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Melkire · **08-28-2014, 02:42 PM**

(08-28-2014, 02:32 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: See, the problem with that argument is that it's incredibly counter-productive. The ONLY reason to even attempt to conquer Gridania in the first place is for its natural resources; burning it all down negates any reason for going there at all. You don't even have the argument of Gridania being a massive existential threat to justify such extreme measures, as, as everyone already mentioned, most of their most threatening features only work defensively, not offensively.

Of course they COULD be really, really stupid and burn it all down and lose all of that for the sake of "victory", but, uh, yeah, nobody really wins in that scenario. May as well just throw everything to the Empire if you're gonna go that route.

(08-28-2014, 02:34 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Hey, no one is looking at this logically. In a strictly "Let's you and him fight" scenario that's the most direct way to obtain victory.

This.

This whole discussion is more or less "SUPERMAN VS GOKU, WHO WINS?". It's a hypothetical that discardsÂ any and all interplayÂ between the entities, includingÂ justification and cause,Â for the sake of argument. In any actual encounter, Superman and Goku would befriend one another and go hit up a diner somewhere.

McBeefâ„¢ · **08-28-2014, 02:42 PM**

(08-28-2014, 02:32 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: See, the problem with that argument is that it's incredibly counter-productive. The ONLY reason to even attempt to conquer Gridania in the first place is for its natural resources; burning it all down negates any reason for going there at all. You don't even have the argument of Gridania being a massive existential threat to justify such extreme measures, as, as everyone already mentioned, most of their most threatening features only work defensively, not offensively.

Of course they COULD be really, really stupid and burn it all down and lose all of that for the sake of "victory", but, uh, yeah, nobody really wins in that scenario. May as well just throw everything to the Empire if you're gonna go that route.

Um Ul'dah would be burning down trees. Think of it as just clearing some brush so they can get to all those delicious minerals.

Dogberry · **08-28-2014, 02:44 PM**

(08-28-2014, 02:42 PM)Melkire Wrote: In any actual encounter, Superman and Goku would befriend one another and go hit up a diner somewhere.

That's pretty much what happens in my ClarkxGoku slashfic. At first.

Zyrusticae · **08-28-2014, 02:48 PM**

Well, as far as I'm concerned, any wartime victory condition that precludes the acquisition of resources is completely useless to me.

If all you care about is which side stands on top at the end, and disregard whether or not they can survive afterwards, it just feels cheap.

(08-28-2014, 02:42 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: Um Ul'dah would be burning down trees. Think of it as just clearing some brush so they can get to all those delicious minerals.

Yeah, no, I can't think of it this way. It's just too many levels of stupid for me to accept.

All that food, all that natural flora and fauna, all that wood, and you just throw it all away for some mineral resources that you can't even confirm are actually there in the first place?

I mean, really. I can see it happen, but it wouldn't be a victory, especially as the desertification would increase dramatically as a result of the clear-cutting. Several generations down the line those people are going to be looking incredibly stupid once they realize what they lost.

Sounds like RL, really.

Melkire · **08-28-2014, 02:52 PM**

(08-28-2014, 02:38 PM)Dogberry Wrote: Yeah, burn the magic forest. Worked in Princess Mononoke.

...so you're saying that the Elementals are going to strike out across Thanalan to hit Ul'dah. Or across the sea to hit Limsa. In their weakened state.

The relative distances and proportions don't exactly line up in your comparison... especially if guerrilla warfare is employed. Wouldn't the Elementals go after the individuals setting fire to the forest rather than the abstract entity behind them?

(08-28-2014, 02:44 PM)Dogberry Wrote:
(08-28-2014, 02:42 PM)Melkire Wrote: In any actual encounter, Superman and Goku would befriend one another and go hit up a diner somewhere.

That's pretty much what happens in my ClarkxGoku slashfic. At first.

...please forward that to me.

On-topic... I present William Tecumseh Sherman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tec...al_warfare
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman%27s_March_to_the_Sea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorched_earth

Warren Castille · **08-28-2014, 02:54 PM**

(08-28-2014, 02:48 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: If all you care about is which side stands on top at the end, and disregard whether or not they can survive afterwards, it just feels cheap.

You know how I know you don't read comic books? Big Grin

I'm mostly kidding in good spirits; We're just arguing who would win between Spider-Man and Batman.

Zyrusticae · **08-28-2014, 03:04 PM**

(08-28-2014, 02:52 PM)Melkire Wrote:
(08-28-2014, 02:38 PM)Dogberry Wrote: Yeah, burn the magic forest. Worked in Princess Mononoke.

...so you're saying that the Elementals are going to strike out across Thanalan to hit Ul'dah. Or across the sea to hit Limsa. In their weakened state.

The relative distances and proportions don't exactly line up in your comparison... especially if guerrilla warfare is employed. Wouldn't the Elementals go after the individuals setting fire to the forest rather than the abstract entity behind them?

Well yeah, the elementals attacking the entities setting fire to the forest is more than enough to discourage the practice.

Even siege engines wouldn't be enough, unless they could build them sufficiently large and sturdy enough to withstand the ground itself being pulled from beneath them.

(08-28-2014, 02:52 PM)Melkire Wrote: On-topic... I present William Tecumseh Sherman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tec...al_warfare
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman%27s_March_to_the_Sea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorched_earth

The problem with that example is that they were mostly moving through already-settled open areas with plenty of civilization around, not skulking through an incredibly thick, wooded forest with an incredibly hostile defensive force picking at their army from every direction.

(08-28-2014, 02:54 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: You know how I know you don't read comic books?

I'm mostly kidding in good spirits; We're just arguing who would win between Spider-Man and Batman.

But those are just two individuals! I think it's a very different thing when we're discussing who would win in a three-way FFA between three enormous city-states.

Kage · **08-28-2014, 03:05 PM**

Warren means Superman and Batman.

But I'll now make it.... Superman v Batman v .... Goku!

Askier · **08-28-2014, 03:08 PM**

No matter which one is victorious at the end, the Empire would just walk in and crush what remained of the defenses of Eorzea and win.

Warren Castille · **08-28-2014, 03:11 PM**

(08-28-2014, 03:04 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: But those are just two individuals! I think it's a very different thing when we're discussing who would win in a three-way FFA between three enormous city-states.

You're still overthinking this! All the geopolitics and logic falls off. No one wants to know WHY Godzilla and the Original Megazord are fighting, we just want to see them fight!

Melkire · **08-28-2014, 03:11 PM**

(08-28-2014, 03:04 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:
(08-28-2014, 02:52 PM)Melkire Wrote:
(08-28-2014, 02:38 PM)Dogberry Wrote: Yeah, burn the magic forest. Worked in Princess Mononoke.

...so you're saying that the Elementals are going to strike out across Thanalan to hit Ul'dah. Or across the sea to hit Limsa. In their weakened state.

The relative distances and proportions don't exactly line up in your comparison... especially if guerrilla warfare is employed. Wouldn't the Elementals go after the individuals setting fire to the forest rather than the abstract entity behind them?
Well yeah, the elementals attacking the entities setting fire to the forest is more than enough to discourage the practice.

By abstract entities I mean, for example, Ul'dah when in fact there's a company of mercenaries camped out at the Shroud's border chucking the Eorzean equivalent of Molotov cocktails. Are the Elementals intelligent enough, or can they be guided, to strike out at a distant entity such as a city-state instead of merely dealing with the immediate and obvious threat?

My gut feeling tells me no, but I'm not familiar enough with 1.0 lore to say either way. My impression from the early 2.0 CNJ quests is that the Elementals merely lash out indiscriminately.

(08-28-2014, 03:04 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:
(08-28-2014, 02:52 PM)Melkire Wrote: On-topic... I present William Tecumseh Sherman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tec...al_warfare
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman%27s_March_to_the_Sea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorched_earth
The problem with that example is that they were mostly moving through already-settled open areas with plenty of civilization around, not skulking through an incredibly thick, wooded forest with an incredibly hostile defensive force picking at their army from every direction.

I don't see why you'd need to skulk through a forest when the plan is to burn down what's in front of you before you progress. Otherwise a fair point: I linked General Sherman to illustrate the philosophy, not the practicality.

(08-28-2014, 03:05 PM)ExKage Wrote: Warren means Superman and Batman.

But I'll now make it.... Superman v Batman v .... Goku!

As always, the answer comes down to, "Does Batman get a Green Lantern Ring? If not, how much prep time does he get?"

EDIT: And Dogberry, Nero, if we're going to be referencing movies as arguments, I reference Avatar.

Aya · **08-28-2014, 03:14 PM**

Zrusticae! You're thinking way too hard!Â This is a fun-time thread!Â Grab some peanuts, light a cigar, sit back and enjoy :-]

Kage · **08-28-2014, 03:24 PM**

You better be referencing Cameron's Avatar and not the last airbender movie..

Also, if Batman gets the Green lantern's ring wouldn't Superman?

Gridania also has the Sylphs and Ramuh. Burning the Shroud down means the wrath of King Mog and Ramuh coming down on the invaders.

Warren Castille · **08-28-2014, 03:28 PM**

Bats is a Yellow Lantern you dorks.

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Melkire · **08-28-2014, 03:28 PM**

(08-28-2014, 03:24 PM)ExKage Wrote: You better be referencing Cameron's Avatar and not the last airbender movie..

Also, if Batman gets the Green lantern's ring wouldn't Superman?

Gridania also has the Sylphs and Ramuh. Burning the Shroud down means the wrath of King Mog and Ramuh coming down on the invaders.

Yes, Cameron's.

The age-old argument goes that Batman is an incredibly determined, resolute individual with an iron will, and that giving him a Green Lantern Ring - which operates off the user's will - is an upgrade of such drastic proportions that he could feasibly take on Superman and win (mind you, not All-Star Superman... don't even get me started on THAT).

Assuming that the Sylphs and the Moogles have the resources on hand to summon them, yes.

EDIT: Dear Warren, why_not_both.jpg

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The three nations are at war, who wins?

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes