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Sounsyy · **06-24-2015, 11:59 AM**

Think I voiced my opinion on this a while back for a similar topic. I believe there should be a separation of OOC level from IC skill. ICly I play a 32 year old Ala Mhigan who has been a sword fighter for almost twenty years. She's been a Coliseum Gladiator, Resistance fighter, then later Knight of the Baracuda in Limsa. OOCly, however, I only have a 26 GLA on Balmung. Why? Because my main PVE character is on Hyperion. She's 50 all classes, 60 WAR, final coil beat, and super high achievement rating. But I also work full time and generally don't have the desire to try to repeat all that work on another character just to have my RP "taken seriously."

The problem with the level approach is that I could feasibly push Souns to be a lv50-60 GLA on Balmung, which might illustrate her having IC experience, but another RPer who is also 60 PLD could be RPing a sixteen year old master swordsman with no backstory and because of level the two characters would be on equal footing per level. Which, to me, makes no sense. Backstory and/or RP should dictate the skill level of a character, not what class/level they are.

Souns won 4 Grindstones. That rp gave her IC reputation for being fairly badass. I don't consider my character to be super strong, fantastical, or warrior of light status. She's just a good soldier. And my personal hope is that no one would look down on my alt or my rp, which I've put a lot of thought into, just because I'm too busy to level her to cap. If you feel its unfair to face my low level, you can always pair off against my dreadwyrm fighter and see how your item level 80 sixteen year old fairs there?

Sin · **06-24-2015, 12:07 PM**

In my opinion, roleplaying in an MMO is at its most enjoyable as a creative interactive storytelling activity. OOC achievement is as irrelevant as all other OOC things. Out of character. Not applicable.

For me, the mechanics of the -game- in which you roleplay should be kept completely separate from the stories we weave. The mechanics and rules of the game are set so that you may enjoy the particular experience the Developers have set out for you.

That's not what we're doing when we roleplay. We seek a different experience. We're enjoying a different activity, a game of interactive storytelling. In this game, the only rules we need take into account are the rules that bind the world in which we're telling our stories. The lore.

My character does not see a blue plate above your head with your name nor can he poke you and know everything you've ever learned. That is ridiculous. All that my characters will ever react to is how your character looks, smells, sounds, and feels as you present it to me in your emotes.

Your imagination should not be limited by how much time you can put forth into the game. For me, as others have said, I will only quirk a brow at lowbies because they imply two things, a lack of lore knowledge and a lack of commitment to the game and so I'm hesitant to engage and roleplay. Otherwise, if I know the person is a good storyteller, and is telling me their level ten thaumaturge is a bearer of the Ancient Wazasu staff and secrets of the Kupaganaga peoples, I will roleplay accordingly, and if conflict ever develops in the story we're weaving, then I will emote according to the power of the character I've created. His own background, experiences, and training. Together we will tell a cool story, and have a good time being creative. Game mechanics be damned.

I don't rp that all rogues must have two daggers, nor do I rp that a person versed in Thaumaturgy finds it physically impossible to pick up a gladiator's shield, nor do I rp that a person must hold their weapon at their side, nor that all women must ride sidesaddle.

These are game mechanics, and they should never come in the way of your storytelling.

Melkire · **06-24-2015, 12:41 PM**

I'm of the opinion that someone roleplaying a character who has certain skills that more or less borrow from the aesthetic of a class/job and its mechanics has an obligation to at least be familiar and knowledgeable about what said class/job is capable of.

Take the difference between pugilists and monks, for instance. There are certain things a pugilist can and cannot do, and the distinction between them and monks is an important one.

A pugilist is more or less a martial fighter trained to understand and utilize their body to inflict harm upon other bodies. They're not known for particularly superhuman feats (save Hamon Holyfist, but come on now, it's Hamon Holyfist), which is to say you wouldn't expect them to break rock with their fists, or cross long distances in the blink of an eye, or any other such dazzling displays.

You would, however, expect them of monks, and that's largely due to the lore behind them. Furthermore, I'd expect someone playing MNK at level 60 to have a better understanding of what such a character ought to be capable of than, say, a level 25 pugilist who can't even access Greased Lightning III to see how stupendously quick/fast/swift a monk can be. That's tied up in "OoC achievement" : if you've played pugilist up through the level 30 quests, if you've unlocked monk, and if you've played monk up until 50 (or 60 now), then you know what you're talking about when you write for such a character.

This won't always matter (generic swordsman characters can more or less ignore GLA/PLD lore and mechanics without detriment) but OoC knowledge, familiarity, and skill do contribute, in my eyes, to how seriously I take someone's character and that character's actions, and to how my character reacts to those. In a way, it comes back to the question of how lore-compliant folks want to be, and how lore compliant they expect their RP partners to be. I, for instance, am not someone to sit there and accept a pugilist throwing a punch through the air that someone translates into a gust of wind that stikes my monk from several malms away. In the first place, Air Render is from an entirely different Final Fantasy title altogether, and just because the lore there supported it doesn't mean that the lore in XIV does. Secondly, according to XIV lore, monks aren't even capable of that... so why should I accept that a pugilist is?

Cato · **06-24-2015, 12:54 PM**

I think it's important for a role-player to be able to show rather than tell when it comes to their character. All too often I see a situation where someone claims that their character is a seasoned soldier only for their level to be so low that they can't actually go out into the game world without dying in a couple of hits.

I also think it's important for a role-player to do as much of the game's content as possible to soak up the lore. Again, all too often I see people doing their own thing and remaining ignorant to what, exactly, is plausible within Eorzea and what isn't.

That's not to say that people should be expected to clear T12 before they role-play a skilled adventurer but I don't think it's unfair to expect role-players to take some aspects of the game's mechanics/content into consideration when developing a character.

Caspar · **06-24-2015, 01:09 PM**

That's a bit unreasonably inflexible. In FFXIV a mnk can fires shock waves and laser beans from their fists, and you find a relatively common Asian fantasy motif, "air pressure" strikes impossible to believe? I'd been intending to keep my rp somewhat low power and even now I'm being pushed this way. And what of other monastic orders? Does ever superhuman fist fighter have to be Fist of Rhalgr? I'd find that boring and hard to reconcile with the lore regardless.

Magellan · **06-24-2015, 01:15 PM**

(06-24-2015, 01:09 PM)Caspar Wrote: That's a bit unreasonably inflexible. In FFXIV a mnk can fires shock waves and laser beans from their fists, and you find a relatively common Asian fantasy motif, "air pressure" strikes impossible to believe? I'd been intending to keep my rp somewhat low power and even now I'm being pushed this way. And what of other monastic orders? Does ever superhuman fist fighter have to be Fist of Rhalgr? I'd find that boring and hard to reconcile with the lore regardless.

Haha yea. My Au Ra monk belonged to a Doman temple with its own tenets and skills.Â

I feel there's a bit of a rift between those who create their own content, and those who only adhere to what they can see. Neither side is inherently wrong or right, but to go too far in either direction kind've precludes you from larger community rp.

Flexibility within reason, Â is basically what um trying to say.

Hammersmith · **06-24-2015, 01:23 PM**

Here's another thing:

Getting tied up in identities that are rooted in game mechanics.

Yes, the guilds have root in lore. Â The mystic ones more than the martial, to some degree, since only really the Gladiator's guild which feeds the bloodsands in Uldah has any kind of serious sway/

But really none of this requires you to assume that because someone has an axe they define themselves as a Marauder (Hammer is not a maurader, but carries a large axe because it's a practical tool for a giant person in an anime world. Â Can't cut a gate down with a sword, as he says.)

Hammer's a siege smith and retired soldier, with a side serving of extreme malevolence. Â No marauder involved in the char, at all. Â He can, and does, brawl, but if you tossed a sword, a spear, or anything else into his lap, he'd probably try to kill you with it. Â He's just old and has handled most weapons enough that he can try to murder you with it better than any greenhorn would. Hell, he's gone to the grindstone with a The Stick/lead filled shillelagh for most of his time there. Â That doesn't even exist in game.

Hammer's defined by what he actions he takes, what foul worded game he talks, and whatever motherfucker is unlucky enough to start getting hit by whatever motherfucker he has in hand after those two fail.

Not by a class name or guild.

McBeefâ„¢ · **06-24-2015, 01:26 PM**

I think it's at least important to level a char somewhere. There are things about classes that are not obvious at first. For example from 50-60 Paladins change from 'Royal Guard' to 'Holy Knight', and if someone never progressed far in the game, they'd never get sense of that.

I don't really view it as a requirement, as others have said I'll still treat people generally the same, however I think it helps your RP.

Though I tend to put less effort into RP's with low level characters, since I've seen so many just fade away and never log back on. If someone is in full raid gear, they've already sunk so much time into this game they'll probably stick around

Melkire · **06-24-2015, 01:31 PM**

(06-24-2015, 01:09 PM)Caspar Wrote: That's a bit unreasonably inflexible. In FFXIV a mnk can fires shock waves and laser beans from their fists, and you find a relatively common Asian fantasy motif, "air pressure" strikes impossible to believe? I'd been intending to keep my rp somewhat low power and even now I'm being pushed this way. And what of other monastic orders? Does ever superhuman fist fighter have to be Fist of Rhalgr? I'd find that boring and hard to reconcile with the lore regardless.

From an aesthetic standpoint while observing the mechanics, most offensive PGL/MNK skills require bodily contact with either the target or the ground. The only exceptions that come to mind are Arm of the Destroyer, Mantra (not offensive anyway), and Elixir Field, the latter of which, yes, looks like a laser beam.

As someone who prefers to remain as lore-compliant as possible, I tend to avoid characters who roleplay pugilists shooting laser beams or such. Is the character a skilled monk who's invested months if not years of training into the discipline and come away with the knowledge and skill to do such? Then by all means. If not? Then my character is going to believe that there's more to it, and is going to want to know how the other character is capable of such.

Please keep in mind that this is merely my opinion and my preference. Doesn't affect anyone but me and those who interact with my characters. Does this come off as inflexible? Maybe, but that would be a pretty extreme interpretation of my stance on such things, I feel.

As always: people should feel free to roleplay what they want to roleplay, and to find like-minded folks who will roleplay alongside them. That doesn't mean everyone's views will line up, nor should it.

/shrugs

Faye · **06-24-2015, 01:36 PM**

I'm of the unpopular opinion that I think in-game achievement has some bearing on your characters strength. It's just difficult to bump into a total stranger with a level five character with godlike strength!!!!11 and be okay with them beating my level 50+ decently geared character into the ground. There are plenty of exceptions, of course, like if someone can give me a good reason why their level five character is so much stronger than mine, or if they just legitimately outsmart/outdo my character, if it was an alt made for a storyline I'm participating in, etc.

That's not to say I apply it as a rule or anything, though (and it's probably really not much of an issue since most of my characters aren't instigators or eager for a brawl, and I almost never do combat RP). It's just that if some freshly-made character suddenly shows up and starts throwing punches at my character for no reason, I'm not going to take it very seriously, though there are other factors that play into that, such as suspicion that such a character may just be an alt someone made for the purposes of drama or harassment.

Dogshin · **06-24-2015, 01:40 PM**

It is terribly wrong to claim that you have an advantage on someone JUST because of your in-game level. Â It hinders the roleplay possibilities for low-level characters. Your level doesn't have anything to do with your roleplay, other than glamour/ weapon varieties.

This shouldn't even be a topic to discuss.

Faye · **06-24-2015, 01:45 PM**

(06-24-2015, 01:40 PM)Dogshin Wrote: It is terribly wrong to claim that you have an advantage on someone JUST because of your in-game level. Â It hinders the roleplay possibilities for low-level characters. Your level doesn't have anything to do with your roleplay, other than glamour/ weapon varieties.

This shouldn't even be a topic to discuss.

People are allowed to have opinions, yo.

Dogshin · **06-24-2015, 01:46 PM**

(06-24-2015, 01:45 PM)Faye Wrote:
(06-24-2015, 01:40 PM)Dogshin Wrote: It is terribly wrong to claim that you have an advantage on someone JUST because of your in-game level. Â It hinders the roleplay possibilities for low-level characters. Your level doesn't have anything to do with your roleplay, other than glamour/ weapon varieties.

This shouldn't even be a topic to discuss.

People are allowed to have opinions, yo.

Said what I had to say :/

Under any roleplay scene that isn't considered as ''casual'', OOC achievements doesn't have anything to do with your IC power. Doesn't matter if that guy is level1, or level50

Caspar · **06-24-2015, 01:49 PM**

(06-24-2015, 01:31 PM)Melkire Wrote:
(06-24-2015, 01:09 PM)Caspar Wrote: That's a bit unreasonably inflexible. In FFXIV a mnk can fires shock waves and laser beans from their fists, and you find a relatively common Asian fantasy motif, "air pressure" strikes impossible to believe? I'd been intending to keep my rp somewhat low power and even now I'm being pushed this way. And what of other monastic orders? Does ever superhuman fist fighter have to be Fist of Rhalgr? I'd find that boring and hard to reconcile with the lore regardless.

From an aesthetic standpoint while observing the mechanics, most PGL/MNK skills require bodily contact with either the target or the ground. The only exceptions that come to mind are Arm of the Destroyer, Mantra, and Elixir Field, the latter of which, yes, looks like a laser beam.

As someone who prefers to remain as lore-compliant as possible, I tend to avoid characters who roleplay pugilists shooting laser beams or such. Is the character a skilled monk who's invested months if not years of training into the discipline and come away with the knowledge and skill to do such? Then by all means. If not? Then my character is going to believe that there's more to it, and is going to want to know how the other character is capable of such.

Please keep in mind that this is merely my opinion and my preference. Doesn't affect anyone but me and those who interact with my characters. Does this come off as inflexible? Maybe, but that would be a pretty extreme interpretation of my stance on such things, I feel.

As always: people should feel free to roleplay what they want to roleplay, and to find like-minded folks who will roleplay alongside them. That doesn't mean everyone's views will line up, nor should it.

/shrugs

I'm not going to argue what a monk should or shouldn't be capable of, only that In my experience, it generally ends up the smarter choice to be open than closed. I think straining to believe a character's IC capabilities because they're unsupported by game mechanics is similar to arguing a particular dish of food cannot be innovated in setting regardless of whether the ingredients exist because a culinarian can't cook it. If the superhuman tools are there, a plausible explanation can be made, and rather than getting defensive about it, I think it's more productive to create realistic awe or disbelief of this rare and uncanny skill. There's more to be done with that than simply ignoring it. Of course, I do advocate the grittier, euroboo style of rp and know it doesn't mix with more blatantly wuxia/animesque play. I just figure I'd say it because more or less while I don't think there's anything wrong with choosing rp carefully, I'm particularly sensitive to differing levels of realism between players as I've been kind of shunted into a higher level of power narrative wise than is previously intended, and I dislike thinking payers in similar situations will have their choices limited by inflexible rpers. As for the ic and ooc character ability, I still put "very important on account of feeling rpers miss out on lore and valuable props in the form of gear and skills .

Arik · **06-24-2015, 01:49 PM**

I'm, personally, of the mindset that OOC achievement =/= IC capability. Does it help with immersion to be level capped and decked out in shiny, character-appropriate gear? Absolutely. Is it necessary in order to demonstrate your character is competent in what they say they do? No. For me, that's all about the other player's portrayal of the character and whether or not it convinces me of their knowledge and experience.Â

I've encountered a plethora of "highly skilled ______" who I've rolled my eyes at in the past, but it was never because of what I saw when my cursor hovered over their character-- it was because of poor writing, shoddy character development, and usually a clear impression that they weren't writing a powerful character for a good reason, but were just doing so for the power trip. Frankly, I've rolled my eyes at just about as many level-capped characters for this reason as I have low-level characters.

That said, I've actually seen some fairly nasty behavior from both sides of this argument-- as much from the "Well, I won't take you seriously unless you're level capped" camp as from the "I'm level 25 and playing a 40+ old war veteran with boatloads of experience" side. I've seen level-capped characters break the laws of lore and existence, bordering on godmodding behavior, in games while fighting lower level characters. I've seen level capped characters pick fights with low-level characters only to refuse to partake in IC combat unless the in game duel mechanics were used. Why? Because they were a higher level and/or better geared and were, apparently, out to prove something.

If you can substantiate your character's IC achievements with OOC mechanics, then that's awesome. When I see someone who's obviously very progressed into a game, who has clearly put a lot of blood, sweat and tears into achieving what they have, I am absolutely impressed and, on an OOC level, I'm probably bowing down to them at my keyboard. But not everyone has that kind of time to devote to games.Â Some people play these games exclusivelyÂ for RP and thus either only level in order to supplement that RP, or don't level much at all. Heck, there have been games in the past for me where I never hit level cap at all but played the thing for years. Why? Because I wound up hating the game mechanics themselves but found myself pulled into the RP scene enough that I stuck around just for that. I just don't find it fair to tell people who may have limited time or even capability that they have not earned the right to play an experienced character, despite whatever storytelling capabilities they might bring to the table.

In the end though, if someone's trying to lord their "all-powerfulness" over another character -- be it imaginary or substantiated in mechanics--- their game progression or level is irrelevant, if you ask me. Someone who's issuing OOC threats regarding their character's "particular set of skills" (~ Liam Neeson) or are trying to shoehorn their alleged badassery into RP will be just as obnoxious at level 60 as they would be at level 5.

Poll: How important is OOC level/Achievement? You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
Not important at all.	55.56%	60	55.56%
Somewhat important.	37.04%	40	37.04%
Very important.	7.41%	8	7.41%
Total		108 vote(s)	100%

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How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly?

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