meaning perspective.) I am not denying there may be some... I don't know every quest or NPC chatter.

They are Xenophobic in terms of they don't want outsiders to be to involved in their matters. Lots of pride of not wanting matters to be interfered. Having to rely on outsiders to solve their problems is a sign of weakness that would make other houses lose respect.

Most of the MSQs in the North, Pre 2.4ish, involve you actually being purely an errand boy except for literally annoying the leaders with things until they reluctantly agreed to listen to you. If they truly saw you as a lesser being, they would have kicked you out entirely. The matter of <Redacted> which caused folks to trust you seemed to be because folks were too prideful to admit to things. The Ishgardians never seem to consider folks 'lesser' people, just that outsiders should stick to their outside and leave Ishgardian matters to the natives.

They dislike folks trampling over their world of tradition and such in the name of "we know better than you." Which is why there was so much conflict about Garuda and the post 2.0 MSQ. They only asked for aid for Steps of Faith and such because the danger of massacre out weighed the cost of loss of pride.Â The fact the Ishgardians were extremely grateful for the aid (so far as to GO TO ANOTHER NATION FOR THE CELEBRATION)Â shows they never thought of adventurers and other nations as lesser just... over Zealous in their ideas of 'good for everyone.'

A lot of racism exists between the Elezen and the Moonkeepers, where the Elezen genuinely don't see the Moonkeepers as a civilized race. (Archer storyline and Lancer Storyline)

We, also, have to remember Racism in FFXIV is different than in real life. There are actual differences in the races and traits that define their ability. You don't get call racism for giving the heavy box to a RoegadynÂ rather than Lalafell. It is a fact of life.

((If anything a lot of folks are racist (or nationalist) against Ishgard because they are a bit colder than everyone else (/pun) ))

A+ here. Also your pun game is frosty. cwidt?

Khadan · **04-17-2015, 05:33 PM**

(04-17-2015, 05:31 PM)Kage Wrote: How is it not relevant?

They are treated differently because of their cultural differences stemming from the socially ingrained DO NOT LIKE EACH OTHER beliefs held between the races. It's been made a point in two separate but not wholly unrelated occasions by Fern that this. is. a. thing.

It's not something that is treated carelessly.

This is literally the last time I will say this to you: Please provide evidence that what you are saying pertains to Ishgard directly being a racist state. If you cannot do this then please stop persisting in repeating it.

Tiergan · **04-17-2015, 05:34 PM**

(04-17-2015, 05:14 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 03:12 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 02:56 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: For the sake of making this not drag on for thirty pages, let's just all agree to autocorrect "racism" to "discrimination."

Hey, past!me. It's current/future!me. We tried, man. We tried.

GUYS. IT'S ME FROM THE FAR FUTURE. JUST GIVE IT UP, ALL IS LOST. IN THE FUTURE NOBODY CAN READ.

Man, I feel like we should have just... gone with the idea that all of Eorzea is really prejudiced against each other for one reason or another or something. <_<:a

On a slightly random note - I love that Eorzea's a pretty prejudiced lot. As horrible as it is in the real world when it happens, it can make for fascinating conflicts and stories in a fantasy setting. I rolled up a Duskwight alt BECAUSE i was fascinated by how much horrible shit they go through in Gridania (which is super well documented and I can point to folks who could write books on how poorly they get treated.) The key to any great story is conflict - and I liked exploring that conflict with the Duskwight.

Tiergan and Lurial both have had to struggle with discrimination as well (ignoring the whole Ala Mhigan bit just so we don't go down that rabbit hole again) - because Lurial started off a penniless street child in a city where Coin = Status and Tiergan was pretty much the same but in a very different manner.

Furious Storm was a Hellsguard Roegadyn in Limsa Lominsa with no sealegs for a bit, so I'm sure you can only imagine how well that went for him until he traveled to Ul'dah where Hellsguard were a lot more common place.

This stuff makes for some really interesting stories. I'm not sure if the resistance to the idea that Ishgard might be racist comes at the heels of fear that somehow the city is less 'cool' if it's racist. I actually think that makes it twice as interesting because if they ARE super racist and xenophobic - that means Heavensward is going to be rife with plenty of juicy conflict for our characters to run into in the MSQ and for us as roleplayers to play with as storytellers.

YMMV, I suppose - but I think it's awesome that there's so much simmering strife beneath the surface for racial, social, and religious reasons for us to write tales about.

Wymsical · **04-17-2015, 05:36 PM**

(04-17-2015, 05:31 PM)Kayllen Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 05:25 PM)Wymsical Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 05:12 PM)Kayllen Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 05:07 PM)Edda Wrote: If there's gay sex in Ishgard, there's definitely racism.

Calling it now that there will be some side-quests in the city that involve some disenfranchised 1st/2nd generation lalafell/miqo'te being shit on by some holier-than-thou Elezen knights. Feel free to screencap this post for when it happens so you can be like "Wow Edda was right."

We just finished with this discussion, I think, wherein it was established that correlation != causation.Â

So may I screencap and post this for when it doesn't happen?
I'm curious, why are you so determined that Ishgard doesn't have any forms of racism present? Gridania is well-established as hella racist but people play as natives there all the time. Hailing from a place with significant interracial tensions doesn't have to reflect poorly on your own character. Given Ishgard's very prominent xenophobia, hating anyone who isn't native seems very likely, or at least with extreme suspicion and prejudice. Is a more cultural form of -ism really that different?

/sigh.

Go reread the posts. No where have I stated that there is no racism.

Apparently my implication of 'largely racist' didn't get through. Now that I've clarified, mind actually answering?

Khadan · **04-17-2015, 05:37 PM**

(04-17-2015, 05:26 PM)Aya Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 04:56 PM)Kayllen Wrote: My involvement in this part of the conversation stems from the notion that certain ideas can be uttered as fact without any real evidence or proof and others just sort of hit the ground running with it which, ironically, would then cause a sort of bandwagon mentality wherin someone who comes in and doesn't observe what has been asserted to be fact doesn't acknowledge it and is then questioned, derided, or even belittled for not being on said bandwagon. That's where I have umbrage.
Fact?Â Fact?.Â No, we were discussing an interesting matter of conjecture when you decided to insert yourself as the judge of what is fact where it did not belong, and to do so with considerable condescension (I did catch your reply to me before you edited it).

While happily ensconced in your highchair lobbing "That's just conjecture", "Where are the facts?"Â "Whats the proof?" you've missed the entire point, and utterly obscured what should have been interesting in this entire conversation.Â Nothing at this stage is provable (except perhaps by those with inside knowledge of Heavenward development) because no evidence is yet available.Â Your "point", as it were, is nothing but meaningless tautology combined with high-handed rhetoric and a poisonous way of delivering it.

Calm down. Also apologies for the reply. I edited because it did come off as condescending which wasn't my intent.Â

You're incorrect, still, though. You have consistently claimed directly "There is systematic racism in Ishgard". Please deny this.

My point has been to stand between you and making fallacious assertions. You're engaging in projection at this point and I'm unsure why; because I disagreed with you, perhaps?

I don't appreciate your use of the word 'poisonous' here. It's almost as ridiculous as tumbr's utterance of the word 'toxic' when someone disagrees with the many false assertions there, too. If disagreeing with you in a logical and provable manner is all it takes for you to whip out insults then I think we're done talking in this thread. Hopefully this ire will pass, though.

Val · **04-17-2015, 05:38 PM**

(04-17-2015, 05:34 PM)Tiergan Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 05:14 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 03:12 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 02:56 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: For the sake of making this not drag on for thirty pages, let's just all agree to autocorrect "racism" to "discrimination."

Hey, past!me. It's current/future!me. We tried, man. We tried.

GUYS. IT'S ME FROM THE FAR FUTURE. JUST GIVE IT UP, ALL IS LOST. IN THE FUTURE NOBODY CAN READ.

Man, I feel like we should have just... gone with the idea that all of Eorzea is really prejudiced against each other for one reason or another or something. <_<:a

On a slightly random note - I love that Eorzea's a pretty prejudiced lot. Â As horrible as it is in the real world when it happens, it can make for fascinating conflicts and stories in a fantasy setting. Â I rolled up a Duskwight alt BECAUSE i was fascinated by how much horrible shit they go through in Gridania (which is super well documented and I can point to folks who could write books on how poorly they get treated.) Â The key to any great story is conflict - and I liked exploring that conflict with the Duskwight.

Tiergan and Lurial both have had to struggle with discrimination as well (ignoring the whole Ala Mhigan bit just so we don't go down that rabbit hole again) - because Lurial started off a penniless street child in a city where Coin = Status and Tiergan was pretty much the same but in a very different manner. Â

Furious Storm was a Hellsguard Roegadyn in Limsa Lominsa with no sealegs for a bit, so I'm sure you can only imagine how well that went for him until he traveled to Ul'dah where Hellsguard were a lot more common place.

This stuff makes for some really interesting stories. Â I'm not sure if the resistance to the idea that Ishgard might be racist comes at the heels of fear that somehow the city is less 'cool' if it's racist. Â I actually think that makes it twice as interesting because if they ARE super racist and xenophobic - that means Heavensward is going to be rife with plenty of juicy conflict for our characters to run into in the MSQ and for us as roleplayers to play with as storytellers.

YMMV, I suppose - but I think it's awesome that there's so much simmering strife beneath the surface for racial, social, and religious reasons.

Tbh I agree with this. I love the idea that there's racism and prejudice. It allows for interesting stories, interesting characters, and the possibility for a great deal of development.

Khadan · **04-17-2015, 05:38 PM**

(04-17-2015, 05:34 PM)Tiergan Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 05:14 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 03:12 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 02:56 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: For the sake of making this not drag on for thirty pages, let's just all agree to autocorrect "racism" to "discrimination."

Hey, past!me. It's current/future!me. We tried, man. We tried.

GUYS. IT'S ME FROM THE FAR FUTURE. JUST GIVE IT UP, ALL IS LOST. IN THE FUTURE NOBODY CAN READ.

Man, I feel like we should have just... gone with the idea that all of Eorzea is really prejudiced against each other for one reason or another or something. <_<:a

On a slightly random note - I love that Eorzea's a pretty prejudiced lot. Â As horrible as it is in the real world when it happens, it can make for fascinating conflicts and stories in a fantasy setting. Â I rolled up a Duskwight alt BECAUSE i was fascinated by how much horrible shit they go through in Gridania (which is super well documented and I can point to folks who could write books on how poorly they get treated.) Â The key to any great story is conflict - and I liked exploring that conflict with the Duskwight.

Tiergan and Lurial both have had to struggle with discrimination as well (ignoring the whole Ala Mhigan bit just so we don't go down that rabbit hole again) - because Lurial started off a penniless street child in a city where Coin = Status and Tiergan was pretty much the same but in a very different manner. Â

Furious Storm was a Hellsguard Roegadyn in Limsa Lominsa with no sealegs for a bit, so I'm sure you can only imagine how well that went for him until he traveled to Ul'dah where Hellsguard were a lot more common place.

This stuff makes for some really interesting stories. Â I'm not sure if the resistance to the idea that Ishgard might be racist comes at the heels of fear that somehow the city is less 'cool' if it's racist. Â I actually think that makes it twice as interesting because if they ARE super racist and xenophobic - that means Heavensward is going to be rife with plenty of juicy conflict for our characters to run into in the MSQ and for us as roleplayers to play with as storytellers.

YMMV, I suppose - but I think it's awesome that there's so much simmering strife beneath the surface for racial, social, and religious reasons for us to write tales about.

I agree. =)

Kage · **04-17-2015, 05:39 PM**

How do you not call treating half-races differently racist?

Because you know what that is? I call that shit racisim. Call that politically correct however you might, but treating "half-races" differently is racist.

Edit: This is the one and only time I directly call out Ishgard on being racist. Provide me some other point where I say that Ishgard itself is racist.

Gegenji · **04-17-2015, 05:39 PM**

(04-17-2015, 05:27 PM)Kayllen Wrote: I'm stating that categorically none of you have proven the existence of systemic cultural racism (or discrimination, for Warren) and until that changes no one has any real reason to just listen and believe when you say that it is so and that that is the canon truth, asserted or stated.

And why, exactly do we need to categorically prove conjecture that is being made purely as an interesting "maybe" that someone wants to play off of for their own personal RP?

Khadan · **04-17-2015, 05:39 PM**

(04-17-2015, 05:36 PM)Wymsical Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 05:31 PM)Kayllen Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 05:25 PM)Wymsical Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 05:12 PM)Kayllen Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 05:07 PM)Edda Wrote: If there's gay sex in Ishgard, there's definitely racism.

Calling it now that there will be some side-quests in the city that involve some disenfranchised 1st/2nd generation lalafell/miqo'te being shit on by some holier-than-thou Elezen knights. Feel free to screencap this post for when it happens so you can be like "Wow Edda was right."

We just finished with this discussion, I think, wherein it was established that correlation != causation.Â

So may I screencap and post this for when it doesn't happen?
I'm curious, why are you so determined that Ishgard doesn't have any forms of racism present? Gridania is well-established as hella racist but people play as natives there all the time. Hailing from a place with significant interracial tensions doesn't have to reflect poorly on your own character. Given Ishgard's very prominent xenophobia, hating anyone who isn't native seems very likely, or at least with extreme suspicion and prejudice. Is a more cultural form of -ism really that different?

/sigh.

Go reread the posts. No where have I stated that there is no racism.
Apparently my implication of 'largely racist' didn't get through. Now that I've clarified, mind actually answering?

I have answered, you still haven't read anything I've written before this, though.

Quote:I'm curious, why are you so determined that Ishgard doesn't have any forms of racism present?

I'm not. Again.

Khadan · **04-17-2015, 05:40 PM**

(04-17-2015, 05:39 PM)Kage Wrote: How do you not call treating half-races differently racist?

Because you know what that is? I call that shit racisim. Call that politically correct however you might, but treating "half-races" differently is racist.

It's a good thing I don't disagree with you. You're still not making any reasonable points in relation to the actual conversation, though.

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Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes