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Verad · **03-04-2015, 03:43 PM**

(03-04-2015, 03:37 PM)Kismet Wrote: When most RPers talk about blending, we're talking about negativity that is bred from doing so. We're talking about something that goes beyond escapism sometimes. People who either can't or have great difficultly separating fantasy from reality. To be fully immersed or invested is one thing. To use roleplay as a means to nurse some fragile obsessive need a person may have to be praised, desired, or vindicated... That's something else.

And in that regard, what "most RPers" discuss is a problem, because it erases the existence of that one thing and only discusses the existence of the something else, leading to threads where we have to articulate the existence of the one thing again. Similar concerns appear with "metagaming," where it can refer to a broad swathe of activities (pre-planning storylines, the employment of dramatic irony, making characters and storylines based on an OOC awareness of what people tend to play, etc.) but is only used as a pejorative, referring to one specific type of those activities (using OOC knowledge IC without consent).

Even the above regarding a "fragile, obsessive need" isn't necessarily problematic on its face - only when it leads to problems for other players, OOC and IC. It seems some posters deem that to be a foregone conclusion; I'm skeptical of that idea.

Virella · **03-04-2015, 03:51 PM**

I'm very grateful that it isn't shown off as something terrible when people do such.

Coming from a background with lots of family within the army, I've heard quite the different story in regards of it being a bad trait of immersing yourself with a character. Now you probably wonder why.

At big events where they act out natural disasters, terrorist attacks and what not, you got professional actors running around. Often these people are hired to act out, for example, the part of a hysterical woman who just lost her son and keeps begging for help. Others are hired to act as if they are dying. These people do it extremely well, and often asked to be left alone before the training event starts, so they can get themselves in the mindset of these characters.

From what I've been told these people are utterly terrifying when it comes to how close they come to crawling of the skin of a character, and often invoke many emotions within the soldiers who are there for training.

Actors have to snap out of their role once it is done as well. Their work would be too exhausting, if not mind breaking, if they kept continuing to fuel the emotions they had to express for their work.

I see roleplay as the very same thing. Immersion yourself with your character isn't bad, as long as you manage to distance yourself from their emotions afterwards. It isn't toxic if you feel bad for your character, it starts to become a toxic habit when you as a person starts to feel bad.

Roleplaying isn't much more then reading a good book to me. I've wept over stories I've read, I've laughed, I've smiled, and so many other emotions writers have managed to convey onto me. Yet it never managed to spiral me down into a horrible depression or anything along those lines, given I can wrap my head around the fact, in the end it is just a story and it did not happen to me personally.

At the end of the day, it is all a matter of being capable of shutting that book shut again, enjoying the fact you've read something good, and looking forward to read the next part. Roleplay should be very much the same.

Kismet · **03-04-2015, 03:56 PM**

(03-04-2015, 03:43 PM)Verad Wrote: And in that regard, what "most RPers" discuss is a problem, because it erases the existence of that one thing and only discusses the existence of the something else, leading to threads where we have to articulate the existence of the one thing again. Similar concerns appear with "metagaming," where it can refer to a broad swathe of activities (pre-planning storylines, the employment of dramatic irony, making characters and storylines based on an OOC awareness of what people tend to play, etc.) but is only used as a pejorative, referring to one specific type of those activities (using OOC knowledge IC without consent).

Even the above regarding a "fragile, obsessive need" isn't necessarily problematic on its face - only when it leads to problems for other players, OOC and IC. It seems some posters deem that to be a foregone conclusion; I'm skeptical of that idea.

I'm admittedly not entirely sure of what you're getting at here? For the latter half of your post, yes, I meant specifically when other players are affected both IC and OOC. If someone is off having whatever issues and it's not affecting anyone other than themselves... of course it's not necessarily problematic.

Warren Castille · **03-04-2015, 03:58 PM**

(03-04-2015, 03:51 PM)Velandrea Wrote: It isn't toxic if you feel bad for your character, it starts to become a toxic habit when you as a person starts to feel bad.

The emotional discipline and maturity it takes to tell each of these apart is likely the factor in when something goes "too far" for most people.

allgivenover · **03-04-2015, 04:06 PM**

(03-04-2015, 03:33 PM)Verad Wrote:
(03-04-2015, 02:35 PM)undefined Wrote: And... although I have no research to back this up I do feel that most RPers tend to RP for the "wrong" reasons, those reasons being disatisfaction with real life and low self esteem/self validation. It is why so many RPers are on the young side, and why so many more give up the hobby by the time they reach my age, and why bleed can be so devastating.

Well, at least you admit you're already probably wrong about it.

I realize it's a feeling I have influenced by the bad experiences I've had in XIV and not necessarily true. Having said that I'd really welcome the coming months providing empirical evidence that I am.

Berrod Armstrong · **03-04-2015, 04:20 PM**

(03-04-2015, 04:06 PM)allgivenover Wrote:
(03-04-2015, 03:33 PM)Verad Wrote:
(03-04-2015, 02:35 PM)undefined Wrote: And... although I have no research to back this up I do feel that most RPers tend to RP for the "wrong" reasons, those reasons being disatisfaction with real life and low self esteem/self validation. It is why so many RPers are on the young side, and why so many more give up the hobby by the time they reach my age, and why bleed can be so devastating.

Well, at least you admit you're already probably wrong about it.

I realize it's a feeling I have influenced by the bad experiences I've had in XIV and not necessarily true. Having said that I'd really welcome the coming months providing empirical evidence that I am.

Well, there'll certainly be none that you're right.

IvikBlack · **03-04-2015, 04:25 PM**

Bleed is why I RP. Without it, I don't think I'd see much of a point in it. In fact, it's why I bother to experience narrative at all. I want to feel things but that doesn't mean that everything I feel will be pleasant or even what I was looking to feel at the time. And that's okay.

It's important to keep in mind that your lack of complete control over feelings is what gives those feelings meaning. If you always got exactly the response you wanted out of writing (internally and externally) there would be no challenge to it. It would rob others of any sense of agency. If the outside world cannot push back and change what you intended to happen then you're looking for a captive audience not participants in your collective fiction.

In my experience the biggest problems with bleed usually come about when someone knows what they want to happen and people defy their expectations. It takes maturity, skill, and personal fortitude to accept that you can't always get what you want out of RP.

Conflict in general is difficult to manage. Too many RPers choose characters with few faults (or faults that are hidden positives, job-interview syndrome) that they are far too attached to and then take their IC disagreements OOC because fundamentally they never intended their character to have a weakness where other people found it. I think every writer has to accept that their characters are limited by their ownÂ fallibilityÂ to some degree andÂ we're all imperfect. It is a fact that your character will be even more imperfect than you intended.

Unfortunately it's very easy for critical and/or antagonistic characters to make themselves into pariahs OOC & IC when people can't exercise self-control. Those characters drive conflict which makes plot interesting, so we need them around. Therefore it's up to every individual RPer to be professional and minimize OOC/IC contamination when it's detrimental to the RPing experience.

Thankfully, FFXIV has been one of the better communities I've come across in this regard. It hasn't really been a problem for me yet here. I'm very heartened by that.

Faye · **03-04-2015, 04:26 PM**

"Bleeding" usually has a negative connotation--and I'm not saying that's right or wrong, just that it's a reality and what the term has come to mean to most RPers. It's good to relate to your character, to have common interests/traits/knowledge/experiences. "Write what you know" is a well-known phrase, and while I think it's entirely possible and actually great to use writing to explore things you don't yet fully understand, the expression does have some wisdom that you need to have SOME common ground with your character and your story in order to write something coherent and semi-believable.

It's also natural and normal to sympathize and empathize with your character, to feel their ups and downs, to cheer for your character from time to time. If you don't, you may be a little too detached from your role-play to write something that's really moving and interesting. After all, if you don't care about your character, why should your RP partners and/or readers? Personally, I think it's all about moderation and finding role-players who share your views and goals.

Some people play characters to live out their fantasies of all kinds and use RP more or less as a form of wish fulfillment. I firmly believe that this inevitably leads to OOC drama, which is something I'd rather do without. But I also firmly believe RPing to live out some fantasy, or to play a self-insert, is not inherently bad. I don't really believe there's a "wrong" reason to role-play. Role-play doesn't have to mean the same thing and work the same way for each person. People are more than welcome to pursue the things they can't have IRL via RP. It's just not what I'm seeking in my RP and therefore makes our two styles sort of incompatible, so I'd rather avoid those types, but that doesn't mean they need to stop what they're doing. I could go on, but I'd pretty much just be rehashing what I've said in this thread.

Moonlit · **03-04-2015, 04:46 PM**

(03-04-2015, 02:37 PM)allgivenover Wrote:
(03-04-2015, 02:30 PM)OttoVann Wrote:
(03-04-2015, 01:41 PM)Hihimi Wrote: Why is escapism being thrown around like a bad word? Is someone roleplaying as a long-distance runner doing it wrong because they are in a wheelchair and always wanted to be a runner? What is wrong withÂ fulfillingÂ our dreams?

Nothing, but RP elitists will shit all over it.

I'm comfortable with being labeled an elitist.

(03-04-2015, 04:20 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote:
(03-04-2015, 04:06 PM)allgivenover Wrote:
(03-04-2015, 03:33 PM)Verad Wrote:
(03-04-2015, 02:35 PM)undefined Wrote: And... although I have no research to back this up I do feel that most RPers tend to RP for the "wrong" reasons, those reasons being disatisfaction with real life and low self esteem/self validation. It is why so many RPers are on the young side, and why so many more give up the hobby by the time they reach my age, and why bleed can be so devastating.

Well, at least you admit you're already probably wrong about it.

I realize it's a feeling I have influenced by the bad experiences I've had in XIV and not necessarily true. Having said that I'd really welcome the coming months providing empirical evidence that I am.
Well, there'll certainly be none that you're right.

I'd like to request comments like these are kept out of this thread. Specifically calling someone out on how they feel and declaring it "wrong" is not appropriate here. Likewise, attempting to bait people into an argument is also not appreciated. Please make sure that you come into this comversation with the mindset to discuss your thoughts and opinions politely and professionally.Â I'd prefer this be a discussion, again, and not an argument.

Otherwise, it is interesting to read how people view this subject, specifically after reading the article.

Harmonixer · **03-04-2015, 05:30 PM**

So I found myself smiling at Dogberry's post. I haven't LARPed in years. My experience with it only lasted a short year, and it mostly fold in on itself simply because of cost issues and the usual drama llamas running about. I never got to get really involved, and the one overnight experience I had was really just not a very pleasant one overall.

Reading his post however, was very interesting though. I can't imagine being that paranoid after such an experience. I do applaud him for his ability to carry on though.

Now that I've said that, I suppose it raises the question if I'm able to separate my characters from myself.

I'm fortunate that I often play characters that I generally want nothing to do with in life. I've had plenty of abrasive, hateful, racist and just downright vile characters. I think it has more to do with my observations of others and things done to me and me as a person, trying to understand and apply it differently. I could never bring myself to harm people the way some of my characters have, the desire isn't there. At least, I'm fairly certain! It's the matter of theatrics and entertainment. I generally RP for the benefit of others and seeing other people happier is what drives me.

By nature, I like helping people. I like watching nice characters (the good guys, whatever) overcome obstacles I place before them. As I type this, I realize that a large part of me does enjoy it. A contradiction. I like to help people! But I also love to prey on weakness and challenge others and myself. Maybe the thought process is 'if I make it harder for others, they will improve and thusly make it harder for me in return'. I think that's me trying to identify my own 'bleed'.

Dogberry · **03-04-2015, 05:39 PM**

(03-04-2015, 05:30 PM)Harmonixer Wrote: Reading his post however, was very interesting though. I can't imagine being that paranoid after such an experience. I do applaud him for his ability to carry on though.

I would say that's largely because Dystopia Rising is a post-apocalypse zombie horror game. I pay $65 a month plus gear and camping expenses to have the crap scared out of me.

Harmonixer · **03-04-2015, 06:19 PM**

Ah-hah! Well that seems more reasonable then. Certainly getting your money's worth!

I will say that also appreciate OP's post. Really got me thinking on the subject.

OttoVann · **03-04-2015, 09:11 PM**

(03-04-2015, 02:35 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:
(03-04-2015, 02:30 PM)OttoVann Wrote:
(03-04-2015, 01:41 PM)Hihimi Wrote: Why is escapism being thrown around like a bad word? Is someone roleplaying as a long-distance runner doing it wrong because they are in a wheelchair and always wanted to be a runner? What is wrong withÂ fulfillingÂ our dreams?

Nothing, but RP elitists will shit all over it.

Told myself I wouldn't post here, but here goes.

Blending makes better characters, in my opinion. But it has also got this stigma as of late that "a person who blends in their RP" isn't "stable" enough to separate IC from OOC. Which I do not agree with. But then it'll be argued that "blending a little it OK everyone!", but who judges that amount?

There's been people who can't easily or cleanly enough seperate IC/OOC but this site, and most RP communities I've seen expand those mishaps to the whole and unanimously denounce it. If that makes sense. Where bleeding stops and ends is hard to say anyways, and I'm not even sure where that line is. I think I do a good enough job though, and my flavors of RP are most hazard prone to that sort of negative IC/OOC blend. Rambling, ignore me.

Gone. · **03-04-2015, 09:48 PM**

Bleed is like ERP; most people do it, but few will make the admittance due to silly community-driven stigmas.

Any character worth their weight will have part of their creator invested, as well, no question about it. Those that would shun someone for that is missing both the how and why of fiction in its entirety.

Gaspard · **03-05-2015, 11:31 AM**

I've always said, and also believe that bleed-through is something that 'cannot' be stopped in roleplay, in no fashion whatsoever. Our emotions aren't as simple as that we can file them into Out-of-character and In-Character. If what we roleplay invokes emotional responses from us, they 'will' impact us. And it should. Even if someone has such a distant view as seeing roleplay as a 'writing exercise', if it doesn't invoke emotions in you you're not really comitting to it. Think of it this way;

If you can't feel emotionally touched or impacted by your own play, how do you expect others to be?

The trick to it all is to be aware that it is inevitable, even necessary in some parts and still be able to deal and enjoy the various emotions you get from it, without allowing it to impact your realistical portray of the your character as you've envisioned him, or allowing it to be the festering grounds for OOC drama. Up to this day, my fondest memories of Roleplay are those that invoked a degree of fear and misery in me, or sometimes happiness and accomplishment.Â

Or put simply ; Roleplayers play roles, and therein aren't writers solely, they're actors. And every Role, every Character comes with his own emotions, state of mind and so on. The more indepth you get, the blurrier everything gets. For a more profound example ; See the difference between traditional acting and method acting. Method actors often times deliver the most stunning performances, but also suffer form a bleed of their own. Probably the most prominent example of our current age would be Heath Ledger.

So the trick to it all is basically ; Go as deep as you can aslong you're comfortable with the depth of bleed through you allow, and make sure to solely restrict this OOC/IC bleeding/blending to your character. If it does get to you on a personal level, out of that, and stands in danger of coloring your OOC life or OOC actions, take a step back, and sort it out.

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"Bleed" - Article & Thoughts

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes