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Iex · **10-22-2014, 05:32 PM**

Hmm, lot of Echo talk but most folks in this thread do notseem to RP a character with it. So I will pipe up as a character who as the Echo. Grave Shadow has the echoâ€¦ and hates every damn second of it.

First, I guess, his particularly only really triggersmemories around death or the dead. That is pretty much the only time I directly RP it, and rarely at that. It is used as a jumping point to start an RP, the hook to fish up something much bigger. In the end you donâ€™t really care what hook you usedâ€¦ so long as you get a nice fish. Naturally, he has other benefits, such as immunity to being tempered by primal since he already is tempered and occasionally I RP him being able to understand the Doman who are speaking ill of other people in (Different Language).

He personally would rather not have the echo. To him beingtempered by Hydaelyn is almost as bad as being tempered by the other primal. He did not have a choice in it and now he is supposed to be some figure of hope and preordained destiny. It bothered him so much he spent a good five years attempting to root it out like a weed in his soul and even did some things... unbecoming of someone â€˜touched by the crystal of light.â€™ All that work only resulted in altering how his body reacts to the echo when it triggers (it isnâ€™t pretty or pleasant). Â Most the time he has to consider if what he is doing is really his own desire or the influence of a being beyond his own will.

To that end he grinds his teeth when people say â€˜may thecrystal protect youâ€™ or â€˜go with the light of the crystal.â€™ Grave, personally, believes until both Hydaelyn and the Dark One are rendered powerless and merely become part of a neutral and non-sentient aetheric flow there will be constant war beyond the control of the mortals on Eorzea. Also thatâ€¦ until that time, people cannot really be held up high or judged for darkness because all the deeds for good or ill are influenced by wills beyond the mortal realm. Mortals are just pawns in a constant gameâ€¦ rather than players.

The Echo to Graveâ€™s character is a â€˜big partâ€™ but hardlyused to elevate him to the spotlight. It is more used to form the ideology and back story of the character. Despite him having the echoâ€¦ he is NOT a warrior of light.

Edited for... formatting?

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **10-22-2014, 05:36 PM**

(10-22-2014, 05:29 PM)Eleni Wrote:
(10-22-2014, 03:22 PM)Xenedra Wrote: I don't think it's been brought up yet (totally brought up while I was typing lul), but the echo also apparently keeps those with it from being tempered by primals. This is the only reason I've thought to give it to my character, but it seemed foolish not to after how many primal fights she took part in in 1.0. I always planned to just have it be dormant and not address it since I didn't really want it .

On the flip side, we have solid confirmation that you can avoid tempering if you're aware of what's going on and dodgey enough and we also now know that some primals don't even bother with it. With all this info in my back pocket, I'm pretty much settled on dropping the echo, myself.

Wait, wait! Tempering can be avoided? This is interesting. I did not know that. Can someone elaborate, please?Â

*lights the Sounsyy signal* [insert cutscene of 1.0 Ifrit tempering here]

Yes! The Echo prevents primal tempering! XenedraÂ defined it pretty well. A primal can't temper another primal's tempered minions.

Show Content

In the 1.0 scene, Irfit basically says that the Adventurer couldn't be tempered because he "belongs to another" already. While we know of this as the Echo, for all Ifrit knew, maybe Leviathan had drowned the adventerer or something.

g0ne · **10-22-2014, 05:40 PM**

(10-22-2014, 05:36 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:
(10-22-2014, 05:29 PM)Eleni Wrote:
(10-22-2014, 03:22 PM)Xenedra Wrote: I don't think it's been brought up yet (totally brought up while I was typing lul), but the echo also apparently keeps those with it from being tempered by primals. This is the only reason I've thought to give it to my character, but it seemed foolish not to after how many primal fights she took part in in 1.0. I always planned to just have it be dormant and not address it since I didn't really want it .

On the flip side, we have solid confirmation that you can avoid tempering if you're aware of what's going on and dodgey enough and we also now know that some primals don't even bother with it. With all this info in my back pocket, I'm pretty much settled on dropping the echo, myself.

Wait, wait! Tempering can be avoided? This is interesting. I did not know that. Can someone elaborate, please?Â

*lights the Sounsyy signal* [insert cutscene of 1.0 Ifrit tempering here]

Yes! The Echo prevents primal tempering! XenedraÂ defined it pretty well. A primal can't temper another primal's tempered minions.

Show Content

Readi f you've gotten past GarudaThink about why Garuda didn't simply try to temper the kobalds and amal'jaa. Instead, she wanted them to summon their primals so she could rule over them. If she only wanted followers, she could have just tempered over, otherwise.

In the 1.0 scene, Irfit basically says that the Adventurer couldn't be tempered because he "belongs to another" already. While we know of this as the Echo, for all Ifrit knew, maybe Leviathan had drowned the adventerer or something.

What about the aware enough and dodgey part? I meant that. We have solid confirmation of what exactly?Â
Sorry if I'm asking silly questions.Â Undecided

Sounsyy · **10-22-2014, 05:45 PM**

(10-22-2014, 04:00 PM)thedemonator Wrote: I have one question for this seemed like the appropriate thread to post this question but how would you all explain to another that they were able to experience the echo?

Likely you wouldn't. At least not by name.

So one of the (personal) qualms I have with RPing the Echo, is that it's very easy for any number of characters to have... but very difficult to RP as "knowing" what exactly the Echo is.

Here's why. So in 1.0, the Player Character bears witness to a great star shower in the sky and the voice of Hydaelyn calling out to them. This is when the Player Character is gifted/cursed/chosen to bear the burden of the Echo. At level 20, you got sent to the secret base of The Path of the Twelve, an underground organization run by Minfilia. Since discovering her own powers with the Echo, Minfilia (under the guidance of Louisoux) created the organization to find others like her who had seen the Starshower and had developed strange gifts as a result. By gathering all users and acquiring their knowledge, they hoped to unravel the mysteries of the Echo. But even with the backing of Sharlayan and the Circle of Knowing, they had gleaned very little information about their gift. What they did figure out, they shared among their members. But the Echo was kept secret from all outsiders because Minfilia was afraid people would fear the Path of the Twelve's powers.

So... your character has a prophetic vision, you see a starshower, you see the mother crystal, you start jumping into other people's memories, whatever - your character wakes up with the Echo. How do you figure out what it's called? The Echo is a mysterious power not chronicled in any tome. Even the Sharlayans don't really know what it is, only that the Echo has awoken in times past. The only organization who has researched it was the Path of the Twelve, who later became the Scions, who later became almost all dead when the Garleans invaded their hideout. So unless you were a member of the Path of the Twelve pre-Calamity, or have recently joined the Scions of the Seventh Dawn post-Calamity, your character is likely not even aware of what their power is called, what it is, how to control it, how they got it, what it can even do.

Imagine how jarring that would be to someone. The 1.0 Player Character was really thrown off by the power. Being aether sick all the time, being thrust into strangers' memories at nearly every encounter. Not being able to tell what is past and what is present.

Would your character tell a stranger that was happening to them? Would they tell a friend that they might unwittingly slip into their memories? Would that friend believe them? Even post Calamity, the Echo is still not a known variable to those outside the Scions of the Seventh Dawn. (Well the Seedseers know about the Echo, but that's besides the point.)

I think it's a really really interesting concept to play with, but I also think it's very easy to fall into the trap of your character having knowledge they shouldn't if they aren't roleplaying the MSQ.

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **10-22-2014, 05:55 PM**

(10-22-2014, 05:40 PM)Eleni Wrote: What about the aware enough and dodgey part? I meant that. We have solid confirmation of what exactly?Â
Sorry if I'm asking silly questions.Â

I think that was in reference to how "normal" not-Echo-enabled people were able to defeat Titan and Leviathan. It was actually described at Fanfest! (So it's almost fresh in my mine)

Basically, think of tempering as some time of attack or skil lthe primal has to do. Maybe it's breathing fire or spraying with water, or what have you. The Company of Heroes was able to beat those primals by having shittons of people going against them. Think battle in 3 waves.

Wave 1: Inital attack, Primal tempers these people
Wave 2: Fight/Kill the tempered people
Wave 3: Attack the Primal while Wave 2 takes out Wave 1.
-repeat-

So when a person or two made it back from a primal, it wasn't as if they single-handedly defeated he primal like our Echo-enabled adventurers. Instead, they were just the couple people who managed to survive and claimed the fame.

FreelanceWizard · **10-22-2014, 05:55 PM**

So... yes, L'yhta has the Echo. However, all it gives her are:

Immunity to being Tempered; and
Occasional religious experiences of Hydaelyn speaking to her, which haven't happened in a while (a point raised in the MSQ in 2.2 and 2.3).

This latter part factors into her (private) religious beliefs and is at least some part of why she feels she's been chosen to fulfill a Great Destiny -- which is often more trouble for her than it seems insofar as it leads her to do foolish, entirely stupid things.

She doesn't have any of the other manifestations of the Echo, and given that Hydaelyn isn't exactly a commonly worshipped entity, she doesn't really like talking about it (for fear of looking weird, religious persecution, etc.). In fact, when people mention it, she tends to awkwardly try to dodge the subject. It's entirely possible to play a character who has an ability and not make it a key aspect of the character. It's also possible to not have the "full-blown, Minfilia-level" Echo. Smile

CrookedTarot · **10-22-2014, 06:02 PM**

Well then are there degrees of the Echo? From the sound of there are--if you're playing the Main Story then you have all dah powers--but if you're not and you have the Echo you're only allowed one of the three? What's more, what about Moogles? WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE MOOGLES?!

No but seriously, I've had Tarot, ICly be buddy buddy with moogles. Up until now, I've always just hand-waved his chumminess as being the reason why he can see them but others can't. Hell, it's why TAROT hand waves it. But now with this discussion I have to wonder if it IS the Echo and he's not aware? He does hella dangerous stuff all the time; he's an explorer and treasure hunter.

After reading this thread, I've come to the conclussion that 'the Echo' is to Final Fantasy in the way that 'Mutation' is to X-Men. It's a pat word used to define extra abilities that cannot be explained by the typical rules of the setting (because I don't care what you say, you can't make me believe that a genetic mutation allows [insert ridiculous X-Men power here].)

So until we get a definite answer for the Echo, what do we treat it as? A set of powers that you only get one of? A group of passive abilities called 'The Echo' because there's no other name for it? We know it comes from being tempered by the Crystal but beyond that...

Jana · **10-22-2014, 08:54 PM**

Other NPCs have been able to see the Moogle NPCs and they likely didn't all have the Echo, so I don't think you have to worry about that.

Also, since others mentioned something about the Echo feeling "tacked-on" to characters, I think part of that may be just that not everyone understands how it's supposed to work. It was only very recently that Sounssy corrected me on what I thought were the minimal parts of it, so my character hasn't had any "visions" in her background (though with where she is now, it would be an interesting time to start). And things like fighting primals are often "off-screen."

Ciel · **10-22-2014, 09:15 PM**

My character has the Echo.Â Do I actively play it in RP? No, because it's a facet of the character and not who she is.Â I look at it this way:

To the best of my knowledge, the rest of the world doesn't know what the Echo is, let alone how it might work.Â To that end, it's something a vast majority of people -without- it wouldn't understand.

Try to explain something as bizarre as a superpower to someone who doesn't have it, doesn't know the purpose or source.Â You're going to get some odd looks at best, possibly laughed at, ostracized as worst, if not mistaken for someone who's been tempered by a Primal.Â And we know what becomes of those who are tempered and later captured.Â

Or kind of take it from a perspective of one of the X-Men.Â You mean well, you might want to help people... people will not understand or like you because you are different.

As far as what Ciel has for Echo features, I keep it light and subtle.Â She has the Tempering Immunity, and the understanding of other languages.

I have made a point of not messing with the flashbacks into other peoples' memories because I feel like it toes a very delicate line between meta and player consent.Â IF I'm going to use it at all for this purpose, it's going to be something arranged well in advance with a specific person, usually for plot purposes, and not without that player's permission.Â People tend to get antsy if you lift details off of their character pages and claim to know about them when you've never met ICly.

What I might do, and someone else suggested this in another thread (I wish I could remember who it was and thank you for the idea if you see this), is to set aside a portion of my character's wiki and list out detailed snippets of what someone else with the flashback feature of the Echo -might- be able to see.Â

Doing this would potentially solve two problems:Â

1. Enable people to use the memory flashback feature of the Echo by putting something out there for them to play with.

2. By giving them something, it discourages people randomly borrowing from the rest of your character's background without permission.

CrookedTarot · **10-23-2014, 05:24 AM**

(10-22-2014, 09:15 PM)Ciel Wrote: Or kind of take it from a perspective of one of the X-Men.Â You mean well, you might want to help people... people will not understand or like you because you are different.

What I might do, and someone else suggested this in another thread (I wish I could remember who it was and thank you for the idea if you see this), is to set aside a portion of my character's wiki and list out detailed snippets of what someone else with the flashback feature of the Echo -might- be able to see.Â

Doing this would potentially solve two problems:Â

1. Enable people to use the memory flashback feature of the Echo by putting something out there for them to play with.

2. By giving them something, it discourages people randomly borrowing from the rest of your character's background without permission.

I like these ideas and ways of putting it, especially the wiki idea. That way everyone gets to have their little thing that Echo users are allowed to use with worrying about them snatching meta info. I find this much more useable than outright telling someone 'No you can't use the Echo on me' or having to go through every single person that asks and tell them word for word over and over what they MIGHT see.

CalebAgron · **10-23-2014, 07:01 AM**

With "hot topics" like this it's always best to do your homework on the subject, that way you know exactly what you should and should not do. For most roleplayers it will all boil down to how you play the echo out, etc. If your shouting to the world that you have the echo, and you know how to use it, oh and your all powerful then chances are people will give you some shiznit. But if your subtle about the power, and have your character not fully understand it, or even better not have control over it then you shouldn't run into too many lore hawks.

But I've always been a firm believer in playing what you want so long as it doesn't bring lore crashing down on everyone. I'll admit that when I start roleplaying on my White Mage, she will in fact be roleplayed as a White Mage despite some people's butt hurt on the issue. But I won't be announcing it to the world, hell she probably will never say it in character as I can't recall a time when IC Caleb was asked..."Whats your job?". But to those who have an understanding of Succor and how it works, they might realize the she is using it on her own free will, and not "asking/praying" to the elementals for it.

Anyway my 2 cents

Warren Castille · **10-23-2014, 07:31 AM**

I've roleplayed with Ciel multiple times and I never knew she had the Echo. Like, until reading this thread. That's an excellent example of it being done right.

Also, future!Sounsyy? While you're here, do we know is Hydaelyn is even a known deity-figure? She's not part of the Twelve and they've kinda been THE Religion for years and years and eras and aeons, so I'm wondering if anyone would even know her name enough to mention in public. I can't think of anything outside of MSQ mentioning her, so if people are talking about her in public wouldn't it get some strange looks?

Likewise for Zodiark. Do we even know he exists in the MSQ yet? I know we've had cutscenes, but he's yet to be identified. Admittedly, the memories of the MSQ are hazy for me at best.

Kage · **10-23-2014, 09:27 AM**

I think the first and last time Zodiark was even mentioned was right after 2.0?2.1? MSQ where the crowd of Ascians are speaking to each other.

That's a long time ago T_T;

Sounsyy · **10-23-2014, 02:23 PM**

(10-23-2014, 07:31 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: While you're here, do we know is Hydaelyn is even a known deity-figure? She's not part of the Twelve and they've kinda been THE Religion for years and years and eras and aeons, so I'm wondering if anyone would even know her name enough to mention in public.

Worshiped... eh, maybe? Public knowledge, yes, most likely. For one, the planet shares Her name. But also I get the impression that she is thought of similarly to a "Mother Nature/Mother Earth" figure. Not necessarily worshiped, but an entity that most would be familiar with. I defer to Merlwyb in the Level 14 MSQ(Limsa) "A Mizzenmast Repast."

Merlwyb Wrote:Y'shtola's conclusion is clear, and I see no reason to doubt it. You are a vessel of a higher power. This... being from your vision was the Mothercrystal. Your description matches what little we know of her. And if She has chosen you, then your deeds may yet shape the fate of nations. Keep that crystal safe. In time, I believe the Mothercrystal will make clear Her reasons for bestowing it upon you. Heed well Her words, adventurer. For it is Hydaelyn Herself who speaks.

Hmm.... unrelated but this is also the same quest where later Baderon said Sounsyy ate too much cake and called her fat. Ruddy ol' bastard.

But we also get sayings like "Walk in the light of the Crystal" or "The light of the Crystal guides you." Etc. So I imagine most people would know who Hydaelyn is. Maybe they wouldn't know much about Her many legends/myths/philosophies/etc but they would probably know Her.

I guess on the flipside, it could be argued that the Warriors of Light are the worshipers of Hydaelyn. <_< >_> Just as the Ascians are the worshipers of Zodiark.

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