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Olofantur · **10-30-2013, 11:48 AM**

(10-29-2013, 08:49 PM)EVGSovereign Wrote: Guys, guys. Hey.

I did not mean for this to turn into a full-blown debate. I just wanted some advice on how to smooth out the leveling process.

Eh, I enjoy it, a passionate community often produces the best results. And it certainly lends itself to promoting a stronger social cohesion, I can respect people with differing opinions who are passionate, but people who aren't invested in their own thoughts tend to bore me.

A note about optimizing EXP gain from FATEs, the level of reward (bronze/silver/gold) is based on (for monster spawn FATEs, not turn ins or NMs, and even those to a certain extent) the amount of mobs that end up on your aggro table. by this I mean that a gladiator can stand around in dark devices spamming FLASH and get just as much reward as me spamming Blizz2. This also lends itself to partying since your allies tagging mobs adds to your contribution as well, particularly handy if you're a healer.

Also, depends on what group you might be in but some will farm the DD area if the FATE spawn is taking too long. i've encountered a few who tele to Mor Dhona and back, but I haven't done the math for the FATEs there to see if its worth if post 45.

Hrm, more food for thought I suppose.

BlessedSilence · **10-30-2013, 11:59 AM**

(10-29-2013, 11:35 AM)Olofantur Wrote: Yes you can get it back up on screen, as to the rest, I suppose i'm just used to having quests being tucked away in the corners of the world, EQ and 1.0 were a harsh mistresses. I wasn't saying its easy, just providing an outside resource, the Srirachi sauce to an otherwise bland meal.

Coming from EQ2 myself, with tons of places to go and quests that will get you to level 95, in so many ways I feel this game is a few steps backwards.

I feel this is in the mindset of the Eastern way of MMOs (lots I have played is all about the grind) and not so much on the Western front.

I was able to do logs and quests to get me to level 47. Â So now I am in the same boat.

I do love this game, but this one things really irks me.

K'dath · **10-30-2013, 01:08 PM**

(10-30-2013, 11:59 AM)BlessedSilence Wrote: I feel this is in the mindset of the Eastern way of MMOs (lots I have played is all about the grind) and not so much on the Western front.

I was having a discussion about this last night in fact. I was complaining that the end game is totally locked off from you if you don't do arbitrary story quests, a system I am not okay with. I am totally indifferent to the main story and would be fine with FATE grinding my face into a gory mess if it got me to 50 and I could then do what I perceive is 'the fun stuff'.

"Well K'dath, you whiny ass, just play a different game then if you hate the story so much."

But that's not my point. I like the game. I don't like that there is only ONE way to do things and that you are locked out of most of the content if you do not complete the story.

I compared it to WoW and GW2, the only still running MMOs I've played for more than 30 days, which have variable ways to get to level cap to cover various types of appeal. Don't like this faction/story/questline? There's another area you can go to! Don't like questing? Dungeons! Pvp! You can also grind, if that's what you like to do! You can level in WoW 1-90 without ever killing a single mob and it has been done. With GW2 it's the same thing, they reward you for being part of the world passively, exploring the world isn't just '300xp here and there' it's a full blow, legitimate way to reach the end game. Climb that mountain and poke the flag on the top, it's just as efficient as questing. (I leveled to 80 only doing exploring and whatever dynamic events pop'd up between vistas. It was the most fun I ever had leveling in anything.)

HOWEVER you get to 80/90 you can then proceed to, you know, DO end level stuff. There's no 'Well, you didn't do this long quest chain in Krasarang Wilds, so no Siege of Org for you until you finish it!' It's done. You have made it to the end. Enjoy your end game! We will have something new for you to do in a few months and you can start all over.

To which I was told: "It's because of cultural differences. Westerners want instant gratification."

That statement kind frustrated me, because I felt like it immediately equated my frustration to, uh, this. I suppose it is true though! Complaining about the right to do content you haven't 'earned' the right to do in the context of the story isn't too dissimilar to whining about gear requirements. But it just makes me feel like this game is too married to the 'traditional' FF model with the MMO endgame tacked on at the end. If I wanted to play FFXII... I'd play FFXII! I want to partner up with people I meet and kill things and not have to be concerned about poorly written tripe the story if I don't feel it's necessary for my enjoyment.

Final Fantasy 14 is comparatively a young game, it'll improve, and that's fine. WoW is almost a decade old and is a titan among men who eats other AAA MMOs for snacks. Guild Wars, as a franchise, is nearly as old and covers a unique niche with its F2P model. FF14 shouldn't TRY to be those games or shamelessly copy them. It's important to have your own identity... but linearity shouldn't be it.

Just... my rambling thoughts on the matter.

LeCard · **10-30-2013, 02:10 PM**

(10-30-2013, 11:48 AM)Olofantur Wrote: Also, depends on what group you might be in but some will farm the DD area if the FATE spawn is taking too long. i've encountered a few who tele to Mor Dhona and back, but I haven't done the math for the FATEs there to see if its worth if post 45.

Hrm, more food for thought I suppose.

^ What I have been saying the whole time. The mobs there are good for 3-5k exp PER-SPAWN of the group. get yourself a party with a BLM and a tank with flash and you can rake in the exp while the FATEs are waiting to pop.

makes things go much faster. also 2 spawned groups between fates is aprx 10k exp. considering at 47 gold at a FATE in N. Than gets you 12k exp. (not counting the exp gain from kills) it is like a mini FATE while you wait =)

BlessedSilence · **10-30-2013, 03:21 PM**

Oh I'm sure it will improve.

I guess I'm just spoiled on non-timed dungeons, always being in groups and having many things to do.

In all honesty, I got to about level 42 before I had to focus on grinding FATES to get to the next level.

I'm here for the long run. Â I love my company too much and many friends I've met.

K'dath · **10-30-2013, 03:30 PM**

Oh my, I'd loved non-timed dungeons. Not because I can't finish them in the allotted time. Just so I can take part in shenanigans in the empty places after there's no more enemies, haha.

Some higher level people and myself ran through Sastasha and roflstomped it in about 7 minutes, and just ran amok playing around in it with our swimsuits and pirate hats on.

LiadansWhisper · **10-30-2013, 03:54 PM**

I have to say, I would really like non-timed dungeons. Â There's something really epic about that first time you went to Blackrock Depths and spent like, 4 hours in there just exploring and clearing the whole place.

Back when I was playing NWN, I would RP through dungeons, and sometimes it might take us 3 hours to get through the harder ones, RPing the whole time. Â It was fabulous. Â Big Grin

Olofantur · **10-30-2013, 04:02 PM**

(10-30-2013, 03:54 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: I have to say, I would really like non-timed dungeons. Â There's something really epic about that first time you went to Blackrock Depths and spent like, 4 hours in there just exploring and clearing the whole place.

Back when I was playing NWN, I would RP through dungeons, and sometimes it might take us 3 hours to get through the harder ones, RPing the whole time. Â It was fabulous. Â

"What do you mean you've never attuned to molten core?! GUYS we need to go through BRD again!" /sigh

At least once it was over with you could just use the trick where you hop into the lava under the pedestal and zone in immediately.

Kara, the past time zones, The Sunwell, Magister Terrace... I'd dearly love to be able to explore the nooks and crannies of the dungeons in ARR as you could, even in certain 1.0 ones. Heck, Tam-Tara had its own Aether crystal. I wonder if they would consider the option of introducing a synch-less time-less dungeon mode, perhaps removing chests/boss drops or anything else that could be exploited..

Anyone know if theres a thread on it at the official forums? Might be buried.

Kismet · **10-30-2013, 05:12 PM**

I also want dungeons that aren't timed. There are a lot of REALLY cool areas I would love to have more than 10-20mins to RP in... <_<

I also agree with K'dath in that SE's brilliant idea of locking players out of end-game content if they don't complete the story quests is a major turn-off. Perhaps I was spoiled by GW2, but let me choose how I want to progress through the game and access higher level content.

Olofantur · **10-30-2013, 05:26 PM**

(10-30-2013, 05:12 PM)Kismet Wrote: I also want dungeons that aren't timed. There are a lot of REALLY cool areas I would love to have more than 10-20mins to RP in... <_<

I also agree with K'dath in that SE's brilliant idea of locking players out of end-game content if they don't complete the story quests is a major turn-off. Perhaps I was spoiled by GW2, but let me choose how I want to progress through the game and access higher level content.

While I don't entirely agree with SE's decision, the End-game content is directly tied into the story line so I can kind of understand their views, as far as the internal lore of the world is concerned, behind gating the content, perhaps they think "well the raids are a part of the story, and to see the end, you have to go through the beginning."

Again, I don't really care if people are interested in the story, twelve knows you can right click and escape-cancel your way through it if you don't want to watch any cut scenes. But i've had enough people in Prae going "WHO IS THIS LAHABREA GUY ANYWAYS" to make me cringe.

Illira · **10-30-2013, 05:41 PM**

(10-30-2013, 04:02 PM)Olofantur Wrote: Anyone know if theres a thread on it at the official forums? Might be buried.

Why yes... yes there was. On the beta forums at least. There was a monster of a thread, hundred of pages by the time it finally died out.

It was... a volatile thread to say the least... There was a lot of white knighting and involved in defense of the blanketed 90 min dungeon timer. Another common theme was a refusal to understand/acknowledge that there is more than one way to enjoy/use dungeons. That there are some players, such as roleplayers, who may have valid reasons for wanting to stay in dungeons longer, and that no, it really doesn't affect the population at large. And if it did, well... that points to much bigger issues surrounding the design of the game as well as its server architecture.

Unfortunately, it appears that the beta forums aren't even just locked/archived for reference/viewing and but are unaccessible at all to users. I just did a quick search on the official forums as they are now, and I don't see anything super relevant, except for a couple of 2012 threads concerning them.Â
http://tinyurl.com/lyynhlg
http://tinyurl.com/ofn7yl9
They don't seem to hit the same sweet spot that the Beta one did, and are out of date now that ARR is actually around.

K'dath · **10-30-2013, 05:55 PM**

(10-30-2013, 05:26 PM)Olofantur Wrote:
(10-30-2013, 05:12 PM)Kismet Wrote: I also want dungeons that aren't timed. There are a lot of REALLY cool areas I would love to have more than 10-20mins to RP in... <_<

I also agree with K'dath in that SE's brilliant idea of locking players out of end-game content if they don't complete the story quests is a major turn-off. Perhaps I was spoiled by GW2, but let me choose how I want to progress through the game and access higher level content.

While I don't entirely agree with SE's decision, the End-game content is directly tied into the story line so I can kind of understand their views, as far as the internal lore of the world is concerned, behind gating the content, perhaps they think "well the raids are a part of the story, and to see the end, you have to go through the beginning."

Again, I don't really care if people are interested in the story, twelve knows you can right click and escape-cancel your way through it if you don't want to watch any cut scenes. But i've had enough people in Prae going "WHO IS THIS LAHABREA GUY ANYWAYS" to make me cringe.

But the dungeons and raids in WoW are connected to the story. Even some of the minor dungeons help tie up massive, glaring plot holes that go otherwise unaddressed. The raids, in fact, ARE the story. The entirety of the fate of Azeroth is tied up in them. They're arguably more important than the actual quests when it comes to that point. (WoW's story telling overall is somewhat weak, YMMV on that end)

But you don't have to do the story to enjoy them for what they are. In fact, because of the branching leveling paths and abundance of quests, you'll often out level and area/dungeon before you even get to the point where its dungeon becomes relevant. Some dungeon stories are completely missing if you play a different faction! The story compliments the content. It's the framing device. It is not the content itself.

In your regular JRPG, yes, the story is the content. But I think that's a bad model for an MMO. I would have preferred to been able to grind and do things with people and then do the story. Gods know I'd do it anyway because I am a lore nazi and need to know everything. But holding my nose in it and scrubbing my face like an SOS pad is not a good way to sell your narrative. For me, slogging through it is tedious and it's being used like a punishment instead of a reward.

Again, YMMV, but I think regardless of whether you think it's a good story or not, it's a bad design choice.

LiadansWhisper · **10-30-2013, 05:56 PM**

I think that the game feels like a Final Fantasy game, and that the emphasis on the storyline is a huge part of that. Â It's not for everyone, to be sure, but I loved being able to see the end.

...I'm not so keen on the idea of having to do Aurum Vale to access endgame content, tho. Â >.<

Kismet · **10-30-2013, 06:19 PM**

Emphasis on story is absolutely fine. But if I wanted to be force-fedÂ a story, as opposed to having the choice of experiencing a story or not, I would go and play a single-player RPG.

Olofantur · **10-30-2013, 06:27 PM**

(10-30-2013, 05:41 PM)Illira Wrote: Why yes... yes there was. On the beta forums at least. There was a monster of a thread, hundred of pages by the time it finally died out.

Yes, the Alpha and Beta forums both got quite out of control, I was hoping for a more current/ongoing one, I am loathe to necro a thread. Ah well, thanks for the links anyways perhaps the issue will be addressed in a live letter.

EDIT: as an aside, have they mentioned in the past live letters a thought on addressing the limitation of the instance hosting server by purchasing more? unlikely that it will happen soon, but that was my understanding for the limitation.

(10-30-2013, 05:55 PM)Kdath Wrote: But the dungeons and raids in WoW are connected to the story.

The story compliments the content. It's the framing device. It is not the content itself.

In your regular JRPG, yes, the story is the content. But I think that's a bad model for an MMO.

Perhaps your content =/= story comment is the crux of it, for me the story is the key piece of content, if I only wanted tab-targeting mechanics and roleplay I have other options, but none with the backdrop and narrative of Primals, Garleans and the like. The seemingly and sometimes literal shark jumping is one of a dozen reasons WoW and I parted. The dark, drama-ish narrative is what (aside from social events) is what keeps me interested.

(10-30-2013, 06:19 PM)Kismet Wrote: Emphasis on story is absolutely fine. But if I wanted to be force-fedÂ a story, as opposed to having the choice of experiencing a story or not, I would go and play a single-player RPG.

As an aside, we can all agree that you can skip the story line right? you can cancel out of cut scenes and right click spam through chat...

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